Aye, I've started watching the first few minutes of that 5-0 match on youtbe and in fairness Pirri seems to be playing a B2B role rather than deepest midfielder so I'd agree that he wasn't primarily responsible for Cruyff (to the extent that any one player can be if it's not a Vogts man-marking job). Also agreed that his individual recognition seems to have been at least as pronounced in his later career as earlier on. All in all, I still lean very heavily towards the view that he''s underappreciated historically, although as a group I don't think we've really thoroughly researched him yet.
Il Fenomeno - R1 - VideoBrothers vs Mustard
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Any basis to that? I've been watching him excessively since I'm trying to make a big compilation about him and I haven't noticed a lack of mobility. He wasn't running around like Davids, but he was a right half in a WM, so he had to more around quite a lot. I'd take it as a criticism of someone like Pirlo, for example, but I didn't see anything like that in Bozsik.
He's not a defensive monster by any means, but Pat only has 3 attackers and my central core is strong enough for it not to be the issue. Otherwise I'm bringing Redondo in for the similar "relative lack of mobility", as he was quite similar to Bozsik in that regard from what I've seen of the latter. If I had him as a DM, I'd agree that he would be an issue around a GOAT-ish 10.
His performance against England was pretty great in terms of his all-round contribution, although this compilation doesn't show his off-the-ball movement.
I meant to post something more comprehensive about the Zico/Cruyff combination but I'm tired as feck so here's some bits and pieces:
All touches video of a superb Zico performance where he drags Flamengo from a 2 goal deficit to an eventual 3-2 victory. After the third goal he actually dropped back to a deeper playmaker role to close out the game, probably to provide an extra body defensively to protect the lead, and to ensure good quality distribution from deep when they regained possession. Most of the time as you'll see his contribution in the deeper build up was quite understated - Junior spent much more time on the ball in those areas and Zico was content to offer a passing option and move the ball on quickly and efficiently. He did love finding the overlapping Leandro though, and TAA will provide a similarly expansive option here.
I actually assumed more would be made of him starting nominally on the right but no one has mentioned it which is good, as firstly he and Cruyff have the freedom to interchange at will, and secondly he did so much of is best work from that position anyway, with his first goal in that video being case in point. Another example is his assist for Socrates vs Italy:
and this great goal where he starts the move from deep in his own half before popping up to finish it (you an just about see the initial pass on the replay from 2:20)
All touches video of a superb Zico performance where he drags Flamengo from a 2 goal deficit to an eventual 3-2 victory. After the third goal he actually dropped back to a deeper playmaker role to close out the game, probably to provide an extra body defensively to protect the lead, and to ensure good quality distribution from deep when they regained possession. Most of the time as you'll see his contribution in the deeper build up was quite understated - Junior spent much more time on the ball in those areas and Zico was content to offer a passing option and move the ball on quickly and efficiently. He did love finding the overlapping Leandro though, and TAA will provide a similarly expansive option here.
I actually assumed more would be made of him starting nominally on the right but no one has mentioned it which is good, as firstly he and Cruyff have the freedom to interchange at will, and secondly he did so much of is best work from that position anyway, with his first goal in that video being case in point. Another example is his assist for Socrates vs Italy:
and this great goal where he starts the move from deep in his own half before popping up to finish it (you an just about see the initial pass on the replay from 2:20)
A few final points before I call it a night.
Playing against Figueroa in drafts is shite: Largely due to his sheer quality, but also because footage and even match stats are so hard to come by to find any chinks in his armour. I knew he and Zico were bound to have faced each other a few times though, and while its hardly some home run piece of research, I was glad to find that Zico scored at least a couple of goals against him, one for Flamengo vs Internacional and this one for Brazil vs Chile:
Now that one can't be pinned on Don Elias at all, but it does demonstrate the inherent difficulty of trying to stop not one but two GOAT attackers from finding space between the lines. There's no lack of workrate in the opposition midfield and on the ball the balance looks good, but if you buy the Cruyff/Zico partnership functioning to anywhere near the sum of its parts (and I get that some won't) then I don't think that midfield trio can live with them in terms of defensive ability and nous.
Gerets: This probably falls closer to 'petty point-scoring' than 'actual point', but after the predictable but merciless rogering my modern right side of Azpi/TAA have recieved I was delighted to find that Gerets was on the wrong end of a trouncing from Cruyff (and Rensenbrink in fairness):
Lev fecking Yashin: I have no idea what the score is but you'll rarely see a starker difference in the quality and historical standing of our respective GKs than here, which presumably should count for something, right?
