HS2

[Dante]

Said before in the thread that a bunch of my mates are working on HS2 as archaeologists. Spoke to them today about it considering the news and they all reckon that it will still be going ahead and the murmurings amongst most people are that if anything, some parts of it will be scrapped rather than all of it (the North if anything). I hope for the industries sake that it will still be going ahead otherwise a lot of archaeology companies are gonna be fecked.

Ugh.

If I had to choose, I'd prefer a better connected north, than a better connected Manchester-London.

Getting from Manchester to London is already pretty quick. But to get from here to Leeds, Liverpool or Sheffield is a lot slower and more unpredictable.

If the North of England could become one highly connected pseudo-Metropolis, it would do wonders for the region imo. You could feasibly live in Leeds, work in Manchester and then go for an afternoon meeting in Liverpool and back, without needing an overnight stay.

 

[11101]

The capacity argument is a bit null & void really, the current West Coast Mainline has bundles of capacity. If it was about capacity then HS2 wouldn't be a solely high speed line.

No it doesn't. The maximum limit out of Euston and through certain bottlenecks is 20 trains per hour, in the very best case. The practical limit is 16. It is currently running 15.

More efficient timetabling and adding on more carriages will give a few percentage points improvement, but HS2 will double capacity and future proof the line for decades.

 

[F-Red]

No it doesn't. The maximum limit out of Euston and through certain bottlenecks is 20 trains per hour, in the very best case. The practical limit is 16. It is currently running 15.

More efficient timetabling and adding on more carriages will give a few percentage points improvement, but HS2 will double capacity and future proof the line for decades.

In reality there's only 2/3 trains max per day which is full to bursting and that is down to the peak ticket timing, not because of a limit on trains. I used to travel three times a week into Euston for work. Combine that with an over requirement of first class carriages on the current trains and they're not even attempting on addressing the issues in front of them.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Ugh.

If I had to choose, I'd prefer a better connected north, than a better connected Manchester-London.

Getting from Manchester to London is already pretty quick. But to get from here to Leeds, Liverpool or Sheffield is a lot slower and more unpredictable.

If the North of England could become one highly connected pseudo-Metropolis, it would do wonders for the region imo. You could feasibly live in Leeds, work in Manchester and then go for an afternoon meeting in Liverpool and back, without needing an overnight stay.

Indeed. We’ll get shafted though, as usual. Seems to me the government are looking to scale back investment because of Brexit.

 

[11101]

In reality there's only 2/3 trains max per day which is full to bursting and that is down to the peak ticket timing, not because of a limit on trains. I used to travel three times a week into Euston for work. Combine that with an over requirement of first class carriages on the current trains and they're not even attempting on addressing the issues in front of them.

There's not much point having excess capacity if it's at a time when nobody wants to use it.

 

[0le]

In reality there's only 2/3 trains max per day which is full to bursting and that is down to the peak ticket timing, not because of a limit on trains. I used to travel three times a week into Euston for work. Combine that with an over requirement of first class carriages on the current trains and they're not even attempting on addressing the issues in front of them.

Peak times are not the fault of the railways however. A typical business operates from 9am to 5pm and therefore this is when people are more likely to travel on weekdays. Just because a train is "half empty" during off-peak is irrelevant if most people travel to work during those peak times.

 

[sun_tzu]

https://infrastructure.planninginspectorate.gov.uk/wp-content/ipc/uploads/projects/TR050004/TR050004-003956-7.5. Rail Operations Report.pdf

Page 32...



https://www.networkrail.co.uk/feeds...ail-collaborate-to-increase-railway-capacity/

Also page 32

.
3.3.2 Network Rail’s investment programme (in parallel with developments such as HS1 and HS2) then
focuses on seeking to respond to forecast growth in passenger and freight traffic through capacity
enhancement.

