If only had I won

[antohan]

Thanks @antohan

That Belgium game is just a brilliant watch, so is the Boniek compilation one of you lads made on YouTube.

That third goal... I reckon if Adama Traore tries ghosting into the box like that 9/10 times he ends up sitting on his arse instead of stopping dead on his tracks and gracefully swivelling to avoid the offside. The other he misses the goal.

That's assuming he pulls off the initial crossfield pass to Smolarek, of course.

 

[antohan]

There was a guy at Spurs called Nayim, looks class.

How old are you mate?

I gather you don't remember this then. The only reason most people would have registered his name at all.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

How old are you mate?

I gather you don't remember this then. The only reason most people would have registered his name at all.

32 years young

goal against Arsenal? Saw that, filthy.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

for others to see as well, but he looks class in pretty much every Spurs game in the early 90s i watched so far

 

[antohan]

32 years young

goal against Arsenal? Saw that, filthy.

Link malfunctioned, fixed.

You were 5 then so figures you would have missed the greatest thing Spurs did to Arsenal in living memory, albeit somewhat indirectly.

"Some guy called Nayim", he was a background photo on CM for years after that.

It's a good shout though re forgotten players. Without that goal he absolutely would be lost without a trace.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

That said @GodShaveTheQueen I'm not sure about that Boniek-Henry combo. I don't see it really. Actually more likely to be confused as feck if you ask me.

Yea, that is fair. I was more interested in whether people who have watched him extensively think he can function in a Iniesta kind of left midfielder role in a 4-4-2, although they did have a lot of qualities different from each other. Boniek can of course play much more advanced role while Iniesta would offer a lot more in midfield.

Didn't heed much attention to nonsensical comments like he has never played in a 4-4-2 in his life or that he is not your typical 4-4-2 wide man. Obvious pointers which add little to nothing to the debate or to the variety of teams built.

I remember one comment thought he wasn't disciplined enough for a 4-4-2. I mean if Boniek was not hard working and disciplined off the ball, which flamboyant player ever was.

So long story short, do you think he is not a good pick for a free roaming wide midfielder role in a 4-4-2. To be honest I am not 100 percent convinced as well and open to being corrected as long as it's not a nonsensical suggestion.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Who would you count in that category?

Sepp Maier- I think everyone will call me crazy but I have some of my reasons. I have watched a great amount of his games in Bayern München and Germany and I find that he was such a mediocre in anticipating crossed ball, his handling was super-weak compare to his contemporaries and a lot of top modern goalkeepers, you can see it in almost every matches of him. However, he still had a great reflex and positioning instead.

Gaetano Scirea- Scirea often overlooked in term of toughness . I think despite he had a great disciplinary records, he was a very tough guy that often overlooked from modern fans. Gentile is known today in term of brutal and dirty player, Scirea wasn't brutal and dirty like Gentile but he was a very tough guy too, not a silky soft guy.

I talk about Scirea's toughness not his talent. His talent level was out of this world

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The more I watch Juventus, the more I feel Scirea should be ranked higher among liberos. His attacking contribution was way more brilliant that I ever gave him credit for.

When it comes to the attacking contribution of liberos, I'd even put him ahead of Figueroa/Baresi/Koeman.

 

[General_Elegancia]

He was never afraid to challenge anything, if it was necessary (Scirea).

 

[antohan]

So long story short, do you think he is not a good pick for a free roaming wide midfielder role in a 4-4-2. To be honest I am not 100 percent convinced as well and open to being corrected as long as it's not a nonsensical suggestion.

I mentioned in one of your games I did buy it, so long as there was a fullback that can genuinely run that flank, keep the channel active and the defence stretched to avoid crosses. Cabrini works, of course.

The disciplined side is irrelevant to the attacking phase as that's not the reason to play Boniek, he is not there to be a fecking winger keeping some shape/structure (that's what you needed Cabrini for above). It is more relevant to defensive phases / without the ball, where he absolutely was one of the most committed and hardworking forwards you will find. Cabrini will be protected.

He actually played out his career as a sweeper as he had the brain and engine, just not the legs/pace any more. I know for a fact one of the three goals in that Belgium clip starts with a Boniek recovery (probably the third) but wouldn't be surprised to find out it's two of them.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I mentioned in one of your games I did buy it, so long as there was a fullback that can genuinely run that flank, keep the channel active and the defence stretched to avoid crosses. Cabrini works, of course.

The disciplined side is irrelevant to the attacking phase as that's not the reason to play Boniek, he is not there to be a fecking winger keeping some shape/structure (that's what you needed Cabrini for above). It is more relevant to defensive phases / without the ball, where he absolutely was one of the most committed and hardworking forwards you will find. Cabrini will be protected.

He actually played out his career as a sweeper as he had the brain and engine, just not the legs/pace any more. I know for a fact one of the three goals in that Belgium clip starts with a Boniek recovery (probably the third) but wouldn't be surprised to find out it's two of them.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[antohan]

The more I watch Juventus, the more I feel Scirea should be ranked higher among liberos. His attacking contribution was way more brilliant that I ever gave him credit for.

When it comes to the attacking contribution of liberos, I'd even put him ahead of Figueroa/Baresi/Koeman.

Oh boy, don't tag @Moby or he won't stop yapping about this.

Oops!

 

[Moby]

Oh boy, don't tag @Moby or he won't stop yapping about this.

Oops!

Those were the days.

 

[Isotope]

Just checked Boniek's wiki, his Juve's goal numbers (domestic and continental) aren't that impressive either. Maybe he's more of (polish-ed) Lingard in terms of world-class off the ball movement?

