I apologise Ole!

hobbers

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If said if the team keeps showing progression and improvement Ole should be here in 3 years time, or indefinitely really.
It's impossible to show progression for 3 years straight without winning either the league or the CL. Literally impossible.

Teams are built and peak in 3-4 year cycles at best so he's already over half way into that.
 
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Well no, because Fergie won titles within each cycle.

If you dont win a major title with a team you build in a 3-4 period you dont deserve the chance to build another.
Fergie was appointed in 1986 - his first trophy was the 1990 FA Cup. His first League title was 1993.

Your logic would have seen Fergie sacked. Which plenty wanted back then, but luckily the club kept faith in the project.
 

tomaldinho1

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Well no, because Fergie won titles within each cycle.

If you dont win a major title with a team you build in a 3-4 period you dont deserve the chance to build another.
That's why he was the master, constant reinvention of the team and his role. Basically had no ego when it came to progress, as an aside that is why Mou's tactics look so caveman now because he has remained the main 'coach' despite football changing all around him. Imagine if SAF tried to stick to the tactics he brought with him from his Aberdeen success, he'd have been long gone before 2000.
 

lysglimt

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The money is relative, even Munich do not buy expensive players. Their net expenses is way less than most of the top 6 in England. It is not a excuse, the reality thought is Munich and Us are huge clubs and we should have the same attitude toward the players, the manager and the board. Any sign of underperforming should never be accepted.
Bayern Munich don't buy expensive players ?

Theo H - €80 million
Sane - €50 million
Tolisso - €45 million
Javi M - €40 million

in addition they have 7 players who cost over €30 million
Compare that to :

Leipzig - record signing Keita €33 million + 5 more signings around €20 million

Leverkusen - record signing Demiray €35 million + 2 more signings between €25-30 million

Dortmund - record signing Humels for €30 million + a lot of signings between €20-30 million

Of the 10 most expensive signings by a German club - Bayern have signed 9 of them (only non-Bayern player was Draxler to Wolfsburg was in the top 10)
In the Premier League of the 40 most expensive signings - United had 8, City had 12, Chelsea had 7, Liverpool 4 and Arsenal 5 and one each for Hammers, Spurs and Everton (Haller, Ndombele and Sigurdsson)

So Bayern can basically handpick any player from the Bundesliga - and they have done. Dortmund have been their biggest opponent over the last 10 years and they have more or less been a feeder-club for Bayern. I agree that we should not accept mediocrity (which we are far away from now) - but you can't compare Bayerns situation to Man Uniteds, they are head and shoulders above all other german teams - and will continue to be so for a long time.
 

lysglimt

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It's impossible to show progression for 3 years straight without winning either the league or the CL. Literally impossible.

Teams are built and peak in 3-4 year cycles at best so he's already over half way into that.
Eh why is that impossible ? Under Ferguson we went showed big progression 3 years straight without winning the league

89/90 - ended 13th with 48 points
90/91 - ended 6th with 59 points
91/92 - ended 2nd with 78 points

And you know its possible to constantly buy and sell players to avoid this cycle you talk about ?
 

hobbers

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Fergie was appointed in 1986 - his first trophy was the 1990 FA Cup. His first League title was 1993.

Your logic would have seen Fergie sacked. Which plenty wanted back then, but luckily the club kept faith in the project.
Different times. No manager is getting 7 years to win a league title at any major club worth a damn in this day and age. Even if Fergie was successfully cloned his clone wouldn't get that long.
 

hobbers

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Eh why is that impossible ? Under Ferguson we went showed big progression 3 years straight without winning the league

89/90 - ended 13th with 48 points
90/91 - ended 6th with 59 points
91/92 - ended 2nd with 78 points

And you know its possible to constantly buy and sell players to avoid this cycle you talk about ?
I said 3-4, and regardless 13th with 48 points is quite a lot lower starting point than Ole's first season finish and then finishing third in his second. There's no way to meaningfully progress from where we are now without winning a major title within the next two years.

And we're never buying our way out of these cycles. Not with our track record of signings in the last 7 years.
 

Bilbo

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Different times. No manager is getting 7 years to win a league title at any major club worth a damn in this day and age. Even if Fergie was successfully cloned his clone wouldn't get that long.
You're right, but theres little point in putting a deadline on Ole. It will be perfectly clear when the time comes that he has stopped taking the team forward. He won't get 7 years, but he's bought himself this season and next as far as I'm concerned
 

Womp

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I mean, theres nothing to suggest he favours Lindelof over Bailly. If were basing it of his lineup yesterday, I think thats quite an assumption to make given he seems to want to play Bailly as much as possible AND wanting him to be fit (given the number of games hes played in a row since returning)

With regars to competing against Pep, if were talking over a season, its yet to be seen, but if were talking head to head, hes drawn twice with Klopp and lost once, and with Pep, hes lost three times, won three times and drawn once?
Bailly is fit, he has dropped Bailly for Lindelof in the past too. Maguire has played a million games more, yet was still chosen. Over the course of a season, he could come up superior to Pep and Klopp, but he would need superior players imo. We have seen more than enough by now to suggest his coaching acumen isn't to the same level of those two. City at times can play some unbelievable football and Liverpool can play any team off the park when at their best. We don't look nearly as threatening or coached a team. That's not necessarily an issue though, as I said, as long as he has superior quality in the squad.
 

