How long until Ole's signings also join the deadwood list?

[UpWithRivers]

For all the praise of the new signings all they have proved is that they are mid table standard. That's where we are at. Yeah they have done alright. Maybe better than our other players but still mid table standard.
The one thing I agree with is that they seem to be the right characters. Forget British. That's nonsense. What I'm talking about is players that just want to play football. Not prance about on social media etc.
Talented, hard working, want to improve, want to concentrate on football- check. Now they have to step up and prove they are at another level.
To do that they need excellent coaching and management - good luck with that boys.

 

[POF]

With the way the current team is playing, a lot of our players are being set up to fail. This United team by far the most poorly coached.

No passing patterns and players have no chemistry. You can tell that even simple things like corner and throw-in drills are not worked on the training ground. Our throw-ins are basically just throwing it at someone. Corners - hit it at the tallest player.

This "the team is poorly coached" nonsense is getting worse and worse. Not because the team is expertly coached but because those making the accusation have no idea what they're talking about.

Throw-ins? Throw-ins? Please pray tell, oh wise master tactician, which team in the EPL is the oracle when it comes to throw in set plays? What are these "throw-in drills" that other top clubs regularly use? "Throwing it at someone". Jesus wept.

 

[BeltUp]

If they do turn out to be deadwood then what has Ole got going for him? The only reason I hear people give for keeping Ole is that his three signings have been good. I think his signings have been ok. James was a bargain. AWB isn't the complete package for a wing-back. Maguire hasn't looked fantastic - Axel has impressed me more.

 

[elánius]

This "the team is poorly coached" nonsense is getting worse and worse. Not because the team is expertly coached but because those making the accusation have no idea what they're talking about.

Throw-ins? Throw-ins? Please pray tell, oh wise master tactician, which team in the EPL is the oracle when it comes to throw in set plays? What are these "throw-in drills" that other top clubs regularly use? "Throwing it at someone". Jesus wept.

United scored against Norwich from the corner (after horrible mistake from the defender) and it was a first goal from set pieces after 20 games, so something is definitely wrong with it, no doubt about that. I dont actually understand what you mean with your questions but our players dont move with or without the ball, so thats the problem with throw-ins or passing or actually everything. Player with the ball just does not have a lot of choices.

 

[davidmichael]

Maguire will be our club and permanent captain next season and is the type of leader we need on the pitch so he won’t be going anywhere for a long time.

Wan-Bissaka and James have been two of our best players this season and been a breath of fresh air for the most part, a lot of our squad that’s been around for a while could learn a thing or two from them so they won’t be going anywhere soon and nor should they.

 

[Canagel]

At the end of the season most likely.

 

[thepolice123]

This "the team is poorly coached" nonsense is getting worse and worse. Not because the team is expertly coached but because those making the accusation have no idea what they're talking about.

Throw-ins? Throw-ins? Please pray tell, oh wise master tactician, which team in the EPL is the oracle when it comes to throw in set plays? What are these "throw-in drills" that other top clubs regularly use? "Throwing it at someone". Jesus wept.

Even Stevie Wonder can tell how badly coached this side is.

We regularly lose possession from throw-in because the thrower either have no options or the players don't know where to move open up space. There was one moment in the match yesterday where AWB had no options from the throw-in and he just threw it directly at the opposition. It happened even the match before against Chelsea. Things like this are happening on a consistent basis.


And to answer to your question Liverpool have a throw-in coach. Statistically they have one of the highest % of retained possessions from throw-ins.

 

[charlenefan]

We see this with all our managers post Ferguson. The 'manager shits gold' lot overpower all the dissent at the start of this cycle, as the new set of signings become our saviours from the old useless squad members.

Then eventually you start seeing increasing dissenting voices highlighting the players weaknesses. They start to overpower the 'manager shits gold' lot. We're already seeing signs of this now with AWB and Maguire threads. Eventually most get fully engrained into the deadwood listing by the time the next manager is in place. In between all this, some of the remaining 'manager shits gold' lot will transfer the blame onto Woodward for signing the players.

I reckon by the end of the season, all 3 of Oles signings will be on course to make it.

Interesting yet rather depressing question

James - I think he's looking better than just a Championship level player at the moment albeit I dont believe he was ever bought with the thinking that he'd be a mainstay of the starting XI for the next 10 years. I think he'll eventually move down to being a squad player but as that's what he was bought for that shouldn't be seen as a negative should it?

