"Importance of a cup win thread" Top 4 gone?

[Oo0AahCantona]

I'd like to pick your brains and open some discussion to the potential long term benefit of prioritising a cup win over finishing 5th/6th for next season.

I'm of the opinion that today was the nail in the coffin for a 4th place finish, whilst its true there's enough games to go, we haven't shown anything to suggest we are capable of leapfrogging any of Leicester/spurs/arsenal/city let alone west ham or Liverpool with a game in hand.

I still think we are good enough on our day to beat any non elite side, and i would argue the benefits of a cup win, either the FA cup we haven't lifted in over a decade or the europa league we have never won could have a massive benefit to the dressing room going into next season with hopefully a new man at the helm and a fresh outlook.

Now, im not advocating we hopefully lose games, as thats nonsense, but having thursday nights next year even with some big signings in the transfer window could really hamper a title challenge next season, we saw with liverpool the year they nearly won the league that having a less congested schedule compared to the rest was massive for them being fresh and mounting their challenge.

So, rest and rotate key players to increase the chance of a cup win, which could lead to either a champions league place, or a FA we have really missed out on, in addition to a easier fixture list next year? Or press on with the league slog, with no priority for a cup competition, what are people thoughts for the long term benefit of the club?

 

[Sylar]

The problem is the manager and who he considers "key players". Im sure for him he thinks Blind, Carrick, Fellaini and Rooney are the key players even though we play the worst with them.

IMO, without sounding too negative, I think we should be prioritizing Europa League due to the rewards of winning it (and sacrifice League - 5th and 6th would be worse for us for next season than not getting Europe at all).

 

[Oo0AahCantona]

Yeah i know its a difficult reality to accept, given where we should be fighting in the league table, but the reality of where we are right now does pose questions, i think a europa league win would save the season.

 

[Lurpak99]

Now, im not advocating we hopefully lose games, as thats nonsense, but having thursday nights next year even with some big signings in the transfer window could really hamper a title challenge next season, we saw with liverpool the year they nearly won the league that having a less congested schedule compared to the rest was massive for them being fresh and mounting their challenge.

So, rest and rotate key players to increase the chance of a cup win, which could lead to either a champions league place, or a FA we have really missed out on, in addition to a easier fixture list next year? Or press on with the league slog, with no priority for a cup competition, what are people thoughts for the long term benefit of the club?

I hate that excuse about the EL "oh it's so tough to play thursday-sunday, while sunday-wednesday and saturday-tuesday is fine". We tried a non-European Cup season last season, and we were nowhere near the title anyway. We see ourselves as a big club, so we gotta be able to handle both dometic and European football, and there simply isn't any excuse not to.

 

[rpitchfo]

I just think it's arrogant to assume simply prioritising gives us any increased chance of winning one of the cups we are still in.


We are terrible...and that's why we won't win either cup we are still in. Nothing to do with "priority"

 

[K2K]

I'd just continue playing the kids.

That was fun at least.

 

[Red Dreams]

If we win the Europa Cup do we get a CL place? Yeah big ask I know. The way we are playing we will get knocked out by the scousers.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

It doesn't matter, the reasons why you believe we have no chance of getting top four, despite being six points behind City with 24 points still to play for, are the same reasons why we don't stand a chance of winning either the Europa League or the FA Cup. We're not good enough. We may get one scrappy win but there are more than one teams in each competition who are better than us. And we have hardly been convincing in Cup competitions under LvG. How difficult do you think it would be for WHU to get a draw and have the replay in London?

One other thing. We already have had a season with no European football plus one season with very few points won (till now) in the last two years. People seriously underestimate the effect this will have on our UEFA ranking and that we have to carry each bad season in Europe like a monkey on our back for the next five years. It's extremely elitist to prefer no European football to Europa League. But even if it comes to the point that Thursday nights will hinder a possible title challenge, it will be much better for us to actually have a choice to make. It's six, relatively easy, group games. If we're in the title race come next March, then we'll see which will be our priorities.

And to tell you the truth, i wouldn't like to see United finish very low in PL. For a club that likes to say it was the (good) football that brought all the success and the money and not the other way around, the league works like a mirror of our choices, both on and off the pitch, regarding the footballing matters of the organization that's called Manchester United. That's why i didn't give a flying rat's arse when the scousers won the CL back in 2005 while finishing almost 30 points behind Chelsea. Because i knew that Ferguson was trying to create a side that would go all the way in the league marathon and get 85-90 points in order to cross the finish line first. And when you have a team that can do that, you know you are here to stay and you're not a one season wonder.

