Imagine another player is captain - do you want a new CB to partner with Lindelof or Maguire?

[tomaldinho1]

I'm not doubting what you're saying, but purely because I can't think of many, can you give any examples where this has directly lead to goals against this season?

Everton first goal, DCL's run. DCL isn't even that fast.

 

[harms]

A realistic choice would be Maguire, with his fitness record playing a big part. Stylistically I’d prefer Lindelöf though, as I can at least theoretically envision him in a high-ish defensive line, which is something that we should move towards to. In an ideal world I’d prefer 2 new center backs (or fit and consistent Bailly, which simply won’t happen in our universe), obviously.

We won’t sell or bench Maguire in any considerable future though, so better buckle up and hope for an unlikely significant improvement from him. Having a better suited partner will obviously help cover some of his weaknesses.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

Everton first goal, DCL's run. DCL isn't even that fast.

That led to a crossing opportunity, not a goal directly. It should still have been dealt with by De Gea.

Dias (who gets massively hyped by some on here), got done by Salah for the penalty yesterday and could have seen red, ironically for the exact weakness that Maguire gets beaten round the head with.

Not being deliberately pedantic, but I'm just putting forth that yes it's a weakness of Maguires, but his good qualities balance it out.

 

[Borys]

Arguably the best in Jose's system at Spurs but exposed in Ole's high line. This is the issue, not that we overpaid for him but that we're using him in a role where he will keep getting caught in the manner he does - same for lindelof. He is however the best of the two of them, especially now it looks like Lindelof needs surgery whereas Maguire is concrete Ron reborn.

We play high line? Actually I don't think his lack of pace is really the issue this season, can't recall many goals we've conceded like that- you can refresh my memory. This will be even less of an issue if he is paired next to fast CB.

Excellent player in the right setup but it's very typical of our recruitment post SAF, we spent a world record for a CB on a player who doesn't perfectly fit our tactics.

I do agree with that statement BUT if you look at players like that ("doesn't perfectly fit our tactics") you'll be always disappointed,

Why do people think Maguire is so dominant in the air? I think he's one of the worst players I've seen in the air. He misreads the flight of the ball all the time and is hardly ever there to challenge the header, we concede to so many crosses it's unreal. He commands nothing. Then at the other end of the pitch he's so wasteful and misses 15 free headers before scoring 1. Blows my mind how overrated his aerial ability is.

Yeah, how anyone can label HM as excellent in the air is really mindblowing.

5th most headers won in the league, 15th in terms of % of aerial duels won (there are only 3-4 players with significantly higher score, and if we consider only high numbers he's 9th). I don't know if that is "excellent" but that's top 3% in the league so I'd say Maguire is dominant in the air for sure.

 

[dev1l]

Everton first goal, DCL's run. DCL isn't even that fast.

Are you sure of that?
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo...s/theo-walcott-dominic-calvert-lewin-14432671

 

[Okey]

It's not even close. Lindelof is such painfully weak and average defender, it hurts to watch him play for us. Definitely Maguire and the new guy. The importance of Maguire carrying the ball for us and keeping us ticking over front to back is underrated. In an ideal world, a great DM and you can upgrade both CBs.

 

[BR7]

Quite an easy choice for me OP, Maguire

 

[TwoSheds]

Maguire is miles better than Lindelof. He can actually head a ball for starters.

 

[jem]

There's literally no justification for that opinion, Smalling was average at best with even bigger weaknesses than Maguire. There's a reason why one is playing at one of the best clubs in the world and is the first choice for his national team, while the other one has been disgarded. Smalling had no place at a top club, he had the technical ability of a league 1 player.

there literally is, and that is the fact that it’s an opinion. Smalling was at a top club for a number of years, so clearly the likes of Fergie and Van Gaal rated him, and I’ll defer to their opinions over some rando on the internet. Grow up.

 

[tomaldinho1]

That led to a crossing opportunity, not a goal directly. It should still have been dealt with by De Gea.