AWB - it depends what people want from him, defensively I dont see him going the Darmian route, attack wise though he's never going to be a Kyle Walker or TAA and I suspect because of this people we get on his back eventually. As long as people curb their expectations there's no reason why he cant be our RB for the next 10 years

Maguire - could go either way this one. One thing is for damn sure, he needs a pacey CB alongside him because at the moment him and Lindelof both look like they're drowning in quick sand when trying to run back with an opposition attacker. The last few games and have shown just how immobile he is with him looking pretty stupid in lot of the chances against us. Yet to see the heroic bursts forward either but maybe that'll come with confidence. At the end he's better than what we had but even at 80m was never going to bring about the same level of transformation that VVD did at Liverpool because he's nowhere near that level

In conclusion I dont believe any will go down the complete and utter deadwood category in the next few years but conversely none will probably be looked at as signings that propel us back to where we want to be

 

[soapythecat]

Those players, along with most of the rest of the squad, just need some confidence and a run of decent results (not just lucky 1-0 wins with few attempts at goal).
Like most of the first team squad, the way the team is playing collectively is not playing into anyones hands. With results will come confidence and an improvement of individual player performances.

 

[Fosu-Mens]

Even Stevie Wonder can tell how badly coached this side is.

We regularly lose possession from throw-in because the thrower either have no options or the players don't know where to move open up space. There was one moment in the match yesterday where AWB had no options from the throw-in and he just threw it directly at the opposition. It happened even the match before against Chelsea. Things like this are happening on a consistent basis.


And to answer to your question Liverpool have a throw-in coach. Statistically they have one of the highest % of retained possessions from throw-ins.

We are so far behind on so many levels.

Under SAF our organization and standards related to training, health, preparation, improvement etc was "state of the art" or close to in some areas for many years. Our organization today does not know what "state of the art" means even if it hit them in the face. At all the other clubs in the EPL, if there is something they have struggled with for the last 1-2 matches, they will focus on this and improve on it before the next games. We see the same problems at our club for 8 months now with Set pieces, Throw-ins, our fullbacks being pressured on the ball every game because we are completely unable to play through the lines...The "organizational competence and knowledge" is non-existent or outdated at the club. The only way for this to change is to employ someone(s) that have either worked, implemented or created an organization with "state of the art" knowledge and competence in footballrelated areas.

While we might not get rid of the Glazers or Woodward without being bought by the Saudis, at least we can play the lottery(sack OGS and hope for a manager with some understanding of football today) and hope that Woodward/the Glazers appoint a manager that can improve some of the areas that the club is falling behind. Easiest would be to employ a DOF that has worked and created such a high performing environment, but this will never happen.

 

[R'hllor]

Why some find it surprising, since SAF, the moment player joins us, thats it, the level he is on when he enters, is the max level he will reach in United shirt, there is only downhill from there. Fake bunch can see that as negativity and moan about it but thats how it was so far.

We didnt improve nor raised the value of one single player we bought, pull a Coutihno? Dont make me laugh. People looking around and see players in other teams, drooling and talking nonsense like if we only had them in our team, yea just copy paste them. Players like Mane, Salah etc. Sure thing, if we bought them for 35mil. or w.e it was, we would also improve them to be or look like 100mil. players now, yep that would happen, aha.

 

[ash_86]

Around 12 years from now.

 

[Red00012]

This didn’t take long ....

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I think his signings has been the positive. Both Maguire & James IMO will play for any manager unless if we aren't playing with winger then James will not play under that manager. So I don't think both of them will be considered as deadwood.

I am still not certain with Bissaka since defensively he's great but his man marking is poor (easy to fix), offensively he has no end product (still young and can work on them), & with his current passing ability he won't play under manager like Pep. However he is still very young and I am sure he can make improvement.

 

[Nickosaur]

Say what you want about Solksjaer but Maguire, AWB and James will be important players for us, regardless of the next manager.

 

[Handré1990]

This "the team is poorly coached" nonsense is getting worse and worse. Not because the team is expertly coached but because those making the accusation have no idea what they're talking about.

Throw-ins? Throw-ins? Please pray tell, oh wise master tactician, which team in the EPL is the oracle when it comes to throw in set plays? What are these "throw-in drills" that other top clubs regularly use? "Throwing it at someone". Jesus wept.