HarryRedCrumbs

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Why the need for an apology? Football changes every week. Performances fluctuate, even more so this season.

I think Ole deserved credit and thanks from the moment he took the job. He certainly knew more than any of us what he was getting himself in to, and I bet he was still taken aback by the momentous load he felt building up over him. Not to mention the workload, but the sheer stress of having all our expectations on him. One of the most annoying things for me has been people giving him stick for his slightly nervy manner in front of the cameras. Many managers have hyper-inflated egos, and this is probably a good thing to do that job, but clearly Ole doesn't so I just want to then credit him even more for having the balls to try and get us out of the hole that we were in.

One other point, Ole is just about the closest thing to a homegrown manager as we've ever had in my life time and for me that just adds to the magic of supporting the club, win loose or draw. I know that kind of sentimentality doesn't mean anything to some people, but it counts for me.
 

Number TwentyFive

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He's not a very good manager from a coaching perspective, at least not good enough to compete against Pep, Klopp etc. To counter this, we need superior quality/individual quality.
Wonder how you know his coaching? Are you at Carrington and watch the training? Considering how the team looks now and how it looks when he took over I wonder how people can say that he isn't good enough at coaching. The thing is most of us won't know as we have never ever seen his training sessions, so concluding about his coaching ability is just plain guessing. And if the argument is what happens in matches, then how many matches have United turned from a losing position to a winning position, this year?

That then doesn't work hand in hand with his favouritism of players like Lindelof who are inferior to players like Bailly.
I agree that Bailly looks like a better centre half than Lindelöf, but I guess that it most likely has something to do with Bailly beeing injured all the time. Also after recent return from injury and injury record it would be silly to put him on the field for too many matches in a row.
 

Womp

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Wonder how you know his coaching? Are you at Carrington and watch the training? Considering how the team looks now and how it looks when he took over I wonder how people can say that he isn't good enough at coaching. The thing is most of us won't know as we have never ever seen his training sessions, so concluding about his coaching ability is just plain guessing. And if the argument is what happens in matches, then how many matches have United turned from a losing position to a winning position, this year?



I agree that Bailly looks like a better centre half than Lindelöf, but I guess that it most likely has something to do with Bailly beeing injured all the time. Also after recent return from injury and injury record it would be silly to put him on the field for too many matches in a row.
I'm familiar with his coaching as he has been here for years and we are still more often than not, a team who relies on individual brilliance to score goals. Are still uncomfortable playing out of the press at times. You only need to watch Liverpool and City play at their best to see the difference in levels. It was visible yesterday at certain times in the match. That's even with City missing some of their best players and not even having a recognised striker on the field. The way they pass the ball, press to recover it, the movement both off and on the ball etc. was on a different level to ours at times. If you think Ole has it in him to bridge that gap - all power to you, but he's been here long enough and I've seen enough for me to conclude I don't see it happening. Only way we are winning major trophies is by having superior quality or the level of our competitors dropping (which has happened with City and Liverpool so far tbf)

This squad is a very good one, I'm still of the opinion that a more progressive or experienced manager could get more out of this squad, but I do think Ole has a proper opportunity to win some silverware this season, given the circumstances, so let's see

Re your point on Bailly: At the moment he isn't injured. It was a match against our local rivals for a great chance to potentially win a trophy, something both the squad and the manager have admitted they are desperate for. You play your best players for a chance at winning. We didn't compromise in any other position, fielded our strongest 11. What is the point in having him around if you won't play him. He may well get injured, but that can happen at any time, any game. We shot ourselves in the foot with that.
 

Number TwentyFive

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I'm familiar with his coaching as he has been here for years and we are still more often than not, a team who relies on individual brilliance to score goals. Are still uncomfortable playing out of the press at times. You only need to watch Liverpool and City play at their best to see the difference in levels. It was visible yesterday at certain times in the match. That's even with City missing some of their best players and not even having a recognised striker on the field. The way they pass the ball, press to recover it, the movement both off and on the ball etc. was on a different level to ours at times.
First of all, even if he has been here for two years now, there is still not enough for you, me or anyone that haven't been inside Carrington to make conclussions about his coaching. Because you don't know what happens on the training field.

Second: That City team that missing a few players, well the most glaring ones were Steffen in goal, and Zinchenko on left back other than that the City team wasn't that weakened. Have a look at the lineup and quite a few of the players would have improved United. And it still amazes me that people use the argument that they were playing without a recognized striker, as this is a well known strategy from Guardiola and he has used that strategy against more opponents than United, so if using a false nine made the team weaker, well then they I guess Guardiola would have played with Aguero.