So they are factoring in HS2 happening to have sufficient capacity ongoing

As highlighted by the very last part of the same reports conclusions

.
. Through this process, paths would be sought by train operators to and from Rail Central during
the interpeak hours and overnight on an incremental basis, over several years, in line with customer
demand and network capability, the latter expanding over time with the construction of HS2.

So yeah the report you quotes own conclusions seem to suggest HS2 is critical for future capacity

 

[F-Red]

There's not much point having excess capacity if it's at a time when nobody wants to use it.

You're missing the point, nobody wants to use it because they're paying an extra £100 each way for travelling 60/90 minutes - they would rather wait. If they address the peak time issue, then they will solve the Euston evening exit issues. I've sat on peak time trains out of Euston and there's carriages barely 20% full. They can't put their head in the sand and say that £86bn is going to be better spent on adding some more lines for more trains, because they can't sort their timetables out.

 

[VeevaVee]

If the North of England could become one highly connected pseudo-Metropolis, it would do wonders for the region imo. You could feasibly live in Leeds, work in Manchester and then go for an afternoon meeting in Liverpool and back, without needing an overnight stay.

Pretty easy to do that anyway. I travel an hour to Manchester on the train most days and Leeds is the same. Liverpool only an hour away too, and 1hr30 from Leeds. I wouldn't complain about faster travel though. Certainly wouldn't complain about nicer trains (with seats that aren't weirdly low to the ground, causing pins and needles when you can't stretch out).

 

[Steven Seagull]

Scrap trident and use the money to power the north, scotland and wales.

 

[F-Red]

As highlighted by the very last part of the same reports conclusions

So yeah the report you quotes own conclusions seem to suggest HS2 is critical for future capacity

I think you're missing the point, i'm challenging the view that people are suggesting that HS2 should be built for capacity reasons and solely that as to why to spend nearly £100bn. First it was quick trains, and then it was capacity. I'm not contesting that HS2 won't assist with capacity, basic calculations will show that more lines = more capacity.

My challenge was that people are saying that the WCML is full to capacity, i'm simply saying that isn't true. The Government & Network Rail should fill the spare capacity and look for efficiencies on the existing service before trying to pull the wool over people's eyes that £100bn of money is best spent for a quicker service between Birmingham and London.

 

[11101]

You're missing the point, nobody wants to use it because they're paying an extra £100 each way for travelling 60/90 minutes - they would rather wait. If they address the peak time issue, then they will solve the Euston evening exit issues. I've sat on peak time trains out of Euston and there's carriages barely 20% full. They can't put their head in the sand and say that £86bn is going to be better spent on adding some more lines for more trains, because they can't sort their timetables out.

You have no idea if that 20% occupied carriage is earning more money than a full one. Passenger numbers don't determine yield. Still, even with perfect fares, timetabling and longer trains it's still only a small increase in capacity, around 20%. With the rise in passenger traffic it would only be a matter of years before it was at its limit.

Heathrow is the same. They have bled every last bit of capacity out of the two runways there and completely missed that whilst they need it right now, it will take decades to build.

 

[F-Red]

You have no idea if that 20% occupied carriage is earning more money than a full one. Passenger numbers don't determine yield. Still, even with perfect fares, timetabling and longer trains it's still only a small increase in capacity, around 20%. With the rise in passenger traffic it would only be a matter of years before it was at its limit.

It's not about how much it earns and i have no interest in the semantics of whether a half full train during peak is making more than a full off peak train, the reasons we're being told for building HS2 is down to speed & capacity. If capacity is such an issue, they're simply not addressing it. Whether it earns £10 or £1m, there are empty carriages due to the poor operation of the WCML - i don't see the difficulty in exploring and addressing that issue first.

Heathrow is the same. They have bled every last bit of capacity out of the two runways there and completely missed that whilst they need it right now, it will take decades to build.

I disagree. There's better arguments to create high speed links between other London airports and expand them quicker.