 

[General_Elegancia]

Just checked Boniek's wiki, his Juve's goal numbers (domestic and continental) aren't that impressive either.

Boniek for me is a player that statistics don't tell everything about how great he was. @antohan has an impressive description about Boniek. If I describe him, I think it will probably too long. I would say that Boniek was in a very important part of Platini's 3 consecutive Serie A scoring titles. For me, Boniek was sometimes inconsistency player too.

 

[General_Elegancia]

Talking about Boniek's ratings. He had played from 1982-1988 with Juventus and Roma.

1982-83 6.11-9th place (Platini with 6.47)
1983-84 6.19- 5th place (Platini with 6.71)
1984-85 6.35 -5th place (Platini with 6.38)
1985-86 6.55 - 1st place (highest rating in Serie A that season ahead of Maradona, Passarella, Junior, Laudrup, Rummenigge, Briegel, Elkjaer and his friend "Platini")
*Platini had started to decline in term of physical supplements and he got 6.50
1986-87-10th place 6.22 (Maradona with 6.69, Briegel with 6.45 and Platini with 6.19)
1987-1988 - 15th place 5.93

http://www.dbscalcio.it/sn-schedaCa...omePlayer=Boniek&dataNascitaPlayer=03-03-1956

He finished in top 5 against a lot of the best players in the world during that era 3 times, which is an impressive record.

 

[antohan]

1985-86 6.55 - 1st place (highest rating in Serie A that season ahead of Maradona, Passarella, Junior, Laudrup, Rummenigge, Briegel, Elkjaer and his friend "Platini")

This is his first season at Roma. After the transfer was sanctioned Platini hinted at his discontent when saying the top scorer would be whoever played with Boniek (i.e. a Roma striker, whoever).

Indeed, after three consecutive seasons of Platino top scorer, it was the Roma striker (name escapes me) that got it.

 

[Isotope]

Boniek for me is a player that statistics don't tell everything about how great he was. @antohan has an impressive description about Boniek. If I describe him, I think it will probably too long. I would say that Boniek was in a very important part of Platini's 3 consecutive Serie A scoring titles. For me, Boniek was sometimes inconsistency player too.

His on Ballon d'Or list is less impressive.

1982 - 3rd
1983 - 30th
1984 - none
1985 - 6th
1986 - none
1987 - none

 

[antohan]

I was thinking of picking Henry as final reinforcement. What do you all think of Henry-Kocsis? Better or worse than Raul-Kocsis?

Just remembered this, which I skipped to avoid mixing up topics.

I could see Raul-Kocsis working straightaway, but the same doesn't hold for Henry-Kocsis.

It's not just that I rate Raul higher than most here but the fact Raul played and worked well with several very different strikers. You know you will get at least the sum of parts.

Can I say the same with Henry? Not really. What's the first thing that comes to mind as an Henry partner? Bergkamp. You would have your work cut out getting me to buy Henry and Kocsis add up, let alone augment each other when that's my main reference.

Bergkamp elevated Henry, don't think the opposite holds as much. Similar with Puskas and Kocsis... I'm sure many won't agree but what goes through my head is "two elevated ones, not an elevator-elevated pair, will they both end up not being their best selves?".

 

[antohan]

His on Ballon d'Or list is less impressive.

1982 - 3rd
1983 - 30th
1984 - none
1985 - 6th
1986 - none
1987 - none

No one is arguing Boniek was BPITW. Assessing a players worth on voters thinking he is THE BEST is pretty mental. The fact a Polish player made 3rd and 6th is actually outstanding.

 

[Isotope]

No one is arguing Boniek was BPITW. Assessing a players worth on voters thinking he is THE BEST is pretty mental. The fact a Polish player made 3rd and 6th is actually outstanding.

@General_Elegancia he's calling you mental.

 

[antohan]

@General_Elegancia he's calling you mental.

If he said Giggs was a bit shit because he featured in Ballon d'Or half as many times as Boniek and in far lower rankings (never top 10, for starters) then yeah, that's mental.

 

[Gio]

I was thinking of picking Henry as final reinforcement. What do you all think of Henry-Kocsis? Better or worse than Raul-Kocsis?

Raul - Kocsis works and mirrors the Puskas/Kocsis tandem in as much as both Puskas and Raul were left-footed, providers and goalscorers, and could drop into the hole with ease to service others.

I think Henry and Kocsis works but it's not as synergistic. You'd get more individual threat from Henry in your attack, which may be a price worth paying, but I don't think Kocsis facilitates Henry that much beyond occupying the centre and some decent link-up play. Whereas with Raul you get the self-sacrifice that saw him play well with GOATs and domestiques alike, as well as the angled through-balls and neat interplay through the centre.

Getting the best out of Henry doesn't feel that straightforward to me.

 

[Physiocrat]

How about Henry with Raul?

 

[antohan]

Raul - Kocsis works and mirrors the Puskas/Kocsis tandem in as much as both Puskas and Raul were left-footed, providers and goalscorers, and could drop into the hole with ease to service others.

I think Henry and Kocsis works but it's not as synergistic. You'd get more individual threat from Henry in your attack, which may be a price worth paying, but I don't think Kocsis facilitates Henry that much beyond occupying the centre and some decent link-up play. Whereas with Raul you get the self-sacrifice that saw him play well with GOATs and domestiques alike, as well as the angled through-balls and neat interplay through the centre.

Getting the best out of Henry doesn't feel that straightforward to me.

As ever, you put it much better than I could, but that was the gist of it earlier.