Third: I agree that they pass and press better than us, but then their squad is as I said better then Uniteds, and Guardiola has had a season and half more time to sign the players needed and coach the team.

Fourth: Do you know what tactical coaching do during the game? It is more than doing substitutions and changing formation or players positions. Ask any coach at any level, they would say changing and adjusting tactcs doesn't always work due to several factors, the players on the field, their mental or physical condition, the oppositions players, the oppsosition team physical and mental condition, the opponents ability to counter the original strategy and the tactical changes and what team that has momentum.

Finnaly: Looking at performances, it is subjective, but in my mind they look a lot better than what we saw under the last months of Mourinho. In my view that is progress.

The thing is City and Liverpool are better teams with better squads, and coaching don't always compensate for that. The best teams normally win their games. Looking at the results after Ole was appointed, United has won third most points in the PL, behind City and Liverpool.


No matter how many matches you, me or most of the others supporters is that we can't have a clue about his coaching ability except from looking at the results and performances and have a guess, because we don't know what happen on the training field, and we don't know what tactical messages that are given during a game. I'm pretty sure that coaching in training sessions and games are much more complicated and complex than what the regular supporter can see.

If you think Ole has it in him to bridge that gap - all power to you, but he's been here long enough and I've seen enough for me to conclude I don't see it happening. Only way we are winning major trophies is by having superior quality or the level of our competitors dropping (which has happened with City and Liverpool so far tbf)

This squad is a very good one, I'm still of the opinion that a more progressive or experienced manager could get more out of this squad.

Well, United are closer to the top than where they were when Ole arrived, so some bridging is already done, so I prefer to stay optimistic. Yes it is a good squad, but still not as good as Liverpool and Citys, so that has to do with squad quality not coaching. A quality that has improved after Ole arrived.


Re your point on Bailly: At the moment he isn't injured. It was a match against our local rivals for a great chance to potentially win a trophy, something both the squad and the manager have admitted they are desperate for. You play your best players for a chance at winning. We didn't compromise in any other position, fielded our strongest 11. What is the point in having him around if you won't play him. He may well get injured, but that can happen at any time, any game. We shot ourselves in the foot with that.
Yes he isn't injured now, but then again I guess Ole and his team had their reason not to play him, and yes it was a semi final againts our rivals. The main rival that United has beaten a few times with Lindelöf in the team. Of course you're right that injuries can hapen all the time, but the chance of a muscle injury that keeps a player out for weeks improves a lot with fatigue and hinge on the players fitness level. Considering Bailly just recently returned from injury it 's a quite calculated guess that his fitness level isn't at maximum and that his body could be a bit tired. Risking him then for weeks when United are close to the top and making him lose several league matches would be a bad decision in my view.
 
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DRJosh

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I think Ole deserved credit and thanks from the moment he took the job. He certainly knew more than any of us what he was getting himself in to, and I bet he was still taken aback by the momentous load he felt building up over him. Not to mention the workload, but the sheer stress of having all our expectations on him. One of the most annoying things for me has been people giving him stick for his slightly nervy manner in front of the cameras. Many managers have hyper-inflated egos, and this is probably a good thing to do that job, but clearly Ole doesn't so I just want to then credit him even more for having the balls to try and get us out of the hole that we were in.

One other point, Ole is just about the closest thing to a homegrown manager as we've ever had in my life time and for me that just adds to the magic of supporting the club, win loose or draw. I know that kind of sentimentality doesn't mean anything to some people, but it counts for me.
That’s a really reasonable response and well said. I guess context matters. Nuance matters too.

A lot of us on here are quite reactionary when it comes to supporting or discrediting Ole. This volatility in opinion makes for some irrational arguments.
Your response is perfectly balanced because it’s not just about performances but more holistically it’s about the set-up of the entire team and his management personality/attitude.
 

lysglimt

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I said 3-4, and regardless 13th with 48 points is quite a lot lower starting point than Ole's first season finish and then finishing third in his second. There's no way to meaningfully progress from where we are now without winning a major title within the next two years.

And we're never buying our way out of these cycles. Not with our track record of signings in the last 7 years.
I dont agree with you - signing players like Diallo, Pellistri, Hannibal, Alvaro Fernandes, Joe Hugill etc etc - might in a 2-4 years time be exactly what this club needs.
 

sunama

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Eh why is that impossible ? Under Ferguson we went showed big progression 3 years straight without winning the league

89/90 - ended 13th with 48 points
90/91 - ended 6th with 59 points
91/92 - ended 2nd with 78 points

And you know its possible to constantly buy and sell players to avoid this cycle you talk about ?
Starting the first season with 48 points is a low starting point and Fergie made consistent progress (with a few blips along the way, as he changed key players).
Ole started off with a team which finished 2nd 6 months before he took over, so the team was already in decent shape.