 

[0le]

If capacity is such an issue, they're simply not addressing it. Whether it earns £10 or £1m, there are empty carriages due to the poor operation of the WCML - i don't see the difficulty in exploring and addressing that issue first.

Your objections seems to be "why spend money on a big project when we can make this route more efficient". No one denies some parts of the WCML can be made more efficient. But then what do you do when all that is achieved? HS2 is a long term project - whilst it is being built, a sensible government would continue to better utilize the existing network and deal with some of the inefficiency you raise. But simply doing this is not enough, which is why we need (a project like) HS2 to be delivered.

EDIT - added brackets

 

[golden_blunder]

Surely if the UK fancies itself post brexit as some kind of Uber trading island the right thing to do is to invest in the future by upgrading the infrastructure?

You’ll need all those trains for moving the coal around again

 

[711]

There's not much point having excess capacity if it's at a time when nobody wants to use it.

Correct. You can move a certain number of people to off-peak times with ticketing policy but there's a limit to that, most of the tremendous off-peak growth has been from optional travel.

As it happens I think the HST review is no more than clearing the decks ready for an imminent election, shooting the fox of those who are against HST with a 'don't worry, we're having a review' answer ready packaged to give for Question Time. They've promised the review will be quick, but you can guarantee the conclusion won't be out before the election.

 

[11101]

It's not about how much it earns and i have no interest in the semantics of whether a half full train during peak is making more than a full off peak train, the reasons we're being told for building HS2 is down to speed & capacity. If capacity is such an issue, they're simply not addressing it. Whether it earns £10 or £1m, there are empty carriages due to the poor operation of the WCML - i don't see the difficulty in exploring and addressing that issue first.

I disagree. There's better arguments to create high speed links between other London airports and expand them quicker.

Both very true in an ideal world, but it's not an ideal world.

It IS about how much a train earns. 10 people paying £100 makes more money than 50 people paying £10. I don't know of any rail network on the planet that makes money, so unless you want to pay even more for fares, that's the way it's got to be.

Plus, your experience of 80% empty carriages doesn't hold true most of the time. Trains are often absolutely rammed. Some people can travel at different times but most can't. The government would not have spent £400m on lengthening the Pendolinos if they could just shift the timetables around a bit, and there is talk about adding another extra carriage now. That might buy another 10 years of capacity but then what? It is too late to start building a new line then, it needs to be started now. Plan ahead.


Likewise with Heathrow. There has long been talk about linking it with Gatwick, but no airlines want to go to Gatwick. It's great in theory but in reality it's a non starter.

 

[SilentWitness]

It will no doubt get scrapped and to be honest I don't see it as essential anyway.

What would actual make a big difference to the northern cities, is a quicker train link between Liverpool and say Leeds/Newcastle.

I know this was originally meant to be happening, but haven't heard much about it for a long while.

You won't hear much because they're still in the first phases of it. It all sounds very long and dragged out in terms of the initial archaeological excavations - drug tests everyday - slow progress - actual build work for it is far off.

Ugh.

If I had to choose, I'd prefer a better connected north, than a better connected Manchester-London.

Getting from Manchester to London is already pretty quick. But to get from here to Leeds, Liverpool or Sheffield is a lot slower and more unpredictable.

If the North of England could become one highly connected pseudo-Metropolis, it would do wonders for the region imo. You could feasibly live in Leeds, work in Manchester and then go for an afternoon meeting in Liverpool and back, without needing an overnight stay.

I think everyone would prefer that, but the North always gets fecked off.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Ugh.

If I had to choose, I'd prefer a better connected north, than a better connected Manchester-London.

Getting from Manchester to London is already pretty quick. But to get from here to Leeds, Liverpool or Sheffield is a lot slower and more unpredictable.

If the North of England could become one highly connected pseudo-Metropolis, it would do wonders for the region imo. You could feasibly live in Leeds, work in Manchester and then go for an afternoon meeting in Liverpool and back, without needing an overnight stay.