Dias (who gets massively hyped by some on here), got done by Salah for the penalty yesterday and could have seen red, ironically for the exact weakness that Maguire gets beaten round the head with.

Not being deliberately pedantic, but I'm just putting forth that yes it's a weakness of Maguires, but his good qualities balance it out.

I don't understand why you would differentiate - the ball can go diagonally either way and it lead to a goal/goal scoring opportunity. It is a way to expose and get behind our defence. Dias does get over-hyped on here but he suffers the same issue as Maguire regarding mobility - he's just in a team that doesn't constantly turn over possession and therefore he isn't as exposed AND he has one of the best sweeper keepers behind him.

I don't not rate Maguire FYI I just think he'd be better in a deeper line. Agree it's a keeper error but the cross comes from that channel and him being outpaced.

We play high line? Actually I don't think his lack of pace is really the issue this season, can't recall many goals we've conceded like that- you can refresh my memory. This will be even less of an issue if he is paired next to fast CB.

Yes. Aside from some of the CL ties and when we played 5 at the back I think we play a high line. You're a good stats guy as I recall - I saw a stat about offsides provoked and we were top of the league for catching the opponent offside (Leeds were one behind us up to Jan), I need to find another source though as annoying the PL website now says it 'no longer has data' for offsides provoked. Leeds also have relatively slow CBs and play a high line which makes sense to me, Id imagine Soton, Pool and City are also high on the list.

It's not that there will be lots of goals that come immediately from this, it's that it will lead to goal scoring opportunities (like Everton) - it's just something I see when I watch us that the channels either side and/or between our CBs are very attackable. I've always been an AWB/Shaw fan as I think they are directly responsible for the reason Maguire, Lindelof & DDG can play together and it's only now, that Ole has clearly asked them to push on more, that we are starting to realise how vulnerable Maguire/Lindelof/DDG is as a trio. There were other instances in that game, where DCL missed a one on one from a long ball over the top between the two CBs (played from near the by line as I recall) and another where it was too far wide but he'd broken the offside trap and just needed a better ball to be one on one again. That's three times it has allowed an opponent in behind us in one game off the top of my head.

Agreed on buying a faster CB and that seems the plan, I would love Konate or Kimpembe.

Are you sure of that?
https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spo...s/theo-walcott-dominic-calvert-lewin-14432671

Whilst I am sure the Liverpool Echo is ok, citing an article from March 2018 is not ideal. A quick google tells me he's not top 10: (this was last season: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ed-qe_IWkAAwF7Y?format=jpg&name=large ) and I stand by the fact I don't think he's that fast - Rashford, Mane, Son, Traore etc. are who would fall into that bracket. Happy to be proved wrong if there are more up-to-date stats.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

there literally is, and that is the fact that it’s an opinion. Smalling was at a top club for a number of years, so clearly the likes of Fergie and Van Gaal rated him, and I’ll defer to their opinions over some rando on the internet. Grow up.

What reason can you possibly prefer Smalling? He’s quite clearly a worse footballer.

 

[Lentwood]

Maguire is about five times the player Lindelof is

 

[LuisNaniencia]

I don't understand why you would differentiate - the ball can go diagonally either way and it lead to a goal/goal scoring opportunity. It is a way to expose and get behind our defence. Dias does get over-hyped on here but he suffers the same issue as Maguire regarding mobility - he's just in a team that doesn't constantly turn over possession and therefore he isn't as exposed AND he has one of the best sweeper keepers behind him.

I don't not rate Maguire FYI I just think he'd be better in a deeper line. Agree it's a keeper error but the cross comes from that channel and him being outpaced.



Yes. Aside from some of the CL ties and when we played 5 at the back I think we play a high line. You're a good stats guy as I recall - I saw a stat about offsides provoked and we were top of the league for catching the opponent offside (Leeds were one behind us up to Jan), I need to find another source though as annoying the PL website now says it 'no longer has data' for offsides provoked. Leeds also have relatively slow CBs and play a high line which makes sense to me, Id imagine Soton, Pool and City are also high on the list.