In that sense, i don't want us to prioritize the two cups. I want us to give everything we've got on all fronts and see where it will lead us. When you've hit rock bottom, you can't get through to the players the message that it's alright to lose matches because it doesn't matter. You have to work on each and every game and never give up. Show the players and the fans that defeat isn't acceptable no matter the league position.

 

[Minimalist]

League is always priority. I don't care what other clubs have done over the years.

League is what should always be the main consideration regardless of anything else we've got on.

Cup wins always seem totally unremarkable when you finish outside of the top three anyway (arguably if you don't finish as winner of your league).

Is our season a success if we win the FA Cup? The EL? Both? Not really to me. It's just less shit. It's still a bit shit.

 

[C'est Moi Cantona]

We can prioritise what we want but the reality is I don't think LvG knows our best team, I don't think anyone does, so whilst he may save Martial, Smalling, Carrick, etc for the Europa, are these players in good enough form/good enough to go very far in that competition anyway, it seems to me he stubbles along and when he gets an inclining of form from the team, either injuries, or him meddling stop the momentum and then he needs start over again.

I think he is just better playing what he deems his best side for the next game, and just hope we do something unexpected.

 

[Red Dreams]

Sure we need to take a match at a time. But we have a good chance in the FA Cup and perhaps the Europa Cup if we get past the scousers.

The FA Cup may not be what it used to be but it would be nice for the supporters to have something to cheer after such an awful season. And we have a very good chance to win it.

 

[adexkola]

League is always priority. I don't care what other clubs have done over the years.

League is what should always be the main consideration regardless of anything else we've got on.

Cup wins always seem totally unremarkable when you finish outside of the top three anyway (arguably if you don't finish as winner of your league).

Is our season a success if we win the FA Cup? The EL? Both? Not really to me. It's just less shit. It's still a bit shit.

That's rubbish, and you're glossing over a huge portion of United's history if you think that's true.

 

[Minimalist]

That's rubbish, and you're glossing over a huge portion of United's history if you think that's true.

Another way to look at it:

• Did anyone really care or feel impressed when Arsenal won the FA Cup twice in a row? Still didn't mean much in terms of their title credentials.
• Did it mean much when Chelsea won the EL despite their league performances?
• Did it mean much when Liverpool won the CL in 2005?

Again, not for the fans of those clubs. I mean the impact of those cup wins over the long-term.

Sometimes it does spur on a side if it's building up to something: example our LC win in 2006. We however finished 2nd that season. Not 7th.

I understand the pleasure of winning those in the short-term but the idea of prioritising them over the league is not right for me.

 

[adexkola]

Another way to look at it:

• Did anyone really care or feel impressed when Arsenal won the FA Cup twice in a row? Still didn't mean much in terms of their title credentials.
• Did it mean much when Chelsea won the EL despite their league performances?
• Did it mean much when Liverpool won the CL in 2005?

Again, not for the fans of those clubs. I mean the impact of those cup wins over the long-term.

Sometimes it does spur on a side if it's building up to something: example our LC win in 2006. We however finished 2nd that season. Not 7th.

I understand the pleasure of winning those in the short-term but the idea of prioritising them over the league is not right for me.

We're not prioritizing anything right now. We're out of the running for the league title. It would be a different story if we had realistic hopes of ending up first at the end of the day.

Why does a trophy need to have a long term impact for it to be useful? That's what I disagree with. At the end of the day if we win the Europa league we would have done better than a lot of great clubs in Europe. That alone is worth aspiring for, and at the end of the day history remembers the silver. Yes, even those 2 FA Cups, and european trophies in the midst of league mediocrity.

 

[Minimalist]

We're not prioritizing anything right now. We're out of the running for the league title. It would be a different story if we had realistic hopes of ending up first at the end of the day.

Why does a trophy need to have a long term impact for it to be useful? That's what I disagree with. At the end of the day if we win the Europa league we would have done better than a lot of great clubs in Europe. That alone is worth aspiring for, and at the end of the day history remembers the silver. Yes, even those 2 FA Cups, and european trophies in the midst of league mediocrity.