I don't think Ole has been improving the team, because last season we scored lowest points total ever, in the EPL.
I think that the team performance you see today is as far as he can go. We'll win a few. We'll then lose a couple, then win a few again. We won't win the league with this manager and will struggle to win the minor Cup competitions (though if we get an easy route, he may achieve this).
If you are happy with a top 4 finish, Ole will get you that, while spending huge sums of cash. If you want a league win....Ole is not the man.
Once Bruno's form dips, there is a high likelihood that we'll drop out of the title race and I expect us to finish 3rd or 4th this season.
I realise that to some, the top 4 trophy is seen as something of an achievement, but as an older fan, to me, 3rd or 4th place is failure and sackable.

It pains me to say the above, but a manager doesn't underperform and suddenly turn good. Ole has been managing for as long Pep G and the difference is night and day.
I'll put it another way - if he were fired from MUFC today, he won't get any offers to manage another EPL club.
I'll also say that no (or very few) fans of any EPL club would want to swap their manager with ours. That has to tell you something.
 

sunama

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I dont agree with you - signing players like Diallo, Pellistri, Hannibal, Alvaro Fernandes, Joe Hugill etc etc - might in a 2-4 years time be exactly what this club needs.
You can add Dalot to that list.
The odds of any of them becoming top players (to help win a league) are extremely low. They may become decent, but the chances are low.
It would be like me saying that I am going to buy a bunch of youngsters and I expect that they will propel me to a league win. That's not how the EPL is won these days and is the reason why we don't see clubs that are in the lower half of the table use this strategy to win a league.
 

lysglimt

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Starting the first season with 48 points is a low starting point and Fergie made consistent progress (with a few blips along the way, as he changed key players).
Ole started off with a team which finished 2nd 6 months before he took over, so the team was already in decent shape.

I don't think Ole has been improving the team, because last season we scored lowest points total ever, in the EPL.
I think that the team performance you see today is as far as he can go. We'll win a few. We'll then lose a couple, then win a few again. We won't win the league with this manager and will struggle to win the minor Cup competitions (though if we get an easy route, he may achieve this).
If you are happy with a top 4 finish, Ole will get you that, while spending huge sums of cash. If you want a league win....Ole is not the man.
Once Bruno's form dips, there is a high likelihood that we'll drop out of the title race and I expect us to finish 3rd or 4th this season.
I realise that to some, the top 4 trophy is seen as something of an achievement, but as an older fan, to me, 3rd or 4th place is failure and sackable.

It pains me to say the above, but a manager doesn't underperform and suddenly turn good. Ole has been managing for as long Pep G and the difference is night and day.
I'll put it another way - if he were fired from MUFC today, he won't get any offers to manage another EPL club.
I'll also say that no (or very few) fans of any EPL club would want to swap their manager with ours. That has to tell you something.
You are aware that we are above City in the table right ?
 

lysglimt

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You can add Dalot to that list.
The odds of any of them becoming top players (to help win a league) are extremely low. They may become decent, but the chances are low.
It would be like me saying that I am going to buy a bunch of youngsters and I expect that they will propel me to a league win. That's not how the EPL is won these days and is the reason why we don't see clubs that are in the lower half of the table use this strategy to win a league.
It's a long term strategy - not a short-term strategy.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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It's impossible to show progression for 3 years straight without winning either the league or the CL. Literally impossible.

Teams are built and peak in 3-4 year cycles at best so he's already over half way into that.
19/20 -> The beginning of the rebuild - Finished in top 4 with 66 points & develop players (Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and etc)
20/21 -> Second stage of the rebuild - Close the gaps with the top and finish with 80 points or plus & develop players
21/22 -> Third stage of the rebuild - Challenging the league & Quarter Final/Semi Final CL
22/23 -> Final stage of the rebuild - Winning the league

Don't you see that as progress which something we are aiming for at least?

It was proven possible under Sir Alex as well for 3 years without winning either league or CL. 03/04, 04/05, 05/06.
 

Womp

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First of all, even if he has been here for two years now, there is still not enough for you, me or anyone that haven't been inside Carrington to make conclussions about his coaching. Because you don't know what happens on the training field.

Second: That City team that missing a few players, well the most glaring ones were Steffen in goal, and Zinchenko on left back other than that the City team wasn't that weakened. Have a look at the lineup and quite a few of the players would have improved United. And it still amazes me that people use the argument that they were playing without a recognized striker, as this is a well known strategy from Guardiola and he has used that strategy against more opponents than United, so if using a false nine made the team weaker, well then they I guess Guardiola would have played with Aguero.

Third: I agree that they pass and press better than us, but then their squad is as I said better then Uniteds, and Guardiola has had a season and half more time to sign the players needed and coach the team.

Fourth: Do you know what tactical coaching do during the game? It is more than doing substitutions and changing formation or players positions. Ask any coach at any level, they would say changing and adjusting tactcs doesn't always work due to several factors, the players on the field, their mental or physical condition, the oppositions players, the oppsosition team physical and mental condition, the opponents ability to counter the original strategy and the tactical changes and what team that has momentum.