I think he has a point. We’re just so far away from looking like a functioning team at several levels. Like the players make it up as they go along, and yes, corners and throw-ins are a part of that whole.

We like to compare ourselves with the top teams, well those teams seem to, at the very least, have a collective understanding of ‘don’t lose the ball needlessly’. Look at how we just concede possession in the most careless way most of the time from these situations. Why in the world would we buy Maguire as a solid ball-player when we can’t even trust him to receive a ball, unmarked, instead of throwing the ball into areas of the field which are stacked with defenders and our own players. Seriously felt like 70% of the second half v B’mouth was AWB throwing the ball into crowded areas where we lost every duel. Something is wrong, I’m not saying I know exactly what, but it’s plain as day.

 

[Zoo]

Do people just wrack their brains trying to find a new angle to be negative with?

 

[MikeUpNorth]

AWB signing made sense and he should be good enough with the right coaching and progression.

James was fine as a cheap punt.

Maguire was the monumentally stupid decision. One of the worst transfers we’ve ever made. Ludicrously overpriced average player. Leicester got rid of one of their weak links, received £85m in the process and are now a better team flying high in the league. They absolutely robbed us blind.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Who do you think should take the blame for decline in last 7 years if not Woodward

Only blame Woodward should take is regarding the appointment of managers IMO. Another mistake of his is giving complete free reign to those crap managers.

 

[Bobcat]

It's all doom and gloom eh? Lets revel in it. Anyway, lets look at our current "deadwood" including the ones that left

Fellaini: Most people agree he was not "United quality" and not suited to how we wanted to play. Not to bothered about selling him really, but calling him deadwood is a bit unfair considering he was useful in some cases. Also, i dont think he regressed that much with us compared to what he was at Everton.
Sanchez: The worst bit of business we have ever done. Lost a yard of pace or so the season we bought him and his entire game fell apart. Was deadwood when he arrived
Smalling: Hes only on loan so we do keep our options open. Hes a decent enough defender, just really clumsy on the ball. Not deadwood imo
Darmian: Deadwood from day 1. No doubt
Valencia: Amazing athlete in his prime, but quite limited technically. Turned into deadwood when he lost his pace
Jones/Rojo/Baily: Awful injury record and always seem to have an error in them when they play. Dont know if i would call them deadwood (maybe Rojo), but i think we can safely get rid of them and dont lose to much
Maguire: Not spectacular so far, but very solid imo. And keep in mind hes only 26. Still got his best years ahead of him. Unless he falls of a cliff either literally or form wise, hes not going to become deadwood
Shaw: I want him to do well, but hes always just a gust of wind away from another injury. I thought he would be our leftback for years to come, but considering he spends about 3/4 of the season sidelined, hes deadwood sadly
Young: Think he gets slagged of a lot unfairly. Yeah, hes not very good, but hes a 34 year old winger moonlighting as a fullback. Deadwood? Yeah, probably, but hes been a model professional and is obviously made from steel since hes never injured and plays a lot of fecking football for his age
AWB: The best defensive fullback i have seen. Nothing gets past him. Can work on his crossing, but barring a serious injury hes not becoming deadwood anytime soon. Not a chance
Fred/Pereira/Lingaard: Deadwood
Mata/Matic: Deadwood, but mostly because of age. Especially Mata was quite good for us for a couple of years, though he never replicated the form when he became POTY at Chelsea.
James: Take set pieces out of the equation and hes our most productive player this year. Maybe hes just having a great start and it turns out hes shit, but i dont see why that would be the case. As long as he packs on some muscle hes going to be solid imo

So, many of our "deadwoods" have become so simply because of age(Matic, Mata, Sanchez, Young) and was very capable players once, but should have been replaced about 2-3 years ago. Some are deadwood because they can stay fit for more than two matches in a row (Shaw, Jones, Baily, Rojo) and regress as players because of this. The rest are just shit (Darmian, Fred, Pereira, Lingaard)

AWB, Maguire and James though are all very young for their respective positions, so there is no risk of their legs falling off just yet. Maguire has also played at a high level in the PL for years so i would be really surprised if he suddenly turned shit. AWB is still young, but imo looks like a once a generation talent. If he turns into deadwood i am giving up football altogether. James i dont know, but considering his good start i would be more surprised if he turned to shit than if he turned out alright

Compare these three to the other deadwood we have that dont have an age or injury excuse. James and AWB have so far delivered quite a few MOTM performances and that cant be said for Lingaard, Fred, Darmian and Pereira. Lingaard has been shit pretty much his entire United career bar a few good spells where he has been unplayable, where as Darmian, Fred and Pereira has looked like deer in traffic pretty much the entire time they have been here and has at most managed to string together 2-3 acceptable performances before looking shit again

So when does Oles signings turn into deadwood? Hopefully never

 

[ColvaleGoa]

Tbf I have already seen memes of Fans slating AWB. There is no hope especially after a loss.