It's not that there will be lots of goals that come immediately from this, it's that it will lead to goal scoring opportunities (like Everton) - it's just something I see when I watch us that the channels either side and/or between our CBs are very attackable. I've always been an AWB/Shaw fan as I think they are directly responsible for the reason Maguire, Lindelof & DDG can play together and it's only now, that Ole has clearly asked them to push on more, that we are starting to realise how vulnerable Maguire/Lindelof/DDG is as a trio. There were other instances in that game, where DCL missed a one on one from a long ball over the top between the two CBs (played from near the by line as I recall) and another where it was too far wide but he'd broken the offside trap and just needed a better ball to be one on one again. That's three times it has allowed an opponent in behind us in one game off the top of my head.

Agreed on buying a faster CB and that seems the plan, I would love Konate or Kimpembe.


Whilst I am sure the Liverpool Echo is ok, citing an article from March 2018 is not ideal. A quick google tells me he's not top 10: (this was last season: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ed-qe_IWkAAwF7Y?format=jpg&name=large ) and I stand by the fact I don't think he's that fast - Rashford, Mane, Son, Traore etc. are who would fall into that bracket. Happy to be proved wrong if there are more up-to-date stats.

It's an important distinction, if we were constantly conceding one on one's because of Maguires lack of pace, it could be reason to replace him. If it's half chances and crossing opportunities, then you could say that happens to all center backs and Maguire should stay.

 

[Borys]

I don't understand why you would differentiate - the ball can go diagonally either way and it lead to a goal/goal scoring opportunity. It is a way to expose and get behind our defence. Dias does get over-hyped on here but he suffers the same issue as Maguire regarding mobility - he's just in a team that doesn't constantly turn over possession and therefore he isn't as exposed AND he has one of the best sweeper keepers behind him.

I don't not rate Maguire FYI I just think he'd be better in a deeper line. Agree it's a keeper error but the cross comes from that channel and him being outpaced.



Yes. Aside from some of the CL ties and when we played 5 at the back I think we play a high line. You're a good stats guy as I recall - I saw a stat about offsides provoked and we were top of the league for catching the opponent offside (Leeds were one behind us up to Jan), I need to find another source though as annoying the PL website now says it 'no longer has data' for offsides provoked. Leeds also have relatively slow CBs and play a high line which makes sense to me, Id imagine Soton, Pool and City are also high on the list.

It's not that there will be lots of goals that come immediately from this, it's that it will lead to goal scoring opportunities (like Everton) - it's just something I see when I watch us that the channels either side and/or between our CBs are very attackable. I've always been an AWB/Shaw fan as I think they are directly responsible for the reason Maguire, Lindelof & DDG can play together and it's only now, that Ole has clearly asked them to push on more, that we are starting to realise how vulnerable Maguire/Lindelof/DDG is as a trio. There were other instances in that game, where DCL missed a one on one from a long ball over the top between the two CBs (played from near the by line as I recall) and another where it was too far wide but he'd broken the offside trap and just needed a better ball to be one on one again. That's three times it has allowed an opponent in behind us in one game off the top of my head.

Agreed on buying a faster CB and that seems the plan, I would love Konate or Kimpembe.


Whilst I am sure the Liverpool Echo is ok, citing an article from March 2018 is not ideal. A quick google tells me he's not top 10: (this was last season: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ed-qe_IWkAAwF7Y?format=jpg&name=large ) and I stand by the fact I don't think he's that fast - Rashford, Mane, Son, Traore etc. are who would fall into that bracket. Happy to be proved wrong if there are more up-to-date stats.

Good point about the number of times teams have been caught offside. Would be interesting te see that if you can find the source. Just by guessing I'd say possession based teams (like you mentioned) should be topping that stat but it might not be true.

