How highly do you rate Laurent Koscielny?

[Raees]

I see it is generally a consensus that he is the best or in the top 3 CB's in the league. Now I am not saying that is wrong, but although i think he's a good player I just think considering how flimsy Arsenal can be in big encounters.. surely if he was that great, he'd be the rock who can galvanize that side into being a more solid outfit or am i being harsh here.

Where does he compare against the likes of Ferdinand/Vidic/Carragher/Hyppia/Terry/Carvalho league of defenders. Is he unlucky he is at Arsenal, could and should he be playing for another top side? has he underachieved in his career by staying at the Gunners...

Thoughts?

 

[Omar Little]

I think he's a tier below the defenders you mentioned but probably one of the best in the league.

 

[Dobbs]

Reminds me of Wes Brown around 2005. You know he's a good player, close to being very good,but ultimately not quite there. So you buy Vidic instead.

 

[Aboutreika18]

He's the best of a fairly mediocre bunch of CBs in the Premier League.

A level or two below other great Arsenal centre backs like Adams or Campbell.

 

[Ramshock]

He isnt top 3 for me but he is a decent CB

 

[Sammyjunn]

No where near Vidic and Ferdinand, the amount of penalties, red cards, poor defending against top6 clubs show he is nowhere near world class imo. He can be absolutely immense on his day, but mostly against lower clubs.

 

[Boycott]

Firstly...Carragher and Hyppia don't belong in that bracket. Stick Tony Adams and Sol Campbell in.

As for Koscielny - I think he's been a very good defender over the years but has never had a reliable partner He's quick to cover ground and usually a clean tackler although he can't do it all on his own. With the way Arsenal set up they have little protection and even with him in the side have been on the end of some tonkings over the years.

 

[Skills]

Good defender, massively overrated. Never been the best in the league or even top 3.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Decent but has become ridiculously overrated.

 

[Raees]

Firstly...Carragher and Hyppia don't belong in that bracket. Stick Tony Adams and Sol Campbell in.

.

Sorry mate, just thought it would be easier to refer to CB's in that 2006-08 period but yeah he's not anywhere near class of Adams or Campbell for me.

Technically he has many good attributes, but I just think if he was mentally top tier, he wouldn't be content playing for Arsenal if that makes sense.

 

[Zoo]

He lacks stature, that showed in the final of the Euro's and he makes a lot errors which don't get highlighted as much. Just in the past 2 games he has been mugged off by Hazard and then against Hull was made to look silly by Markovic.

 

[CechMate1]

I feel that him being considered one of the best in the League is more of a reflection of the lack of top class defenders in the League at present.

He's a very good defender but he isn't close to the likes of Terry, Rio, Vidic and Carvahlo. Those 4 were truly elite defenders and would have walked into any team in the world at their best

 

[kafta]

He's a good defender, but not top 3 in the league.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Was very good the last 2 years but seems to have dipped a bit this year. Not sure playing with Mustafi brings the best out of him.

 

[Boycott]

Sorry mate, just thought it would be easier to refer to CB's in that 2006-08 period but yeah he's not anywhere near class of Adams or Campbell for me.

Technically he has many good attributes, but I just think if he was mentally top tier, he wouldn't be content playing for Arsenal if that makes sense.

Fair enough mate.

I imagine why he's stayed loyal is Wenger plucked him out of obscurity. He had one season of top flight football by the time he joined Arsenal [aged 25]. He had a rough beginning but Wenger stood by him and soon he blossomed. If I were in that position I'd find it hard to then walk away.

While I think mentality in sports is key - we under-value that sometimes these choices are simply human emotions. There is no shame in wanting to stay where you feel good. If that's the case we should stop labelling players who do move mercenaries and snakes. Fans can't have it both ways.

 

[diarm]

Yeah as others have said, in the days of Bruce, Pallister, Adams, McGrath, Campbell, Stam, Rio, Vidic, Carvalho and Terry, not to mention the caliber of defender which preceded him for his national side, he'd have been seen as a very average centre back.