 

[11101]

Maguire is already halfway there, the Smalling fans are out in force now we no longer have his weekly performances to remind us of why we let him leave.

James will have a rough spell soon enough, he's only young. I actually worry with his style of play he could pick up a big injury and his pace is a big part of why he is so exciting.

AWB is probably the safest but people are already asking why he's not flying down the wing every 5 minutes.

 

[Kurton]

I don't think they are ever going to be labeled as flops. Like with Ole, there will always be a section of fans who in order to keep the narrative that Ole has done well at least in terms of purchases will keep on making excuses for the players he bought/will buy. There will never be an objective assessment of Ole or his buys, people will keep on hanging on to the romanticism and nostalgia.

This is not to say that there are already flops just as they are not already successes either as some had deemed them to be. It's too early to pass any sort of judgment on Maguire, James, or AWB, unlike Ole who has had enough time and hasn't shown any sort of progress.

 

[bosnian_red]

People love to pick at a teams best bits for not doing better when the team is struggling. It's strange really. Instead of focusing on the weak points that need fixing like the midfield and a coaching system to link it all together, they criticize our defenders because they can't keep clean sheets in every game (only sometimes).

If a big team conceded just 1 goal in every game over a season, I'd expect by the end of the season them to be up there close to the top. Most big teams can average more than 1 goal a game. Our defence really isnt the problem these days yet you see so many criticizing Wan Bissaka and Maguire. As with even the best, they will get criticized with everyone else during bad runs and get praised during good runs, irrespective of their own performances.

 

[United Hobbit]

Maguire is already halfway there, the Smalling fans are out in force now we no longer have his weekly performances to remind us of why we let him leave.

James will have a rough spell soon enough, he's only young. I actually worry with his style of play he could pick up a big injury and his pace is a big part of why he is so exciting.

AWB is probably the safest but people are already asking why he's not flying down the wing every 5 minutes.

Interesting I'm not the only one who fears for James getting an injury, I can see a late challenge on him causing a serious injury, or even a frustrated challenge on him, I hope I'm wrong but thought this from the Chelsea game

James: Pleased with how he has started so far, he is one of the first names on the team sheet despite being purchased to be developed and eased in. Think this is partly due to injury however on being pitched into a starting role due to this he has, through his performances, made him very hard to put back on the bench. Even if we do end up upgrading him, he will be a useful asset to have on the bench to bring on with say 20 minutes left to run at teams, he has a decent cross and shot power. Yes there are areas that need work however we knew that when we purchased him, he was never signed as the finished article. Yes I have my concerns whether the coaching set up is suitable and whether they have the coaching skills to improve players however that is a different question. Would we have these reservations if Klopp or Pep or SAF were coaching him? Very likeable attitude you sense he would be willing to listen to coaching and work hard to improve rather than feel he has already made it. Goes down too easily at times for my liking, yes sometimes its getting clipped at the sheer speed he runs at however would like to see less of him on the floor, surprised Ole hasnt spoken to him about it as it could actually lead to him getting less protection from the referees and genuine free kicks etc not given.

AWB: I like how he is doing so far- regarding getting forward I would like to see him improve in that area however this was one of the main issues raised when we were being linked with him- however we dont know what he is being told- if Ole wanted him to stay back and he was constantly bombing forward and being caught out of position, we would be criticising him for being reckless. I dont watch much of Palace to know how defensive they are- I was under the impression they are pretty old school type defense and like I stated we dont know what we are telling him- I cant remember for the life of me where I read it but I think it was an interview with Brandon Williams after the Partizan game and I think he said Ole gave him permission to go forward- we dont know what Ole's instructions are. Also we revert to the same question I raised with James- are the coaches able to improve his forward play? Are they actually focusing on this? We do not know. I think as well the likes of TAA are so good we use them as a benchmark however Liverpool's defence is leaky, AWB's main job is a defender, I am getting annoyed by the leaking at least a goal a game however if we had a better midfield would this protect the defence better? Also has TAA always been that good going forward or has he been coached to be like that? One thing that does make me gasp at time during games is while his tackling style is impressive I do see him potentially getting red cards as it can look quite wild at times.