I'm not so sure we play high line in general. It seems recently we try to keep the ball more, but half a season we were just very direct and stretched.
Anyway, I thought pairing Maguire with Bailly made sense and we really looked more confident, but Ole dropped that idea. Fast CB is definitely the way to go though, and having 4 good (3,5 considering Eric injury record) options make us very strong in that area.

It's an important distinction, if we were constantly conceding one on one's because of Maguires lack of pace, it could be reason to replace him. If it's half chances and crossing opportunities, then you could say that happens to all center backs and Maguire should stay.

Yeah That's my view as well. It might be interesting to see how many goals from each category we've conceded this season, but surely counter attacking goals or the ones when defenders got outpaced are not in the top?


Basically if we upgrade on Lindelof (who is still decent CB but probably not strong enough for EPL) and get a fast defender, we will have 3 fast players in back 4. In that case Maguire lack of pace will be insignificant.

 

[MadDogg]

Maguire should get first chance as his top level is higher, but if he continues making as many mistakes and average games as he currently does then Lindelof should get a chance. There's been very little between them over the last 18 months.

 

[RedDevil@84]

I respect that people can have different opinions but threads like this just makes me think if how crazy or lack of judgment some fans can have. It´s not even close. Maguire is far better player in pretty much every aspect of the game and in some ways it´s ridiculously ovbious how much better he is. Last game, Maguire hadone of his worse games that´s for sure but even in this games, Lindelof beat him to be a worse player. Apart that Maguire is one of our best playersthis season, not only defensively but adding another dimension to attack. Lindelof is just a passanger and every time we don´t concede after his mistake Lindelof fanboys will come and praise him to noend. Ridiculous.

Now close the thread.

All threads are ridiculous, because only my opinion is correct. Doesn't even need a discussion.

 

[MadDogg]

What reason can you possibly prefer Smalling? He’s quite clearly a worse footballer.

He's worse with the ball at his feet, but he's better defensively. Neither Maguire nor Lindelof have come remotely close to Smalling at his best defensively, and his average defensive performance was also higher.

In saying that, Smalling's last season with us was arguably his worst and there were signs he was losing a bit of pace. It may have been just an off season (which was still just as good as Lindelof beside him who has continued that same level), or it may have been the beginning of him declining and we sold at the right time. Without watching a lot of him at Roma it's hard to say (even then it would be difficult since that league is obviously far kinder to declining players).

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

Jones

 

[JMack1234]

Maguire has big weaknesses but he's a much better player than Victor Lindelof.

If you bring in a competent, quick CB with a good injury record then we'll see a a big improvement in Maguire. After all, Maguire looked 10x better when he was playing next to Bailly.

 

[criticalanalysis]

Ridiculous question. Maguire.

This.

Lindelof.

He's easier to plan around and a better 2nd fiddle. Maguire has too glaring a weakness to be a 2nd fiddle and must be planned around, but he's not good enough for that. Also, Maguire is too individualistic, but Lindelof is much more team oriented which is better for a 2nd fiddle CB.

If you'd asked the question at the start of last season the easy answer would be Maguire, but I think Lindelof has improved to the level where he's been as good as or better than Maguire for the past few months, despite it rarely being acknowledged.

I don't get this. A quality defender is someone, who has pace, is aggressive, can read the game and has physical presence. Basically a faster version of Maguire.

So pairing this hypothetical new CB with Lindelof changes nothing with our current defence as this new guy will still be doing the brunt of the work because Lindelof is a passive lily.

You won't get any improvement on the defence as Lindelof isn't suddenly going to be more aerially dominant, assertive or proactively influence the game.

We don't want a '2nd fiddle', we want two defenders, who actually like and will engage in defending. Maguire may not be the answer but between the two, he is absolutely is the better option to pair with a new CB.