In a time when there is a real worldwide shortage of truly great defenders, mediocrity will always seem a little bit better by comparison, but every great side to win the premier league has been built on a great defence. That Arsenal haven't won a title in so long is no surprise when you look at the pedestal a player like Koscielny is placed on.

 

[BBRBB]

He's never been any special for France for what it's worth.

 

[AshfordLad]

As others have pointed out, Carraghar and Hyppia dont belong on that level.

Koscielny is a level or two below Terry/Carvalho but he is still the best CB in the league today. Just goes to show how shit club squads in England have become over the last 6-7 years.

 

[Nickosaur]

He's probably in the top tier of CBs in our league currently. But again, in that group, aside from probably Luiz and Alderwiereld, there aren't many top CBs in there.

 

[SwansonsTache]

As others have pointed out, Carraghar and Hyppia dont belong on that level.

Koscielny is a level or two below Terry/Carvalho but he is still the best CB in the league today. Just goes to show how shit club squads in England have become over the last 6-7 years.

I'd put Alderweireld over him this season, even though there are question marks about Toby coping with life without Vertonghen.

 

[Invictus]

If you divide some of the more prominent PL era centerbacks into rough tiers, I think he's somewhere between peak Radebe, and Jagielka; and close to Woodgate (before his transfer to Madrid).

Tier 1 ~ Ferdinand
Tier 2 ~ Hyypiä
Tier 3 ~ Radebe
Tier 4 ~ Koscielny
Tier 5 ~ Jagielka
Tier 6 ~ Cahill
Tier 7 ~ Lescott

In terms of Arsenal defenders under Wenger or in the PL era as a whole, he's 4th best after Adams, Campbell and Keown - and ahead of peak Kolo, Bould, Vermaelen, Mertesacker. Arsenal supporters are probably better placed to qualify that internal assessment when it comes to Koscienly, but that's kinda how I'd rank him.

 

[AR87]

Good defender, massively overrated. Never been the best in the league or even top 3.

This

 

[dichinero]

Has come leaps and bounds in the last two seasons. Top 3 in the league

 

[The Purist]

He can be absolutely immense on his day, but mostly against lower clubs.

I think it's kind of the opposite. He seems to play well against certain world class strikers but is often liable to get caught sleeping. Then again, so is most of our defence.

It's hard to really gauge how good he is because he plays in a team with absolutely zero defensive organisation. He does usually play well for France and there is growing adulation for him there recently. I think he's good enough to win the Premier League if he was in a team that was coached how to defend ruggedly which we simply don't do.

 

[AshfordLad]

I'd put Alderweireld over him this season, even though there are question marks about Toby coping with life without Vertonghen.

I would put them in the same ballpark. That said, Koscielny has been doing well in PL for several seasons now.

 

[Sammyjunn]

I think it's kind of the opposite. He seems to play well against certain world class strikers but is often liable to get caught sleeping. Then again, so is most of our defence.

It's hard to really gauge how good he is because he plays in a team with absolutely zero defensive organisation. He does usually play well for France and there is growing adulation for him there recently. I think he's good enough to win the Premier League if he was in a team that was coached how to defend ruggedly which we simply don't do.

I do remember a stormer against Lewandowski, but Rashford vs Kos last season, multiple battles vs Chelsea and Kane, multiple penalty giveaways. He was awful against PSG as well this season. Cavani turned him outside in.

 

[Ducklegs]

He is incredibly average.

 

[The Purist]

I do remember a stormer against Lewandowski, but Rashford vs Kos last season, multiple battles vs Chelsea and Kane, multiple penalty giveaways. He was awful against PSG as well this season. Cavani turned him outside in.

All of which I would attribute to lack of defensive organisation - particularly Cavani (excellent movement) and Rashford (won battles he had no right to win because of how poor we were).

It's easy for Alderweireld to look good when he is protected by a good defensive system and two solid defensive midfielders in front of him. We have none of the above.. so Koscielny is more liable to being caught out on an individual basis.

