Individual Brilliance vs Pattern of play

Berbasbullet

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The only time he had top scoring teams was when he had the best teams in those respective leagues iirc. His first stint at Chelsea and Madrid?
Couldn’t you argue that was partly down to his management, etc?
 

Dec9003

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I’ve worked in football previously, been around training grounds and coaches etc. The only place I’ve ever heard pattern of play mentioned is on here, I’m not sure who started it but it’s really funny reading which managers are good and bad because of something I’ve never heard professionals speak about/implement in training.
 

Mainoldo

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I’d be impressed if you’ve watched Fulham and Brighton more than once this season. I especially enjoy the way you are nominating sides that haven’t been able to hit a cow’s arse with a banjo for over a year, as well as teams we have recently blown away to the tune of about twenty goals.

Patterns of play are obviously brilliant, mind you. Such patterns.
Like we can have a conversation or we can just measure United's di*k and not have a conversation about it.

I watch more football than you.. clearly.. otherwise you wouldn't question how much times i've watch Fulham and Brighton play.
 

Halftrack

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They use their eyes.

The team presses high during sections of most games and looks to dominate the ball in most matches. This is clearly under instruction. When the team wins the ball back, it breaks at pace and midfielders aim to get the ball into the space between the full backs and defenders. This is how Rashford, and particularly Bruno when he makes runs beyond the striker, get into so many goal scoring positions. Shaw, Rashford and Bruno have great working relationships, as do Fred and McTominay.

The quality of the goals we score has improved significantly under Ole and this is because movement has improved and emphasis has been put on scoring goals. This is with attacking players who still aren’t quite up to it as a collective.

Begs the question what you’re watching, frankly.
That's the thing, though. Anything that Bruno does, and the good things Rashford do, are just chalked up to individual brilliance. Probably goes for Shaw as well, now that he's looking proper quality. They don't do these things because it's what's asked of them, they do this because Ole doesn't know how to coach and they just have the ability to make things happen in spite of him. And should you ever manage to outmaneuver them, a lot of them will just fall back on "the eye test" or how our "counter attacking" style isn't befitting of a team of our stature.
 

Borys

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We have consistent patterns as individuals. We don't have consistent patterns of teamwork and i don't see how anyone thinks we do.

Cavani coming in has started to develop some because a target man will always do that. Beyond that we barely have movement never mind players knowing the runs others will make.
I'd agree with one comment. We have those moments when football looks fluid, players make themselves available for the pass, we move the ball quickly and drag defenders out of position. This happened in the last game when James scored and Newcastle were tired after running like mad dogs for 60'. But in the first half we looked completely out of depth, playing triangles on the left side just for kicks I guess, because it didn't seem to cause Newcastle any troubles. Too slow, too predictable.

Best example I can remember was Leicester game. We were dogshit until the first goal, and then we looked completely transformed.
I think it's a case of us being very direct, especially whenever Bruno is in "only forward" mode. But I agree, in general we look heavy reliant on individual brilliance rather than using consistent patterns of play. Consistent being keyword, because I don't think 2-3 counter attacks can be called "consistent", because you can't realy on that to win games regularly.
 

Trequarista10

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Tbf, some of us are maybe too harsh towards Ole. We have both because stay back and wait for counter attacks where two players will do something IS pattern of play.
Correct. We have patterns of play, it's just not the possession obsessions patterns people want. This may be partly down to tactics but it's also down to the players we have. Rashford and Bruno will never be tiki taka players, are they direct and explosive risk takers. Greenwood too. Martial would maybe be better suited to a possession based strategy.
 

RUCK4444

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So what is our pattern of play?
Attacking. Fluid front three, Bruno the no 10 pulling the strings and pressing (yes we press, not as good as some teams but were getting better at it), and excellent counterattacks.

Also unlike most will tell you all of our goals are not solely scored from counterattacks, a fair amount are and there is no shame in that, a team that transitions well and effectively after winning possession is a well drilled team.
Ironically counterattacking goals are often the most exciting/entertaining.