Aye. My, probably very naive, stance on HS2 has always been tentative support as putting some money up to actually get something done that will tangibly improve the train network seemed better than nothing, which is virtually what we've had after many empty promises from DfT. If we could cancel HS2 and guarantee the same pot of money would be used to strengthen the entire existing network, such as the long-overdue east-west stuff you're talking about in the North, that would be great but I'm sure that wouldn't happen in practice; they'd find something else to piss the money away on (Crossrail 2.5?) before they did anything for our creaking mess of a system.

What we may now see is the worst of both worlds from the bird in the hand, in that they may cancel the stretch into West London, wise from a cost/benefit standpoint, but also most of the northern aspects of the project too. It would be a disgusting smack in the face but one that wouldn't surprise any of us.

 

[JPRouve]

So I'm a little bit confused here, how long is the train journey between Manchester and Liverpool on average. And how much do you generally pay?

 

[Oggmonster]

Ugh.

If I had to choose, I'd prefer a better connected north, than a better connected Manchester-London.

Getting from Manchester to London is already pretty quick. But to get from here to Leeds, Liverpool or Sheffield is a lot slower and more unpredictable.

If the North of England could become one highly connected pseudo-Metropolis, it would do wonders for the region imo. You could feasibly live in Leeds, work in Manchester and then go for an afternoon meeting in Liverpool and back, without needing an overnight stay.

Agree with this.

It takes over an hour to get from parts of North to South Manchester and most the time there's a couple of transfers on the train. It's easier for me at the moment to get to London than it is North Manchester.

So I'm a little bit confused here, how long is the train journey between Manchester and Liverpool on average. And how much do you generally pay?

It's about an hour and a fiver on a train depending on the time of travel.

 

[JPRouve]

It's about an hour and a fiver on a train depending on the time of travel.

An hour seems very long, it's the same distance than Montpellier-Nimes which generally takes between 26 and 45 minutes depending on how many stops it makes. But you also have trains that stops at every gare stations which takes between 36 minutes and an hour. We virtually pay the same price around 5€ in TER.

 

[11101]

An hour seems very long, it's the same distance than Montpellier-Nimes which generally takes between 26 and 45 minutes depending on how many stops it makes. But you also have trains that stops at every gare stations which takes between 36 minutes and an hour. We virtually pay the same price around 5€ in TER.

It's actually 20 quid for a day return on any train, dropping a few quid if you take the slow service or go off peak. There are about 10 different tickets you can buy and most can't be used on all trains. It's only 5 if you buy in advance.


Italy is distance based, i think the same as France, so it is about €5 regardless of time or train for a similar length journey. The only exceptions are the high speed lines.

 

[JPRouve]

It's actually 20 quid for a day return on any train, dropping a few quid if you take the slow service or go off peak. There are about 10 different tickets you can buy and most can't be used on all trains. It's only 5 if you buy in advance.


Italy is distance based, i think the same as France, so it is about €5 regardless of time or train for a similar length journey. The only exceptions are the high speed lines.

That's correct. An example of the worst case, here I have a TGV ticket that I took at the train station during rush hour and 20 minutes before the train arrived, it costed me 12.9€.

 

[Sassy Colin]

fecks sake, they knocked down a really good pub for this.

 

[sun_tzu]

Correct. You can move a certain number of people to off-peak times with ticketing policy but there's a limit to that, most of the tremendous off-peak growth has been from optional travel.

As it happens I think the HST review is no more than clearing the decks ready for an imminent election, shooting the fox of those who are against HST with a 'don't worry, we're having a review' answer ready packaged to give for Question Time. They've promised the review will be quick, but you can guarantee the conclusion won't be out before the election.

Wasn't the same done regarding Heathrow runway as well in one of the elections.
As you say basically kick the can down the road to the other side of an election?

 

[0le]

Correct. You can move a certain number of people to off-peak times with ticketing policy but there's a limit to that, most of the tremendous off-peak growth has been from optional travel.