We should be prioritising the league. Why shouldn't we just because we're not going to win the title? We need to finish as high as we possibly can (to hell with cups quite frankly). I don't follow your logic at all with that and I don't subscribe to that line of thinking at all. I sincerely hope the club doesn't either.

I simply don't want to see us resting players in the league to benefit performances in the FA/EL Cups.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

We should be prioritising the league. Why shouldn't we just because we're not going to win the title? We need to finish as high as we possibly can (to hell with cups quite frankly). I don't follow your logic at all with that and I don't subscribe to that line of thinking at all. I sincerely hope the club doesn't either.

I simply don't want to see us resting players in the league to benefit performances in the FA/EL Cups.

I find that bizarre to be honest.

League is gone and we aren't getting top 4, so why would we focus on that over the cups? It makes no sense.

 

[Judas]

We could literally not turn up for our league games and I wouldn't be anymore confident about our chances in the cup competitions. We're a mess of a team.

 

[DrunkenBeaver]

Nobody feels less horny about yesterday's result than I but top 4 hasn't 'gone' at all.

 

[Sky1981]

We wont win the cup not because we dont want to, lvg can ditch everything and go all out for the cap and still come short

Do you think he didn't try to win against wba? He tried but he's just not good enough

 

[Green_Red]

Its funny how people are now saying Carrick is no good. When LvG wasnt playing him everyone was saying LvG was a fool for not playing him. feckin joke it is.

 

[NJM78]

Nobody feels less horny about yesterday's result than I but top 4 hasn't 'gone' at all.

Mathematically no but in all probability yes it has. We have a 45% win ratio in the league, we have been shite bar a handful of games, we score so little goals, our squad is paper thin and we have the most difficult run in of the top 6. I will be shocked if we finish on more than 63 points and nothing at all even hints that we'll be able to go on a run whilst relying on teams above us to drop more points than us, although they haven't done that all season so far. I reckon we'll finish 6th personally.

 

[Adebesi]

Im no more confident we'll turn up for our cup games than I am for our league games, but if the question is what I would choose between a cup or a 4th placed finish, I guess I probably would choose a cup now - just.

The issue is I have always worried that attracting players is considerably harder if you arent in the CL. So if the cup we win is the Europa, its an easy choice to make. If its the FA Cup its a bit harder.

Maybe Im wrong, maybe we can still attract top tier players even if we arent offering CL football - especially if we have the right manager. Im sure players will see us as a team that has a good chance of bouncing back at some stage, so it should be possible to convince them it will only be one season out of the CL.

I do dislike the fact that coming 4th has been elevated to a greater status than winning a domestic cup, but it seems to me that is modern football: the CL is where players want to be and if a club isnt in it, it wont have the same pulling power. I think that is an issue for us, we may not have a long shopping list but its quite important we are successful with the short one we do have.

 

[adexkola]

I don't think there is any concrete evidence players want to play in the CL and would reject us if we didn't make the competition. Maybe for true contenders like Bayern and Barca, sure. And in that case, we werent going to get them anyways. But players aren't fighting to go to *looks up random club* Gent FC because they are in the CL round of 16. Players want to win the CL, they don't have a hard-on for the music before the game and an easy exit.

 

[Adebesi]

I don't think there is any concrete evidence players want to play in the CL and would reject us if we didn't make the competition. Maybe for true contenders like Bayern and Barca, sure. And in that case, we werent going to get them anyways. But players aren't fighting to go to *looks up random club* Gent FC because they are in the CL round of 16. Players want to win the CL, they don't have a hard-on for the music before the game and an easy exit.

Of course, it isnt like the CL is the only factor. So a player would rather play for Ghent than United because Ghent might be in the CL and United are not. That would be ridiculous. There are other factors. Money is a big one, as is the opportunity to win things, and the more prestigious the better. The Belgian league isnt that prestigious and Ghent presumably cant pay their players much, so they are low on the list, with or without the CL. But there are plenty of clubs that can offer all 3 of those things, and anything else players may want. Obviously players are just people and each person has his own motivations and priorities, so it isnt clear cut. But i do think (without any real evidence, admittedly) that being in the CL is a fairly significant factor for a lot of players and if the money and other things are equal they will pick the CL club. So not being in it is a disadvantage when trying to get the kind of player that would fancy himself as someone who should be winning CLs - which is the kind of player we need to be going after.