Finnaly: Looking at performances, it is subjective, but in my mind they look a lot better than what we saw under the last months of Mourinho. In my view that is progress.

The thing is City and Liverpool are better teams with better squads, and coaching don't always compensate for that. The best teams normally win their games. Looking at the results after Ole was appointed, United has won third most points in the PL, behind City and Liverpool.


No matter how many matches you, me or most of the others supporters is that we can't have a clue about his coaching ability except from looking at the results and performances and have a guess, because we don't know what happen on the training field, and we don't know what tactical messages that are given during a game. I'm pretty sure that coaching in training sessions and games are much more complicated and complex than what the regular supporter can see.




Well, United are closer to the top than where they were when Ole arrived, so some bridging is already done, so I prefer to stay optimistic. Yes it is a good squad, but still not as good as Liverpool and Citys, so that has to do with squad quality not coaching. A quality that has improved after Ole arrived.




Yes he isn't injured now, but then again I guess Ole and his team had their reason not to play him, and yes it was a semi final againts our rivals. The main rival that United has beaten a few times with Lindelöf in the team. Of course you're right that injuries can hapen all the time, but the chance of a muscle injury that keeps a player out for weeks improves a lot with fatigue and hinge on the players fitness level. Considering Bailly just recently returned from injury it 's a quite calculated guess that his fitness level isn't at maximum and that his body could be a bit tired. Risking him then for weeks when United are close to the top and making him lose several league matches would be a bad decision in my view.
This nonsense that you need a great squad to implement a style has been proven to be incorrect so many times now. Results are determined by the quality of players - not a style. Klopp was able to implement his style to a rubbish Liverpool side when he first joined, they were highly inconsistent due to the available personnel, but the style was still evident, the coaching and football that was being played was at that level. Look at RB Leipzig as another example - far less quality individually but we were played off the park at times by them. It's no longer a valid excuse to keep pointing at another team's superior players for the reason as to why we cannot play a similar style of football. The reason our football isn't to that standard is down to the coaching and if you think 2 years isn't enough of a sample size to get an understanding of the level this team can reach with the manager in charge, I'm not sure what else to tell you. I'd argue we are a very similar team to when he joined - just with superior players. Still reliant on space to be able to impact a team offensively, still uncomfortable being pressed, our own press is still very pedestrian and unorganized. Movement both on and off the ball isn't up to the required standard. Still struggle to break down defenses due to those above mentioned issues too. Those aren't specific to players - that is specific to coaching. We have some incredible individual players in the squad, Bruno and Rashford to name a few, who can win games with individuality, but to say the team looks even in the same league as drilled as a team like Liverpool and City who have specific patterns that they can do extremely quick, to unsettle defences - I am yet to see it.

You're right, Guardiola has used False nine's in the past - he hasn't had to do so with players who are centre midfielders before though. Their goalkeeper was out, so too their starting fullback, their striker and arguably second best player was out too. Not to add their best defender, amongst others. To claim they were playing with their best 11 isn't true by any means.

Also your point falls on itself - I don't give a shite what he is doing on the training field - if it doesn't reflect in performances on the pitch, that's his shortcoming as a coach. If having a good ol' try was enough to be United manager, I might as well get the job too, I'll try and put together some nice coaching movements in training as well. You're right we can't see what he does in training and behind closed doors, he could be a SAF/PEP hybrid for all we know. Unless we see it on the pitch though, it's all moot. Other managers are capable of implementing an identity into their teams, there's no excuse why Ole shouldn't be able to do it too.

PS: You're arguing a strawman. I never said we haven't progressed under him or improved. I simply said, I have seen enough to suggest that with him as manager, we will never improve ENOUGH to be able to compete with the calibre of coaching in Europe without having superior players. If he can prove me wrong and we start seeing some beautiful patterns of play, I'd be over the moon. As of now though, with the way City are beginning to play and Liverpool waiting for their best players to return - as much as I hope we can, I'm not sure we can maintain this 'title race'
 
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hobbers

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19/20 -> The beginning of the rebuild - Finished in top 4 with 66 points & develop players (Rashford, Martial, Greenwood and etc)
20/21 -> Second stage of the rebuild - Close the gaps with the top and finish with 80 points or plus & develop players
21/22 -> Third stage of the rebuild - Challenging the league & Quarter Final/Semi Final CL
22/23 -> Final stage of the rebuild - Winning the league

Don't you see that as progress which something we are aiming for at least?
I meant 3 years from now. Or rather the results at the end of this season, next season and 2022/23.

3-4 year cycle. Ole is 2 years in. We have to show serious progress come the end of this season (~76+ points at the very least assuming no cups), and we have to be winning something and winning/within a whisker of the league title by the end of next season. If he doesn't meet those criteria then he's failed in the job and obviously won't deserve a second cycle.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I meant 3 years from now. Or rather the results at the end of this season, next season and 2022/23.