Playing against Figueroa in drafts is shite: Largely due to his sheer quality, but also because footage and even match stats are so hard to come by to find any chinks in his armour. I knew he and Zico were bound to have faced each other a few times though, and while its hardly some home run piece of research, I was glad to find that Zico scored at least a couple of goals against him, one for Flamengo vs Internacional and this one for Brazil vs Chile:
Now that one can't be pinned on Don Elias at all, but it does demonstrate the inherent difficulty of trying to stop not one but two GOAT attackers from finding space between the lines. There's no lack of workrate in the opposition midfield and on the ball the balance looks good, but if you buy the Cruyff/Zico partnership functioning to anywhere near the sum of its parts (and I get that some won't) then I don't think that midfield trio can live with them in terms of defensive ability and nous.
Gerets: This probably falls closer to 'petty point-scoring' than 'actual point', but after the predictable but merciless rogering my modern right side of Azpi/TAA have recieved I was delighted to find that Gerets was on the wrong end of a trouncing from Cruyff (and Rensenbrink in fairness):
Lev fecking Yashin: I have no idea what the score is but you'll rarely see a starker difference in the quality and historical standing of our respective GKs than here, which presumably should count for something, right?
The videobrothers strike again
A sturdy defensive display from Pirri in the DM role against Bayern in the semi final second leg against eventual winners Bayern Munich. He was solid and his reading of the game and positioning were impressive and he was fairly handy on 1v1s too, with a decent pass on him. He did drop back into the back line at times, moments which I've left extended footage of in that match compilation.
Harms has pretty much said all that needs to be said about Pirri and what we expect from him.
I'd say that's harsh tbh. Firstly I'd never really found Bozsik to be of the static type - ala Gerson, nor do we require a dynamo in that role. With Pirri being the physically commanding and dynamic DM (or CM/sweeper) that he is and Sir Bobby arguably being one of the most industrious attacking midfield greats who is very much a part of the midfield engine room, we ideally wanted a tactically intelligent and disciplined playmaker in that RCM spot and Bozsik was a fantastic fit.
I do understand where you are coming from though, Cruyff and Zico in the middle is bound to give headaches to anyone. That being said, Cruyff is playing a roaming role and wouldn't always be in the centre double teaming with Zico and on the occasions that he does pop up in the middle, I'd back our engine room with Sir Bobby's dynamism, Bozsik's positioning and Pirri's defensive nous to do a good collective job at facing the threat. Point being that I don't quite see Bozsik being isolated, nor do I in any way see him as a defensive liability.
One more thing that I'd love to highlight is our side's industry from the front to the back. From Simonsen, Kalle, Rensenbrink (to a relatively lesser extent) to Sir Bobby, our side is brimming with industry off the ball. Do watch Harms compilation of Kalle against Schalke where his defensive work shines through, in addition to getting an assist and a goal, and my compilations of Simonsen against Dynamo and France.
It should make us a tough nut to crack off the ball and more importantly, potentially force errors out of Pat's back 3 - Redondo will help with the build up play but a specialist ball player would have been preferable at the back as decent as Bratseth was on the ball.
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If a rugged and solid RB like Gerets struggles against Rensenbrink I wonder how Azpilicueta will fare
. Point taken though, Cruyff when he drops onto the left will cause headaches for Gerets as solid a RB as he was - Cruyff himself considered him as one of the leading RBs of the 80s and he's in the all time XIs of Sir Bobby Robson and Koeman. He does have excellent cover in Bossis at RCB who has played as a RB before and as an agile defender with good reading of the game, he should fare better than your average stopper in this custom defensive duty. As opposed to the Trent-Azpilicueta duo but enough about that.I'd like to highlight Sir Bobby Charlton who does seem to be going under the radar a wee bit with the focus being on Zico-Cruyff and our left flank.
Be it linking up with Bozsik and dictating play just as he did with Crerand (a link up that's bound to create problems for any midfield); slaloming through the midfield; pinging one from the deep to Rensenbrink-Simonsen and setting up dangerous 1v1 situations; getting on the end of a cross from Cabrini, slipping in a through ball to the predatory Kalle or unleashing a thunderbastard himself, Sir Bobby has to be one of the most complete and multi faceted attacking midfielders ever. And here he has the ideal platform to fully showcase that outrageous and varied game play of his to the fullest extent, with an uber dynamic forward line and a cracking midfield with the Magical Magyar Bozsik to dovetail with. He's bound to have a good game and could very well be the match winner here.