 

[Klopper76]

He's decent enough but gets caught out far too often to be considered a top CB. He's one of the better defenders in the league but that's not saying much at the moment.

Some Arsenal fans think he's better than he actually is.

 

[The Purist]

He's decent enough but gets caught out far too often to be considered a top CB. He's one of the better defenders in the league but that's not saying much at the moment.

Some Arsenal fans think he's better than he actually is.

From my experience, it tends to be rival fans who rate him higher than we do.

 

[TwoSheds]

I think he's very talented but always has a mistake in him and is a little bit weak. Needs a commanding partner which of course he rarely gets at Arsenal.

I would already take Bailly over him and Bailly still has plenty to learn.

Best CB in the league for now is Alderweireld.

 

[Sammyjunn]

All of which I would attribute to lack of defensive organisation - particularly Cavani (excellent movement) and Rashford (won battles he had no right to win because of how poor we were).

It's easy for Alderweireld to look good when he is protected by a good defensive system and two solid defensive midfielders in front of him. We have none of the above.. so Koscielny is more liable to being caught out on an individual basis.

Coquelin brings excellent defensive imo maybe still not enough, but even for France, he hasnt shown he is anywhere near world class which some fans imply.

 

[africanspur]

All of which I would attribute to lack of defensive organisation - particularly Cavani (excellent movement) and Rashford (won battles he had no right to win because of how poor we were).

It's easy for Alderweireld to look good when he is protected by a good defensive system and two solid defensive midfielders in front of him. We have none of the above.. so Koscielny is more liable to being caught out on an individual basis.

But Alderweirald has always been part of the best defence in the league (or second best on a few occasions) for each season he's played men's football. Including at Spurs, where we're hardly known for defensive organisation.

Its becoming just a little too often for it to be due just to who is in front of him.

As for Kos, I'd agree. Probably top 5 cbs in the league right now but the quality overall is less than it was 5-10 years ago.

 

[villain]

Probably one of the best in the league, but I think that says more about the lack of quality defenders than his ability.

 

[John_Jensen]

Was very good the last 2 years but seems to have dipped a bit this year. Not sure playing with Mustafi brings the best out of him.

He's very good, not Adams or Campbell good as some people have said but in his defence he's constantly been covering for his partner since he's been in the first team.

Could be excellent aloneside a Vidic or Campbell.

 

[The Purist]

Coquelin brings excellent defensive imo maybe still not enough, but even for France, he hasnt shown he is anywhere near world class which some fans imply.

Coquelin is an average player. If you want to see how poorly we are organised, watch Mata's goal against us again from this season. Elneny and Coquelin track the exact same run and cover the same space without once looking behind them. The edge of our box is completely open. I maintain that everything Arsenal do from a defensive standpoint is ad-libbed. These players aren't coached and therefore, it's harsh to compare them to players from other teams.

But Alderweirald has always been part of the best defence in the league (or second best on a few occasions) for each season he's played men's football. Including at Spurs, where we're hardly known for defensive organisation.

Its becoming just a little too often for it to be due just to who is in front of him.

As for Kos, I'd agree. Probably top 5 cbs in the league right now but the quality overall is less than it was 5-10 years ago.

I think you're being a tad optimistic there. You could almost count the times he played for Atleti on your fingers.

Again, I'm not denying he's a great defender because he is. I'm just saying comparing him to Koscielny is a non-starter because of how we set up by comparison to how Pochettino has you set up.

 

[africanspur]

I think you're being a tad optimistic there. You could almost count the times he played for Atleti on your fingers.

Again, I'm not denying he's a great defender because he is. I'm just saying comparing him to Koscielny is a non-starter because of how we set up by comparison to how Pochettino has you set up.

Considering he played 22 times, I wouldn't want to see your hands!

Not saying he was integral for Atletico by any means but he's done it at Ajax, Atletico, Southampton and Spurs.

The difference for us when he's there and isn't is huge. imo anyway

 

[Liver_bird]

I think it's kind of the opposite. He seems to play well against certain world class strikers but is often liable to get caught sleeping. Then again, so is most of our defence.