3-4 year cycle. Ole is 2 years in. We have to show serious progress come the end of this season (~76+ points at the very least assuming no cups), and we have to be winning something and winning/within a whisker of the league title by the end of next season. If he doesn't meet those criteria then he's failed in the job and obviously won't deserve a second cycle.
So why did you say it's impossible to show progression for 3 years straight without winning either the league or the CL then?
 

Sylar

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Bailly is fit, he has dropped Bailly for Lindelof in the past too. Maguire has played a million games more, yet was still chosen. Over the course of a season, he could come up superior to Pep and Klopp, but he would need superior players imo. We have seen more than enough by now to suggest his coaching acumen isn't to the same level of those two. City at times can play some unbelievable football and Liverpool can play any team off the park when at their best. We don't look nearly as threatening or coached a team. That's not necessarily an issue though, as I said, as long as he has superior quality in the squad.
At our best we out played city and pep at the Etihad Last season (esp that first half in the league)
We looked well drilled and coached for that game
Likewise our tactic against Liverpool at home worked well but defensive issues allowed an equaliser at home

Ole has planned well against the likes of pep,Jose and Klopp and has shown he's not just some guy that relies on one piece of brilliance

But it we are going that way, then at the same time we can say his losses are due to individual errors
The set piece goals we conceded a few days ago are avoided by our players doing better in a situation / not making a mistake rather than a tactical change

Same against arsenal, pogbas mistake leads to the penalty and goal that results in us losing
Individual mistakes Vs spurs leads to us conceding quite a bit

And in the opposite way you can see what ole is trying to achieve with our team. The way we played vs PSG both games. We won the first game (and nearly didn't because of an own goal from a set piece, again avoidable but thanks to an Individual mistake)

The second game we were the better team and missed so many chances to take the lead and then conceded from a set piece


The one thing ole needs to work on is defending set pieces as we are conceding too many
But our overall play in games, it's quite obvious ole wants us to press when we don't have the ball, counter when we win the ball back, but if that's not possible then to move the ball quick like the United team did under Fergie

We do need better individuals in positions of course, but a point you made to @Number TwentyFive
about needing a better squad to implement a style, it's no coincidence when pep came in he didn't win the league his first season but did after pretty much overhauling his entire defence and goalkeeper (twice)
Pep has had the luxury of getting a keeper in, seeing it not work and then within a year or two replacing him with a much better but more expensive keeper
Liverpool and Klopp are the same with karius and then allison

It's one thing having a style in mind but you also need players who can carry it out.
Everybody here expects every ole signing to be a hit whereas pep has had the fortune of buying and buying expensive cbs until it's right and fits the style he wants

Klopp less so but he's been managing at the top level much longer than ole and is no doubt a better coach, but he still needed better players to take his squad and team to the next level (he was being questioned until he got vvd and made that cl final and built on from that after a karius horror show)
 

gerdm07

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I meant 3 years from now. Or rather the results at the end of this season, next season and 2022/23.

3-4 year cycle. Ole is 2 years in. We have to show serious progress come the end of this season (~76+ points at the very least assuming no cups), and we have to be winning something and winning/within a whisker of the league title by the end of next season. If he doesn't meet those criteria then he's failed in the job and obviously won't deserve a second cycle.
I agree with you for the most part. The whisker thing is up for debate. In 21/22 if we lose by 6 points to a 98 point team I'm okay with that and Ole should stay. And if we lose a thriller quarter finals CL to a great team I'm okay with that also. I think context is important because even if we are playing great football there is no guarantee we would win a big title or cup.

I just want yoy progress knowing a significant title is possible.
 

hobbers

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So why did you say it's impossible to show progression for 3 years straight without winning either the league or the CL then?
Because the person I was quoting was saying Ole should have 3 more years from now...
 

Siorac

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Same against arsenal, pogbas mistake leads to the penalty and goal that results in us losing
And without that mistake, it's an unwatchable 0-0 in which we created nothing and played terribly. That's not on any one player.
Likewise our tactic against Liverpool at home worked well but defensive issues allowed an equaliser at home
Sort of? I mean they had over 70% possession in the second half, they were coming at us constantly. At that point it's not a surprise if eventually the pressure results in a mistake, even if up until that point we had managed to restrict them to half-chances at best. Putting it down solely to one individual error is a little disingenuous.
 

Sylar

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And without that mistake, it's an unwatchable 0-0 in which we created nothing and played terribly. That's not on any one player.

Sort of? I mean they had over 70% possession in the second half, they were coming at us constantly. At that point it's not a surprise if eventually the pressure results in a mistake, even if up until that point we had managed to restrict them to half-chances at best. Putting it down solely to one individual error is a little disingenuous.
The same way putting a result / victory towards one piece of genius is a bit disingenuous

You totally missed the point of my post.
 