Calling it a night and hopefully I can make it back before the end of the game. Regardless of the result, great game Pat, really enjoyed the discussions.
Ps: Hopefully demyanenko_square_jaw doesn't pop into this thread
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I think I read the mobility point on a PES stats thread and couldn't tell too well from the England vs Hungary All-touch compilation - also it is a long time since I saw the full game.
A Redondo comparison gives me more to go on.
@Joga Bonito
What type of player was Crerand? I mostly remember him doing radio commentary. Was he similar to Bozsik?
Btw Video Brothers, really liking the Kalle vids.
What type of player was Crerand? I mostly remember him doing radio commentary. Was he similar to Bozsik?
Btw Video Brothers, really liking the Kalle vids.
Vote for us if you want to see more
I have a few more games that I’m going to go through regardless of the result though, that Bayern side had some amazing match ups throughout the years.
Bozsik was mobile enough (not sure where that even started). Certainly not someone you will easily walk over as it is been portrayed here for ages.
As for Redondo, in general, you should go through some of his younger Copa America performances to see you would actually prefer to avoid direct battle with him.
Don't see problem with either in the defensive sense here.
As for Redondo, in general, you should go through some of his younger Copa America performances to see you would actually prefer to avoid direct battle with him.
Don't see problem with either in the defensive sense here.
I hope that the quotes that I put around "lack of mobility" regarding Redondo were understood properly, as I wasn't accusing him of not being mobile, but rather made a point that Bozsik was not someone who had lacked mobility (as I'd probably rate them about the same in that regard, although Redondo was a bit more physical).
Yeah, final against Mexico in 1993 another one. Not sure you can get more physical then that with tackles flying all over the place.One of my favorite highlights
Think that the general perception of both (in the defensive sense) is a bit skewed. I would have no problem putting Redondo against GOAT number 10 for example. Not alone, but in combination with a good b2b engine aside and you get pretty much perfect combination. After all, it is always a team effort and not 1 against 1 as portrayed here.
Same, Pirri with Bozsik, Charlton provides a bit of everything and it isn't lacking in defensive sense (well, it wouldn't in pretty much any match, but since there is Cruyff/Zico I can see the issue with some people). But, it would rise questions against any midfield.
I don't really have a problem with Pirri at DM. I rate him quite highly(obviously) and whether it is DM or B2B IMO it doesn't take away anything from his game, as he was tactically brilliant player.
I rate him lower at CB(seen him used there), especially given other options for that spot in all time pool, but generally he can cope with a world class #10.
Where I can see Pat have advantage in this game is Bozsik. Zico/Cruyff is a very dynamic duo and I'd have preferred a b2b player besides Charlton and Pirri to shut down that area and have a bit of extra energy and grit in it.
That front three can create problems for any opposition and it is still beautifully constructed setup, albeit a bit unorthodox.
I rate him lower at CB(seen him used there), especially given other options for that spot in all time pool, but generally he can cope with a world class #10.
Where I can see Pat have advantage in this game is Bozsik. Zico/Cruyff is a very dynamic duo and I'd have preferred a b2b player besides Charlton and Pirri to shut down that area and have a bit of extra energy and grit in it.
That front three can create problems for any opposition and it is still beautifully constructed setup, albeit a bit unorthodox.
I still can't see how this is a bigger issue than Pat's right flank, it's not even in the same stratosphere.
@Gio @Šjor Bepo tagging those who had commented but not voted in the thread in case you want to make a decision.
Agree that both midfields look well constructed defensively in terms of fitting personnel & structure, including enough individual defensive nouse & grit.
@Pat_Mustard, you've tragically made an excellent case for Pirri as DM in the last draft
@Pat_Mustard, you've tragically made an excellent case for Pirri as DM in the last draft
Yeah that’s obviously his weak link.
I rate Cesar as a modern day versatile defender and his body of work at Chelsea is pretty good. In historical sense and in general - TAA - I don’t.
but then again Bossis is not someone I rate highly at CB and then it’s the keeper where pat has big advantage.