Honestly it’s like many here don’t watch the games enough to see how we set up.
 

Mainoldo

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The only time he had top scoring teams was when he had the best teams in those respective leagues iirc. His first stint at Chelsea and Madrid?
So was it the players or did he not coach attacking good football?
 

Flexdegea

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I bet if you Google searched the terms it was rival fans who invented it to stick it in to the manager.



Reminds me of literally all the times Ferguson was cleaning up, was always because we were a one man team, and every year one or another player went it moved to another player and individual brilliance.

Was basically how our last title win was explained with RvP, was never the fact we where a good side with winners across the side and where hard to beat, was individual brillance.



Top scorers in league because of the players brillance even when a good chunk of the forwards aren't firing yet, and their is obvious flaws in the team.


Must be the luckiest manager about Ole
 

R'hllor

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Will avoid this baiting type of threads, not the first one aswell but will say this, one thing in final third that grinds my gear are our cut backs, its like they doing it blind folded, Jesus take the wheel style.
 

bsCallout

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I'm convinced these people that talk about patterns of play don't actually watch other teams. Then watch the goal highlights and think 'ahhh there is their pattern of play at work, majestic'.

It's a load of rubbish.

The only pattern of play I notice is our pattern of gifting teams ridiculously easy goals.
 

RUCK4444

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So was it the players or did he not coach attacking good football?
Peak Mourinho’s teams were good going forward and he deserves the praise he got for those teams.

They were clearly the strongest sides in their leagues though (which we certainly aren’t and our forwards have been poor this season.)

All the more reason to believe we have patterns of play which enables us to be the top scorers in the league with out of form forwards by spreading the goal burden across multiple players (another thing that wouldn’t happen without cohesive attacking coaching and patterns of play.)
 

Flexdegea

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They use their eyes.

The team presses high during sections of most games and looks to dominate the ball in most matches. This is clearly under instruction. When the team wins the ball back, it breaks at pace and midfielders aim to get the ball into the space between the full backs and defenders. This is how Rashford, and particularly Bruno when he makes runs beyond the striker, get into so many goal scoring positions. Shaw, Rashford and Bruno have great working relationships, as do Fred and McTominay.

The quality of the goals we score has improved significantly under Ole and this is because movement has improved and emphasis has been put on scoring goals. This is with attacking players who still aren’t quite up to it as a collective.

Begs the question what you’re watching, frankly.

This is how I see it.


So obvious but folk pretend we just booting it about no ideas. Every game different sometimes the counter lethal sometimes it playing into a brick wall. We tend to break teams down more times than not.


I'm not sure what some people are seeing sometimes. If anything we seem to be able to play a few different ways
 

Ali Dia

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Patterns of play = finally finding the right players to fully realise the managers style while winning.

Do we have a squad on paper that should be beating everyone? We don’t and it doesn’t matter how much we’ve spent, we still don’t. You can see how big a difference one player can make when Bruno came in and it totally changed our style (which is playing to the best players strengths) We still arguably have about 4 first team spots up for grabs. How are we meant to play breathtaking football with a team still clearly in transition? He’s keeping us in it while he builds a better team. No more and no less
 
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Zlatan 7

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Yeah I wouldn't expect you too.. Which is why his football is acceptable.
I can only imagine your reaction if we played as naive as some of those teams. Each to their own I suppose. I’m quite enjoying the way we’re playing a lot of the time, even though there’s obviously areas of improvement.

I’d say Liverpool’s style is press like mad from the top to force turnovers high up the field and then rely on the individual brilliance of mane or salah to get a goal from a mistake. The other is for a full back to hit a long diagonal to the forward to chase or win a second ball off, then, again rely on the individual brilliance of mane and salah to find each other and get a goal. It worked well for two years but it looks a busted flush now. I don’t enjoy that football.

We don’t press that high but then when we do press and turn the ball over there’s space in behind to exploit, we transition quickly and you can’t deny we’ve exploited it with the amount of goals we’ve scored. it’s a style, just one you don’t like.
 