Siorac

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The same way putting a result / victory towards one piece of genius is a bit disingenuous

You totally missed the point of my post.
The point of the 'relying on individual brilliance' argument is that in too many games, we have little control of the game, we don't seem to play well as a team, we don't create enough quality chances but some outstanding bits of individual play gets us the result. I think it's a criticism that has merit: we CAN look like a well-drilled side, on occasion, but too often we don't. Exactly why it's a mistake to focus on individual errors: it's true that we lost the Arsenal game because Pogba made a stupid challenge - but it's not the whole truth, as it glosses over our otherwise utterly awful performance. As a team, we looked terrible - and it still happens quite often, even in games we end up winning. See West Ham away. Which is why I still don't think we're title contenders this season and firmly expect us to fall away.
 

Sylar

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The point of the 'relying on individual brilliance' argument is that in too many games, we have little control of the game, we don't seem to play well as a team, we don't create enough quality chances but some outstanding bits of individual play gets us the result. I think it's a criticism that has merit: we CAN look like a well-drilled side, on occasion, but too often we don't. Exactly why it's a mistake to focus on individual errors: it's true that we lost the Arsenal game because Pogba made a stupid challenge - but it's not the whole truth, as it glosses over our otherwise utterly awful performance. As a team, we looked terrible - and it still happens quite often, even in games we end up winning. See West Ham away. Which is why I still don't think we're title contenders this season and firmly expect us to fall away.
Yes we looked horrible vs Arsenal, but again, there are times in the past where weve looked horrible.

And on the reverse, there are games we dont end up winning, where weve created so many chances but havent been clinical. Look at the PSG at home game that we lost 3-1.
This is nothing like Jose or LVG sides where we would create one chance and we would have to take it otherwise thats it.

I think there seems to be a whole lot of 'take credit away from Ole as much as possible' going on. He has his flaws but he also deserves credit on the other side too.
This isnt a case of everything bad is Oles fault, everything good is down to the players.
 

rotherham_red

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I'm familiar with his coaching as he has been here for years and we are still more often than not, a team who relies on individual brilliance to score goals. Are still uncomfortable playing out of the press at times. You only need to watch Liverpool and City play at their best to see the difference in levels. It was visible yesterday at certain times in the match. That's even with City missing some of their best players and not even having a recognised striker on the field. The way they pass the ball, press to recover it, the movement both off and on the ball etc. was on a different level to ours at times. If you think Ole has it in him to bridge that gap - all power to you, but he's been here long enough and I've seen enough for me to conclude I don't see it happening. Only way we are winning major trophies is by having superior quality or the level of our competitors dropping (which has happened with City and Liverpool so far tbf)

This squad is a very good one, I'm still of the opinion that a more progressive or experienced manager could get more out of this squad, but I do think Ole has a proper opportunity to win some silverware this season, given the circumstances, so let's see

Re your point on Bailly: At the moment he isn't injured. It was a match against our local rivals for a great chance to potentially win a trophy, something both the squad and the manager have admitted they are desperate for. You play your best players for a chance at winning. We didn't compromise in any other position, fielded our strongest 11. What is the point in having him around if you won't play him. He may well get injured, but that can happen at any time, any game. We shot ourselves in the foot with that.
You didn't really answer his question though, do you or do you not see the difference in how we play compared to how we were under Jose?

I also disagree with you that we struggle to play out from the back, as I have seen us markedly improve in that regard. City and Liverpool have their ways of playing and so do we. It's not that one is better than the other, it's just different. I doubt you'll see City or Liverpool having the sort of intricate and blistering counter attacks we have, but you don't see their fans pining for it, even when Klopp and Liverpool were building their team up. Speaking of, Klopp's Liverpool aren't exactly the most sophisticated of teams either: a high energy, low craft midfield whose sole purpose is to cover their fullbacks who will over/underlap and cross from deep, or failing that they'll just pump long balls into the channels for their wide forwards to run on to.

Also, there is a very real argument to be made that our post-Ronaldo team was exactly what you're describing: a team who got by on moments of brilliance. I wasn't hearing any grumblings of patterns of play then, so why are we seeing it now?

At the end of the day, coaching is about putting your best players in the best possible position to succeed, and I think on that front, Ole is doing a decent enough job. He's developed a coherent squad out of what was a Frankenstein's monster, he's got us playing a more expansive game that wasn't there in the 6 years before he came, and he's improved quite a few of the players in the team who at various points were questioned (Fred, McTominay, Rashford, Martial, Shaw). Of course, he's made the odd cock-ups along the way, but he's almost always learned his lessons from those cock-ups, and that for me is a good quality to have.

Let's see how we get on for the rest of the season, but even with Liverpool and to a lesser extent City dropping down a peg or two, we have gained 9 points more on where we were at the same stage last season (an amount of points which would have had us in 2nd at the same stage last season), top 4 is very much in our hands and we're potentially going to be in a title in the second half of the season. I'm sure if you were offered that after the transfer window closed (which was after the 6-1 v Spurs) you'd have snapped the hands off of anyone who might have offered you that at the time.