It’s very good matchup and a tiny difference that can go either way.
Why? Even if we go by big tournaments he had an outstanding Euros in 1984 playing this exact role — after Amoros got stupidly sent off, he was their only world-class defender and he was incredible, sniffing out the danger and moving the ball out to Tigana/Fernandez. More so, against such a unique set up with Cruyff/Zico & Seeler you don't really need a physical stopper next to Figueroa, but rather an intelligent, agile and fast defender like Bossis (hence why we chose him and not Perfumo).
He got 12th place in Ballon d'Or vote that year. And we're actually playing a better version of him, it's just that it's easier to explain his role using a more high-profile tournament.
Valderrama was pure class.One of my favorite highlights
I'm finding it tough to call this game, Cruyff & Zico are two of my favourite players ever and i can see them combining nicely and having them playing off Seeler is the cherry on top. But i can see your team rinsing that right side of Pat, i think it would be a high scoring game, if i had to chose it would probably be Pat, maybe a 3-2/4-3 type of game. I would also say the keeper makes a difference in such a tight game too.
A deep lying playmaker who was brilliant on the ball. Really caught my eye when I was watching United to catch more of Law etc. He was a good at maneuvering in tight spaces and was an excellent passer of the ball. Defensively he could put a shift in and could hold his own whilst he had a nice crisp tackle on him. Maybe I'll make a compilation of him later on when I get more time.
With the game drawing to a close, this could prove to be a decisive match deciding factor. Pat's side is brimming with greats but his defense could perhaps have been bolstered with a defensive great esp in light of sporting Trent and Azpilucueta which excarberates things there. With all the debate being on Charlton-Bozsik-Pirri losing the edge to Cruyff-Zico (which is fair enough), how will our forward trio of Rensenbrink-Kalle-Simonsen fair against his defense. Apart from McGrath whom I will say is capable of handling our attack, I'd back our forwards against the rest of his defense.
The game doesn't work like that obviously but our forwards perhaps deserve more credit in this match up. It has 2 time Balon D'Or Winner, 1 time runner up Kalle who was the talismans spearhead for both Germany (1980 Euros) and Bayern leading them to several titles.
As too was Simonsen who took up the mantle post Netzer and was magical for Gladback with a hattrick of Bundesliga victories, 2 UEFA cups and leading them to a European Cup Final where he scored a stunner.
Rensenbrink was a class figure who was magnificent for Holland and Standard Liege, with cracking displays against the likes of Liverpool, Bayern, Barcelona (premier sides of the 70s) and that 78 tournament where he took the WC by storm taking over the reigns of a Cruyff-less Dutch side.
Great game @Pat_Mustard . Was always bound to be a tight game as expected. Cheers for the civil and interesting discussions and good luck going forward. Looking forward to see how you strengthen the defense as the midfield and offense is pretty much set.
Well yeah, he's just the top 3-4 player in the PL team that went on to have the greatest PL season ever dominating in a fashion never seen before, he just ranks second in assists in the league from the fullback position - only KDB being ahead of him. He just reached back to back CL finals, putting in one of the most critical tie turning performances in the CL they went on to win, including the match winning assist against none other than Messi-led Barcelona. He's only hailed as possibly the greatest crosser the league has seen since David Beckham. And the one thing that can be criticised about him which is his 1v1 defensive ability against tricky players is well mitigated in this setup with a 5 at the back formation putting him in his absolute element from where he can pretty much be the deciding factor. And he's 21 years old!
David Alaba had similar, possibly a bit lesser, contribution at a similar age in a weaker league domestically as well as his great showings in the CL and he was hailed as the next Paolo Maldini. Not sure what this guy could have done more and in a setup like this I'd take him ahead of a dozen retired fullbacks given just how insane of a match decider he is. And again, he couldn't be in a better setting here. Back five to provide him the freedom of going forward, a great header of the ball in Seeler up front who wasn't just great in scoring headers but also knocking them down, which is a huge part of Liverpool's attack and how they create chaos in the opposition box, using his crosses. As well as two great wide forwards who will attract defenders giving him all the space he wants to pass/cross the ball into dangerous ares. Heck, his trademark diagonal from right to left that picks out Robertson would make Paul Scholes proud and he can switch play similarly here with Demyanenko being a willing runner on the other side. Literally he has all the tools at his disposal here to actually come out with an outstanding performance even in this company. Would be more reluctant had he been used in a bog standard 4 at the back, where even Klopp sometimes feels a bit worried about his defense and sometimes plays a more defensive option like Gomez/Milner but here Pat's hit the nail at the head. No qualms about him whatsoever.