Kag

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Like we can have a conversation or we can just measure United's di*k and not have a conversation about it.

I watch more football than you.. clearly.. otherwise you wouldn't question how much times i've watch Fulham and Brighton play.
I’m sure that you do. Rather startling that it hasn’t really improved upon your ability to understand it.
 

Halftrack

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Me: "I like the way Fulham play football"

Nobody: "I bet you haven't even watched them"

Me: "No I just thought it would sound good"
I was referring to your deductive reasoning. You clearly watch more football than him, which is evident by the fact that he doubted how much you've watched Fulham. The latter can not be deduced from the former.
 

RUCK4444

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Couldn’t you argue that was partly down to his management, etc?
Absolutely, I elaborated in another post whilst replying to mainaldo

I was just pointing out they were great teams and the strongest in their leagues, in contrast we aren’t and our forwards are out of form. All the more reason to appreciate we have patterns of play and are coached well enough in an attacking sense as we are top scorers.
 

Kag

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That's the thing, though. Anything that Bruno does, and the good things Rashford do, are just chalked up to individual brilliance. Probably goes for Shaw as well, now that he's looking proper quality. They don't do these things because it's what's asked of them, they do this because Ole doesn't know how to coach and they just have the ability to make things happen in spite of him. And should you ever manage to outmaneuver them, a lot of them will just fall back on "the eye test" or how our "counter attacking" style isn't befitting of a team of our stature.
Indeed. And then we get into the ludicrous ball game in which we pretend it wasn’t actually Ole who was in charge when Bruno was sanctioned and that it isn’t him who has clearly given him the freedom to reign supreme in the United midfield. The fact is that, whatever way you spin it, Ole is directly responsible for making positive decisions that has led to this ‘individual brilliance’.
 

Berbasbullet

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Absolutely, I elaborated in another post whilst replying to mainaldo

I was just pointing out they were great teams and the strongest in their leagues, in contrast we aren’t and our forwards are out of form. All the more reason to appreciate we have patterns of play and are coached well enough in an attacking sense as we are top scorers.
Fair enough, I agree.

Also, can we all take a vow that this won’t become one of those threads that gets bumped to gloat in every time we win/lose? :lol:
 

Mainoldo

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I can only imagine your reaction if we played as naive as some of those teams. Each to their own I suppose. I’m quite enjoying the way we’re playing a lot of the time, even though there’s obviously areas of improvement.

I’d say Liverpool’s style is press like mad from the top to force turnovers high up the field and then rely on the individual brilliance of mane or salah to get a goal from a mistake. The other is for a full back to hit a long diagonal to the forward to chase or win a second ball off, then, again rely on the individual brilliance of mane and salah to find each other and get a goal. It worked well for two years but it looks a busted flush now. I don’t enjoy that football.

We don’t press that high but then when we do press and turn the ball over there’s space in behind to exploit, we transition quickly and you can’t deny we’ve exploited it with the amount of goals we’ve scored. it’s a style, just one you don’t like.
That's fair enough and i'm not disagreeing with what you say.

But I can't pretend we are a well coached side no matter what odd piece of consistent pattern I can see. Like Bruno pressing the defence on his own.

The best we have been coached is under LVG. It wasn't the best football to watch but it was a well coached side. This is not a very well coached side but i'm not surprised. Our coaching staff consist of a u18's manager, Michael Carrick and a keeping coach from Molde.

I can probably comfortably say our opposition don't have a back room staff as inexperienced as ours.
 

Mainoldo

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Peak Mourinho’s teams were good going forward and he deserves the praise he got for those teams.

They were clearly the strongest sides in their leagues though (which we certainly aren’t and our forwards have been poor this season.)

All the more reason to believe we have patterns of play which enables us to be the top scorers in the league with out of form forwards by spreading the goal burden across multiple players (another thing that wouldn’t happen without cohesive attacking coaching and patterns of play.)
Suppose you'll have to ask Chelsea fans. Abramovich was known to not like his football which was another reason to why he sacked him.
 