 

[Red00012]

Maguire by quiet a distance

 

[CM]

Maguire. When he's at his best he can actually be quite a good defender who I would trust. I think there are too many limitations in Lindelof's game to say the same for him.

 

[cyril C]

Why Captain being an issue with another CB addition? Don't give me that LVG BS that captain must play. When a captain is unfit or injury, you can't play him anyway. So even if Maguire is captain, why is it such an issue to rest him, or worse, play Lindelof + XYZ in a CL final? Rooney did not start in the FA (& Europa?) final neither. I would feel uncomfortable with a Lindelof+Jones partner in a final.

Get a CB more reliable than Bailey, faster than Lindelof/Maguire, better header than Lindelof, should always be our priority.

 

[RkkMan]

there literally is, and that is the fact that it’s an opinion. Smalling was at a top club for a number of years, so clearly the likes of Fergie and Van Gaal rated him, and I’ll defer to their opinions over some rando on the internet. Grow up.

If we`ll go by this logic Maguire was wanted by Pep and Jose, highly rated by Brendan Rodgers who has Leicester in the top 4 and highly rated by Southgate who got England to a World Cup Semi Final. The two managers who Smalling played under either wanted a new CB to replace him(Jose) or dropped him from the National Team for years(Southgate)
I think I`ll go with the opinions of those who rate Maguire as a better defender over some internet rando

 

[Brad2020]

Yes, we need a center back who has some pace. Maguire and Lindelof are always getting run down by speedy forwards. Obviously Lindelof will be the replacement, but he would be a great bench player so I wouldn't sell him.

I would like a new captain also, but not Fernandez, because United already lean on him too much for success on the pitch.

Ideally I would like United to sign Jack Grealish with the captaincy in mind....but that of course may not happen considering his will value has gone up even more since last summer.

 

[Poborsky's hair]

All threads are ridiculous, because only my opinion is correct. Doesn't even need a discussion.

There is a huge difference in a having a meassured opinion based on some facts and taking a wild guess biased by personal agenda and complete lack of knowledge. I understand some lads have never stepped on a football pitch and played competetive football only on Playstation but ffs, it´s not Nani vs Ronaldo discussion, it´s more Evra vs Alexander fecking Buttner.

 

[arthurka]

Maguire has been really solid this season but I think we will need to find him a reliable and a solid new partner.
Lindelöf isn´t good enough to be a starter and Bailly can´t be relied upon. I still think we should go for Ramos this summer he would give this defense a massive boost.

 

[A-man]

We play high line? Actually I don't think his lack of pace is really the issue this season, can't recall many goals we've conceded like that- you can refresh my memory. This will be even less of an issue if he is paired next to fast CB.

...,

5th most headers won in the league, 15th in terms of % of aerial duels won (there are only 3-4 players with significantly higher score, and if we consider only high numbers he's 9th). I don't know if that is "excellent" but that's top 3% in the league so I'd say Maguire is dominant in the air for sure.

We have not conceded many goals because of Maguire being slow. Not this season, not last season. It is very exaggerated. There have been a few 1v1 but it’s not alarming or more than the average CB in PL would concede. In general we haven’t conceded many goals in open play at all the last 1.5 year.


Maguire is dominant in the air. However the stats include both offensive and defensive aerials. He challenge for slightly more defensive aerial duels than Lindelof, but it is a small difference, as many of Maguires aerials are from corners (every corner is aimed at him). Actually I would say it is more his aerial dominance and presence that is impressive, rather than his stats.

 

[A-man]

As it is now, Maguire is our most important CB because he has an aerial presence that nobody else has. He can’t be replaced by any of the others if we want to keep aerial dominance. If we got another good CB who was good in the air, then we would depend less on him.

 

[Dearg hÉireann]

Can't stand either of them playing for Manchester United, they are both very average and cost £110 million combined which makes me want to throttle our recruitment department and get sick at the same time.