Maguire: probably the least "impressive" of our signings so far. I'd say he has done ok. The corner routine of trying to place it on his head for him to head back in is driving me mad however this isnt him deciding said routine. Should have had a couple of goals for us, one chance he had recently forgotten who it was against, he really should have scored. Wonder if he is regretting leaving Leicester! I wonder if part of the reason hes looked a little shaky at times is due to what is going on around him eg the questionable midfield, Lindelof making him nervous, Young not being a natural defender etc. Yes as an 80m defender, being talked about as a potential captain, he should be able to Marshall them more efficiently but its potentially adding to his slightly shaky performances. It will be interesting to see him paired with Tuanzebe then either Shaw or Williams on the left. I wonder if the pressure of the price tag is also affecting him, however slightly. Due to the price tag he will also constantly be compared with VVD. Perhaps as well he is the opposite of James- with James we had low expectations due to him being from the championship and low cost- with both Maguire and AWB there were much higher expectations due to the cost and them knowing the league and having much higher benchmarks to compare them with eg TAA and VVD.

I think all of them will be fine, however I will continue to hold my reservations about our coaching staff's ability to improve them. If they start going backwards like so many players have here, wider questions need asking, especially if it is all 3 of them.

 

[LDUred]

All three of the new signings have made an improvement to the overall set up and I wouldn't be surprised if they enjoyed long careers with us. None has been particularly outstanding but they have hardly been flops or continual feck-ups a la Phil Jones/Sanchez. They have been, if anything, reliable.

We're short in other areas, most obviously in midfield. Until we fix the lack of creativity there we're not going to be making much progress.

 

[Alfie092]

AWB - IMO will be brilliant for us for several years to come but he needs to continue to develop and work on his attacking game.

James - Was a cheap purchase so even if he doesn't work out it won't have costed us too much and we may even make our money back or even profit from selling him if we did. James however, has impressed me more than I thought he would, saying that, still not sure if he is the long-term solution to being a regular starting player and would need to see more from him on a consistent basis. Think he would be at least a good squad player as an option off the bench for years to come.

Maguire - I was all for signing Maguire and still am as I believe he is a good defender but isn't a world beater. Soon to enter his prime so hoping he can show why we paid all that money for him. I do think we need to play a more pacey and athletic CB next to him like a Tuanzebe or a fit Bailly (be a miracle) to see the best of Harry as Lindelof is too similar to him for my liking, just Maguire is a better version who is an aerial threat and more physical. At the world record price we paid for a defender, we should have gone in for a world class CB like Koulibaly, even though we probably would have had to fork out more money.

 

[JJ12]

What a depressing thread idea

 

[CR1]

James I've never seen play a bad game for us. Even against Bournemouth when the team didn't play well collectively he had a few good runs with the ball. Think he has 3 goals and 2 assists so far. If he and other players improve their finishing both those numbers could be the double. Done very well so far.

AWB potentially doesn't matter that much that he's a bit limited offensively if we tweak our tactics a little. If Williams is the LB and pushes forward a lot, maybe together with one of the CBs, then AWB and the other CB can stay back. Done very well so far.

Maguire perhaps wasn't my first-choice (though I of course wanted us to sign him) but I think he's done very well so far too.

All three have room for improvement but talking about them as potential deadwood is exaggerated. The key will be further signings and also individual and collective improvements on the training pitch along with tactical tweaks that will create synergies. Look at Liverpool's starting eleven, individually they are not all world class players but they make each other better.

 

[Bestietom]

Some fans keep focusing on new players just to find a fault so as they can come on here, and scold him. How immature is this.

 

[Eckers99]

I think it's more likely they end up forming the nucleus of our next decent side.

 

[Irwin99]

Do people just wrack their brains trying to find a new angle to be negative with?

Some fans keep focusing on new players just to find a fault so as they can come on here, and scold him. How immature is this.

Maybe it is a bit negative but I can see both sides as people keeping throwing this argument that our signings have been a success and our three best players and honestly it comes across as a bit desperate at times. They're not exactly tearing up the league with their performances but they haven't been dreadful either. Against all expectations i'd say James has been by far the best. In fact i'd probably say that him and McTominay have been the only consistent + points this season so far. Maguire's form has dropped off from a very strong start and AWB has strengths and weaknesses that are very obvious to see. From the evidence so far, I'd say our defence has improved very marginally from last season but our attack is undoubtedly weaker.