It's hard to really gauge how good he is because he plays in a team with absolutely zero defensive organisation. He does usually play well for France and there is growing adulation for him there recently. I think he's good enough to win the Premier League if he was in a team that was coached how to defend ruggedly which we simply don't do.

Would probably agree with this assertion, its probably quite difficult for the average fan to guage just how good defenders are in this era as the focus is mainly on high lines and expansive attacking football. I mean I dont think Cahill is top class but he's set to be part of the best defensive unit in the league yet again. I think if you swapped those two around Cahill would be far more exposed at Arsenal, whereas Kos would likely thrive at Chelsea. I've seen it at Liverpool over the years, international defenders going from beastly to useless depending on how the team is set up. When it comes to defenders a lot of pretty good ones are made to look pretty average just by the systems employed and vice-versa. If you're a good defender playing in an open system, unless you're world class week in week out you wont get the recognition for it and that type of form isnt sustainable over a long period of time.

The consensus used to be if you added a 20 goals a season striker to a well drilled side you'd win the league, I think more or less the opposite is true now, you add a WC defender to a good attacking side and you'll likely win the league. Not sure if this is the best example but its the best I can think of at the moment, I always felt Kompany in his prime was the one who held a quite brittle defensive unit together and allowed City to play more care-free. Its also why he made more mistakes than most top defenders (not a lot but relatively speaking) he was much more exposed ala Koscielny but obviously being a tier or two above him.

 

[The Purist]

Considering he played 22 times, I wouldn't want to see your hands!

Not saying he was integral for Atletico by any means but he's done it at Ajax, Atletico, Southampton and Spurs.

The difference for us when he's there and isn't is huge. imo anyway

You're not addressing my point, bud. I'm not saying he's not a great defender. I'm just expressing my opinion that comparing Arsenal defenders to other teams is pointless. We are a total anomaly in that we are seemingly not coached how to defend. It has been our downfall year after year.

Would probably agree with this assertion, its probably quite difficult for the average fan to guage just how good defenders are in this era as the focus is mainly on high lines and expansive attacking football. I mean I dont think Cahill is top class but he's set to be part of the best defensive unit in the league yet again. I think if you swapped those two around Cahill would be far more exposed at Arsenal, whereas Kos would likely thrive at Chelsea. I've seen it at Liverpool over the years, international defenders going from beastly to useless depending on how the team is set up. When it comes to defenders a lot of pretty good ones are made to look pretty average just by the systems employed and vice-versa. If you're a good defender playing in an open system, unless you're world class week in week out you wont get the recognition for it and that type of form isnt sustainable over a long period of time.

The consensus used to be if you added a 20 goals a season striker to a well drilled side you'd win the league, I think more or less the opposite is true now, you add a WC defender to a good attacking side and you'll likely win the league. Not sure if this is the best example but its the best I can think of at the moment, I always felt Kompany in his prime was the one who held a quite brittle defensive unit together and allowed City to play more care-free. Its also why he made more mistakes than most top defenders (not a lot but relatively speaking) he was much more exposed ala Koscielny but obviously being a tier or two above him.

Exactly what I was trying to put across.

 

[Boycott]

Aldewereld gets a lot of plaudits but his partner Vertonghen is pretty good too. And I'll use him as an example as Vertonghen was often seen as good with the ball at his feet but had mistakes in him when he had to defend. They used to get hammered a fair few times a season.

Then Pochettino has arrived and ironed out those mistakes culminating in Spurs being one of the best defences in Europe. Poch's team is not perfect but far more solid and consistent.

On a higher scale there's David Luiz - many saw him as a figure of fun but he's arguably been the best defender in the league this season. Conte - another excellent trainer who focuses heavily on organisation has ironed him out and implemented a system which keeps it tight.

Wenger is great at developing gifted ball players and fluent attacking teams but defence is not his best quality as we all know. Koscielny is no worse than those two but he's in a less defensively drilled team.