I appreciate that Maguire is decent in the air but Christ he's the slowest lump & if that wasn't bad enough he's terrible at reading the game and has no aggression to make up for all his flaws.

Less said about Lindelof the better.

With the pair of those tits in the first 11 we won't win any trophies any time soon.

Can't even answer the question, sorry, my dislike runs too deep

 

[red_de_pologne]

Maguire is good in the air, but when defending he's very often far away from where the ball lands in the box. He's still comfortably better than Lindelof.

 

[JJ12]

Maguire without it being close

 

[Hughes35]

Not even a question. It's Maguire + 1.

Maguire + Bailly is actually a very good partnership but Bailly can't stay fit.

We basically need to sign a Bailly copy / upgrade that can play 50 games a season.

 

[Banat]

Maguire is superior player to Lindelof so Maguire. He improved lately and is always among the better players on the pitch.
We still over paid for him though.
Would like to see Ramos or Upamecano next to him, Baily and Lindelof as backups

 

[Adam-Utd]

Maguire.

Lindelof would still be at benfica now if Jose didn’t demand he have a signing his scouts recommended to keep him happy

Lindelof also has nothing he specialises at. He can be good on his day but his base level is just too dodgy for PL

 

[Kag]

They would obviously partner Maguire. He’s one of the best centre halves in the division and excellent in the air. He has his shortcomings but he is pretty much defending the 18 yard box by himself.

Lindelof is a fanny who is quite fortunate to get the minutes he does. If Bailly wasn’t (largely) a waste of space then he wouldn’t get a look in.

Until we replace Matic with somebody younger who can actually smell danger then our defence will be exposed.

 

[jem]

If we`ll go by this logic Maguire was wanted by Pep and Jose, highly rated by Brendan Rodgers who has Leicester in the top 4 and highly rated by Southgate who got England to a World Cup Semi Final. The two managers who Smalling played under either wanted a new CB to replace him(Jose) or dropped him from the National Team for years(Southgate)
I think I`ll go with the opinions of those who rate Maguire as a better defender over some internet rando

Well-played! But you are being a bit disingenuous saying 'the two managers', when it is really 'two of the managers' - and one of them is Gareth Southgate. The poster I replied to said that Smalling had no place at a top club, yet two of the most esteemed managers of recent times clearly felt he did. As for Maguire, I honestly don't think Rodgers was that bothered to lose him (of course he was happy to look the part to extract maximum value from us.) Now that's enough from you RkkMan - back to the corner you go.

 

[RkkMan]

Well-played! But you are being a bit disingenuous saying 'the two managers', when it is really 'two of the managers' - and one of them is Gareth Southgate. The poster I replied to said that Smalling had no place at a top club, yet two of the most esteemed managers of recent times clearly felt he did. As for Maguire, I honestly don't think Rodgers was that bothered to lose him (of course he was happy to look the part to extract maximum value from us.) Now that's enough from you RkkMan - back to the corner you go.

Those two esteemed managers didnt feel he was good enough though hence why one dropped him from the National Team entirely(for Maguire) and the other wanted a CB to replace him not play alongside him so your logic there makes no sense.
Rodgers rated him highly enough for him to let him go only for 80m even though us and City bid 70m for him. He even played him the whole of Leicester`s pre season and made him captain for one of those games so its "disingenuous" to suggest Rodgers wasnt bothered to lose him.

 

[jem]

Those two esteemed managers didnt feel he was good enough though hence why one dropped him from the National Team entirely(for Maguire) and the other wanted a CB to replace him not play alongside him so your logic there makes no sense.
Rodgers rated him highly enough for him to let him go only for 80m even though us and City bid 70m for him. He even played him the whole of Leicester`s pre season and made him captain for one of those games so its "disingenuous" to suggest Rodgers wasnt bothered to lose him.

And two esteemed managers clearly did rate him (and Moyes did too and I rate him as high as I do Southgate.) Learn.

 

[Mark Pawelek]

Yes, and a new CDM.