It's way too early to fully judge either way but if (when) another manager comes in I think there's enough quality there to work with no matter what the manager's system.

 

[momo83]

Maguire already not as good as when he first joined and nowhere near as dominant as he was at Leicester... doubt under Ole he’ll do a VVD and improve even more after a a big move.

AWB.. not noticed any difference in his play, and really doubt under Ole he’ll add the attacking part. Or develop any better.

 

[gerdm07]

I really like our signings from the summer and I think they will be part of United for many years. It's early but last summer was our best transfer window in years. That alone means OGS is on the right track and should be given more time. If he has two more windows like that then we could be a legitimate top 3 team in the league by next Fall.

 

[Andycoleno9]

James will be good for any manager. Will he be first 11 player i don't know but he is kind of player who is useful for every manager. And type of a player who fans love.
Awb's lack of attacking play is obvious but good manager will make him better and he will be our rock solid first choice right back for years. But if Ole stays, AWB will get a lot of stick because under Ole he will not raise his attacking ability and so far it is less than average

And now comes big finale( i already know that i will pay for this).:
Harry Maguire is very good defender in one system but only decent defender in another. His lack of speed and slow movement can't be fixed. He will get praise while Ole is here because Ole's defensive style suits Maguire. But with attacking manager flaws will be more highlighted, he will play because he must( 80mil reasons) so he will get a lot of criticsm.

 

[Karlos PFC]

Maguire is already the Johny Evans of the rich (Oh the irony). A nothing player too overhyped cause.. young English lad. Should have never buy him, while we had an (unproven up to that point) but excellent player like Tuanzebe.

AWB is a terrific player and when a proper manager comes (hopefully soon) he will up his game.

James has a lot of potential but if he doesn't evolve in the next 2-3 years, he will end up Valencia 2.0

 

[RamblingRebel]

I think after a proper rebuild and once Utd are back to a proper team competing for honours on all fronts DJ will be a squad player/backup. AWB and Maquire will be a good options until the squad is sorted and back challenging and only an elite player in their postition will replace them. That assuming Ole is still at OT to oversee the rebuild.

Reality though is there are so many positions in this squad where the players are not up to scratch any new manager will not be quick to get rid of them and sort other areas out first.

 

[Tom Cato]

We see this with all our managers post Ferguson. The 'manager shits gold' lot overpower all the dissent at the start of this cycle, as the new set of signings become our saviours from the old useless squad members.

Then eventually you start seeing increasing dissenting voices highlighting the players weaknesses. They start to overpower the 'manager shits gold' lot. We're already seeing signs of this now with AWB and Maguire threads. Eventually most get fully engrained into the deadwood listing by the time the next manager is in place. In between all this, some of the remaining 'manager shits gold' lot will transfer the blame onto Woodward for signing the players.

I reckon by the end of the season, all 3 of Oles signings will be on course to make it.

AWB has made one costly mistake all season. Is this a thread just for the sake of making a thread to complain about something?

 

[Tom Cato]

Is it?

The only way it looks good is if you built a narative that it is, facts on the paper is we're abysmal defensive wise.

I'm a very pragmatic person, if we're good it should translate to result. You honestly can't say we're good and have a bright future ahead of us when you're 12th. You really can't

Our GAA of 1 sets us at 38 goals allowed on the season. Statistically that averages the third stingiest team in any given season the last 8 Premier League seasons. And that is with that GAA expected to go down.

But by all means, continue with the 'absymal' narrative. Our defense has NOTHING to do with our league position. Its all on the boys up front.

 

[Beans]

I would say the signings have been the only good thing about Ole's tenure. Strange thing to complain about. Or is the point to complain about those that ask us to take a positive attitude and "back" the players and not dwell on their shortcomings?

Red Cafe is a strange place in that it's got a large contingent of such posters, and even when things have been at our worst Post-Fergie we've had more people asking for time and patience then not among the better posters. I do tend to filter out some of the less verbose whiners, and the match day threads.

On the other hand, people were complaining all day long when United made 3 CL finals in 4 years! So it all gets a little tedious. We certainly need more analysis and fewer statements that aren't backed up by argument.