Good luck going forward @Pat_Mustard
To be honest I’ve been struggling with all the R1 games, they all seem so evenly matched I keep wanting to choose draw.
Cool. I remember reading somewhere that Charlton liked being the main man in midfield so have always been a bit wary of putting him next to another playmaker but with a DLP next to him he looks great.
I just haven’t seen enough of his body of work in that position (like Maldini for example) to rank him above certain CB specialist that has played there consistently throughout his career.
I rate him as LB - both balanced and even attacking because he’s good on the Ball and good ball carrier.
Have never picked him before and always rated other players ahead of him so haven’t really done extensive research on him and the games he has featured and I’ve watched I’ve rather followed other players like Platini, Amoros, Tigana, etc so I really haven’t set my sight in him and haven’t got fond impression of him.
Maybe that explains it
Yeah, if you're going to watch any France games from 1984, take not of him. It was a fantastic performance, he had really kept it together at the back for them and he was a great fit for their creative and elegant way of playing.
Cheers lads. That was a really good, civilised discussion. Tbh I have mixed feelings about playing either of you, much less both, as I invariably feel slightly guilty if I win given how much work you put into the research and bolstering the match compilations section. Only watched the Pirri vs Bayern one so far (another good performance from him) but I'll try to get caught up over the weekend.
feck knows how the reinforcements will pan out for me. The defence is clearly the priority, but it'll be tough working around the restrictions, and I have very mixed feelings about replacing TAA if the opportunity arises. Now that the match is over, how do you both assess him strictly in the attacking sense? For me I honestly think the quality of his delivery (crossing, crossfield passes, general passing, the lot really) bears comparison with the best I've seen in his position, for all that he's far from the complete package at this point overall.
Great post that completely sums up why I was so fixated with picking him, despite his relative vulnerability defensively and his limited body of work. I can't believe I forgot to mention the bolded part as it was one of the main reasons why I fecking picked him
. The whole set up was based around maximising the space Cruyff and Zico could find in those withdrawn, inside forward areas, and TAA switching the play with crossfield passes was a major weapon in preventing the opponents from staying compact in the centre.Np mate. More time to focus on compilations now
.No doubt a quality player on the ball and he suits your set up to a tee. Regarding replacing him, I'd say it's a matter of whether his strengths (great ball playing ability, passing etc) can outweigh his weaknesses (defensive frailty and lack of a comprehensive portfolio in an all time setting). If you have a Thuram/Bergomi/ Vogts etc doing the RCB job and if the opposition does not have an overly imposing left flank, his attacking game is going to be an asset in your set up.
Either way it's great that you have Demyanenko who was great on either flank, should give you options moving forward.
I would get a better RCB or switch McGrath to that side and get a LCB ensuring the three at the back are a proper wall and keep TAA there.
Had planned to vote this morning but didn't get time and admittedly was struggling to separate between what Zico/Cruyff could create versus what Charlton/Rensinbrink could provide against a weaker right side. Videobrothers unlucky to exit in the first round for a couple of reasons. First, the future proofing in creating space for upgrades (a bit like @Physiocrat's team - both could really have smashed the reinforcement rounds). And second the overall strength and balance of their team. In effect I reckon their weakest link was better than anyone else's weakest player which is a testament to good drafting.
I've liked the Simonsen footage, lovely touch as you said @Joga Bonito. Interesting parallel today with BBC's World Cup Rewind showing USSR v Belgium from '86 and Gerets up against Demyanenko, as per here.
I've liked the Simonsen footage, lovely touch as you said @Joga Bonito. Interesting parallel today with BBC's World Cup Rewind showing USSR v Belgium from '86 and Gerets up against Demyanenko, as per here.
It's hard to argue against the quality of his delivery, it's really outstanding however you look at it. But then Marcelo is yet to make his mark on those drafts, even though he appears from time to time and I have a strong dislike for picking current players myself, simply because my judgement on their level still shifts week after week. There are some exceptions, but those are very rare and Trent didn't get there yet, neither did Azpilicueta (not sure if the latter with ever make it, while A&A is almost guaranteed to do so). It's unfair, but that's how it is — and him being a scouser doesn't help, as he won't get any sympathy points that can speed up this process.