We'll probably be going out to win the FA Cup and Europa League too, and I'm fine with that as long as it doesn't put our Top 4/title hopes at risk. With how the Cups are going, we might finally get lucky and have an easy draw and get over the SF hoodoo in either of the two competitions.
 

rotherham_red

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Starting the first season with 48 points is a low starting point and Fergie made consistent progress (with a few blips along the way, as he changed key players).
Ole started off with a team which finished 2nd 6 months before he took over, so the team was already in decent shape.

I don't think Ole has been improving the team, because last season we scored lowest points total ever, in the EPL.
I think that the team performance you see today is as far as he can go. We'll win a few. We'll then lose a couple, then win a few again. We won't win the league with this manager and will struggle to win the minor Cup competitions (though if we get an easy route, he may achieve this).
If you are happy with a top 4 finish, Ole will get you that, while spending huge sums of cash. If you want a league win....Ole is not the man.
Once Bruno's form dips, there is a high likelihood that we'll drop out of the title race and I expect us to finish 3rd or 4th this season.
I realise that to some, the top 4 trophy is seen as something of an achievement, but as an older fan, to me, 3rd or 4th place is failure and sackable.

It pains me to say the above, but a manager doesn't underperform and suddenly turn good. Ole has been managing for as long Pep G and the difference is night and day.
I'll put it another way - if he were fired from MUFC today, he won't get any offers to manage another EPL club.
I'll also say that no (or very few) fans of any EPL club would want to swap their manager with ours. That has to tell you something.
1. Last season wasn't our lowest points tally, Moyes had accrued 2 points less.
2. He didn't come in when we were 2nd, he came in when we were 7th because Jose scorched the earth and had us on 26 points after 17 games. We were closer to relegation than we were to the title. That we were even close to Top 4 after that was solely due to our initial good run with Ole, which was a better run than anything Jose had managed with the same set of players.
3. We have already accrued 9 points more than at the same stage last season, and a points tally thus far that would have had us 2nd behind Liverpool last year. We have also accrued more points than anyone else during the course of the last 11 months, which in addition to the young squad we have, gives plenty of indication that there is further room to grow. This team is progressing and will continue to progress.
 

rotherham_red

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At our best we out played city and pep at the Etihad Last season (esp that first half in the league)
We looked well drilled and coached for that game
Likewise our tactic against Liverpool at home worked well but defensive issues allowed an equaliser at home

Ole has planned well against the likes of pep,Jose and Klopp and has shown he's not just some guy that relies on one piece of brilliance

But it we are going that way, then at the same time we can say his losses are due to individual errors
The set piece goals we conceded a few days ago are avoided by our players doing better in a situation / not making a mistake rather than a tactical change

Same against arsenal, pogbas mistake leads to the penalty and goal that results in us losing
Individual mistakes Vs spurs leads to us conceding quite a bit

And in the opposite way you can see what ole is trying to achieve with our team. The way we played vs PSG both games. We won the first game (and nearly didn't because of an own goal from a set piece, again avoidable but thanks to an Individual mistake)

The second game we were the better team and missed so many chances to take the lead and then conceded from a set piece


The one thing ole needs to work on is defending set pieces as we are conceding too many
But our overall play in games, it's quite obvious ole wants us to press when we don't have the ball, counter when we win the ball back, but if that's not possible then to move the ball quick like the United team did under Fergie

We do need better individuals in positions of course, but a point you made to @Number TwentyFive
about needing a better squad to implement a style, it's no coincidence when pep came in he didn't win the league his first season but did after pretty much overhauling his entire defence and goalkeeper (twice)
Pep has had the luxury of getting a keeper in, seeing it not work and then within a year or two replacing him with a much better but more expensive keeper
Liverpool and Klopp are the same with karius and then allison

It's one thing having a style in mind but you also need players who can carry it out.
Everybody here expects every ole signing to be a hit whereas pep has had the fortune of buying and buying expensive cbs until it's right and fits the style he wants

Klopp less so but he's been managing at the top level much longer than ole and is no doubt a better coach, but he still needed better players to take his squad and team to the next level (he was being questioned until he got vvd and made that cl final and built on from that after a karius horror show)
Spot on. The tactics and game plan haven't really been that bad, but individual errors have exacerbated them. The set piece issue is definitely one that we need to fix though, it's very concerning.

The thing that annoys me is that we're in a good position right now despite the board not backing Ole in the summer by failing to get him the likes of Sancho, Grealish, Upamecano et al. Imagine where we'd be if we did have just one or two of those here.
 

Sylar

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Spot on. The tactics and game plan haven't really been that bad, but individual errors have exacerbated them. The set piece issue is definitely one that we need to fix though, it's very concerning.

The thing that annoys me is that we're in a good position right now despite the board not backing Ole in the summer by failing to get him the likes of Sancho, Grealish, Upamecano et al. Imagine where we'd be if we did have just one or two of those here.
What I don't get it and it never gets answered:

If Ole is so bad despite having us top as some say, then does that mean the squad is great and Ed / glazers deserve credit?

Because I certainly don't remember many saying we would challenge based on the squad we had.