As it happens I think the HST review is no more than clearing the decks ready for an imminent election, shooting the fox of those who are against HST with a 'don't worry, we're having a review' answer ready packaged to give for Question Time. They've promised the review will be quick, but you can guarantee the conclusion won't be out before the election.

Same thing happened with Crossrail, which had been suggested for decades. Parts of the route for Crossrail 2 have also been safeguarded for many many years as well yet here we are still going through the motions. Thameslink 2000 programme, still to be delivered fully until next year. I'm sure there are many examples up North as well, the slow removal of pacers may be one?

 

[Massive Spanner]

Never thought I'd see so many people complaining about building public transport in their country. I fecking wish we'd do shit like this in Ireland!

 

[P-Nut]

You won't hear much because they're still in the first phases of it. It all sounds very long and dragged out in terms of the initial archaeological excavations - drug tests everyday - slow progress - actual build work for it is far off.



I think everyone would prefer that, but the North always gets fecked off.

I work for Network rail so usually get small bits of info through about what the upcoming plans are.

At the moment it seems to just be improving the old railway we've currently got in place to make it more reliable to failures.

I work in Manchester as well, so any northern hub would be running straight through here. It'll likely be the next control period after the one started that things start to ramp up.

 

[Buster15]

The fact is that as a country, we are abysmal at pushing through major infrastructure projects.
And yet our forefathers were brilliant at it. The bulk of the railway tracks were built, by hand many many decades ago.
Whenever such projects are discussed now, the very first question seems to be - how much is it going to cost. Very little about the value.
And even worse, with all the modern planning tools and computer programming, we still cannot estimate total costs to within a few orders of magnitude.
And the planned completion dates are often out not just by a few weeks. Rather many years.

 

[sun_tzu]

The fact is that as a country, we are abysmal at pushing through major infrastructure projects.
And yet our forefathers were brilliant at it. The bulk of the railway tracks were built, by hand many many decades ago.
.

Were they so much better... Or did they also run behind time and over budget?.

Of HS2 is built and it's a world class rail line that leads to the ultimate modernisation of our whole public transport infrastructure won't that equally be looked back on in several generations as this amazing leap of faith in our abilities and ingenuity

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

Tweet

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[esmufc07]

HS2: Government to give high-speed rail line the go-ahead https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51443421

 

[horsechoker]

HS2: Government to give high-speed rail line the go-ahead https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51443421

Might as well as build the third runway at heathrow too

 

[Jacko21]

Those with a vested interest can breathe a sigh of relief.

They’ll be getting their pockets lined for several more years to come.

 

[The Boy]

Surely if the UK fancies itself post brexit as some kind of Uber trading island the right thing to do is to invest in the future by upgrading the infrastructure?

You’ll need all those trains for moving the coal around again

We’ve still got canals

 

[11101]

Only the first phase is being given the go ahead, the rest is yet to be decided. It would be typical of the country to only build half and render the whole thing a waste of time.

Just hurry up and do it, its desperately needed. The only people I have ever heard make genuine cases against it are those who live along the route and are likely to be negatively affected.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Only the first phase is being given the go ahead, the rest is yet to be decided. It would be typical of the country to only build half and render the whole thing a waste of time.

Just hurry up and do it, its desperately needed. The only people I have ever heard make genuine cases against it are those who live along the route and are likely to be negatively affected.

Seems like they're just kicking the can down the road on the Northern line whilst committing to building the line that everyone knew they always would.

 

[Mr Pigeon]

No surprise, they're scrapping the link to Leeds.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59292120

If their new proposal to improve existing services is apparently going be completed quicker and cheaper then what was the point in the original line?!

 

[11101]

No surprise, they're scrapping the link to Leeds.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59292120

If their new proposal to improve existing services is apparently going be completed quicker and cheaper then what was the point in the original line?!

It's better than that. They're going to build half of it and leave a 50 mile chunk in the middle on existing track.