It's not something that can be criticised about him. It's a serious weakness — not in a PL season, where he faces great wide player a few times a year and struggles with the likes of Zaha, but in an all-time draft against some of the best dribblers that ever played the game. You can criticise defensive game of Dani Alves or Roberto Carlos — Alexander-Arnold is very far from that level at the moment.
Alaba had impressed everyone because he didn't only contribute offensive and scored a screamer against Buffon, but also because he looked equally assured at the back. It's not a surprise that he often plays as a center back these days. Alexander-Arnold's contribution going forward outshines Alaba's, but he's a very raw player at the moment. Klopp found a great use for him, he has 3 water-carriers in midfield that unleash him and Robertson (so Pat doesn't actually add additional player to cover for him, as he has less players compensating for his freedom centrally). What he could've done more? If he would've defender better, he'd already be considered the next Cafu — not in advance, but right this second. And yeah, I know that people have already been comparing him to Cafu.
When you look at how Ole had played against Klopp recently (and we have a surprisingly decent record against Liverpool under him despite the obvious gulp of quality), you'll see that he exploited those zones that Trent and Robertson left behind, which limited their game massively as they were either forced to sit deeper than usual or to concede multiple dangerous counters per game. Trent was unsurprisingly more in focus, as we have more players that are comfortable on the left than on the right.
I can't be bothered to redo those myself, so Джеймс is James & Рэшфорд is Rashford. And those were not the only time when these situation happened. And while they have an additional man here, I'd bet my money on Rensenbrink beating both of TAA and Azpilicueta on more than one occasion, especially since he probably receive the ball further forward than TAA would be. More so, Kalle is probably the best possible player in history to act as this free-roaming forward that overloads vulnerable zones, like Rashford does in our games against scousers.
If he won't get any serious injury, it's hard not to see him becoming at the very least a generational great (quite possibly even better — but then look at Alaba). But if I want to pick a current player, he has to be flawless — like De Bruyne had been for years now. A&A is magnificent at some aspects and not great at others, so for me he doesn't make the cut yet.
And yeah, the most glaring thing was having 2 of your weakest players next to each other. As Joga said, if you have Thuram there, I can really buy (to an extent) A&A in this set up. Your reinforcements will be quite interesting.
TAA was a tricky one for me, as he has great offensive abilities, and has shown he can use them on a high level. It was ultimately his NT record (overall, and the 2018 WC in particular) that made me decide he shouldn't be counted as a fully established player yet. Especially when the main issue is defensive consistency, which usually develops with experience. I guess that's what made Southgate choose the less talented, but more experienced Trippier over him (correct me if I'm wrong), right within the relevant three year period & in the exact position TAA plays here.
My issue with Azpi was a different one. I watched Chelsea a lot during the Conte years, and I dug him somewhat less than most Caftards did at that time. To me he was certainly a good defender, but against players like Rensenbrink and Rummenigge, I'd trust him a good deal less than, say, Ferrara or Burgnich. So that gap should count for something as well.
One of these caveats in an otherwise watertight setup would have likely not swayed me. But both caveats, both on the same side of the team, amounted to a potential weakness for me, considering the quality of the opposition.
(Btw, the first part on consistency isn't some generic reservation against young players. Mbappe is an exception for example, as he has not only shown his ability, but also the consistency of a fully established player, and on all levels. Which should be the benchmark, imo.)
My issue with Azpi was a different one. I watched Chelsea a lot during the Conte years, and I dug him somewhat less than most Caftards did at that time. To me he was certainly a good defender, but against players like Rensenbrink and Rummenigge, I'd trust him a good deal less than, say, Ferrara or Burgnich. So that gap should count for something as well.
One of these caveats in an otherwise watertight setup would have likely not swayed me. But both caveats, both on the same side of the team, amounted to a potential weakness for me, considering the quality of the opposition.
(Btw, the first part on consistency isn't some generic reservation against young players. Mbappe is an exception for example, as he has not only shown his ability, but also the consistency of a fully established player, and on all levels. Which should be the benchmark, imo.)
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Am I missing something?
9 Video Bros
7 Mustard
says the poll and yet people are saying Mustard won through?
9 Video Bros
7 Mustard
says the poll and yet people are saying Mustard won through?