LovelyLittlePanda

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Great thread, this needs to be addressed.

I think the complaint that we lack "patterns of play" arises from us struggling to break down teams that park the bus and a brilliancy from Bruno or Rashford saving our asses.

The only team I can think of that could've had this mythical "pattern of play" is peak Barca (not the Suarez one but the Xavi one). But even that one wasn't all tiki-taka. It had plenty of players capable of brilliant through balls, dribbles, etc.

People seem to think you can destroy bus parkers at the highest level without individual brilliance from a key creative player. You can't. Some teams just have an easier time because they have more than 1 or 2 players of that quality.

The reason we hear more complaints on the caf about this "pattern of play" bullocks rather than us conceding 10+ goals in a season through set pieces (yes, we're heading there), is because fans find it boring to watch 89 minutes of us not being able to score against Wolves. Fine, don't watch. I won't think less of you as a fan, just stop pretending it's our (and Ole's) biggest problem.
 

Mainoldo

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I’m sure that you do. Rather startling that it hasn’t really improved upon your ability to understand it.
It's all subjective I suppose. You ever looked back on your opinion and been like I was right about that?
 

adexkola

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It's getting out of control now. Ole haters are getting annoying with these "pattern of play" term.

In which part of football history, a team without individual brilliance bring success to the club?

What is this nonsense?

Elaborate, and fight.
Disclaimer: not an Ole hater.

You need both. If you have players who are capable of individual brilliance in certain situations, you craft a system that gets the best out of them, puts them in that situation as much as possible, and enables them to work their magic.
 
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Jeppers7

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Anyone who watches us struggle to win almost every game we play, given we have better players than all but about three other clubs, and thinks we are as good as we could be is massively deluded. Game on game we struggle through. We aren’t very good in terms of putting teams away, we struggle through most games and scrape a win. Call it what you like, hide behind the league position....to win trophies we will need to be a lot better.
 

Mainoldo

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Great thread, this needs to be addressed.

I think the complaint that we lack "patterns of play" arises from us struggling to break down teams that park the bus and a brilliancy from Bruno or Rashford saving our asses.

The only team I can think of that could've had this mythical "pattern of play" is peak Barca (not the Suarez one but the Xavi one). But even that one wasn't all tiki-taka. It had plenty of players capable of brilliant through balls, dribbles, etc.

People seem to think you can destroy bus parkers at the highest level without individual brilliance from a key creative player. You can't. Some teams just have an easier time because they have more than 1 or 2 players of that quality.

The reason we hear more complaints on the caf about this "pattern of play" bullocks rather than us conceding 10+ goals in a season through set pieces (yes, we're heading there), is because fans find it boring to watch 89 minutes of us not being able to score against Wolves. Fine, don't watch. I won't think less of you as a fan, just stop pretending it's our (and Ole's) biggest problem.
It's the same thing and points out the same problem. :lol:
 

meamth

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Control, pass, move. We rarely do that. The first goal we scored against Newcastle. We moved without any aim until it got to Rashford. Then he beat his man and scored at the near post. That's individual brilliant play.
Yesterday Brighton against Palace was how pattern of play or teamwork. Yes they lost because they didn't have anyone with quality to put the ball in the net. They lost.
With United everyone knows it's going to be a counter attack and it's going to come from the wings or full backs, which means from the flanks normally.
Dion Dublin was saying that SAF never coached later at United. He was always aware of what is going on and decides the team etc but he let the coaches do it. He also said they were top class coaches.
I would say in that aspect Ole is very good in man management. Where I have issues is with his coaching staff.
This what irks me.

What about the dribble and pass from Maguire? Isn't that part of the play?

Same as the goal he scored against Sociedad, Fred splitting pass to Rashy.

Thing is, how many wonder goals Salah scored last season in this "Heavily drilled, beautiful pattern of play" Liverpool?

Individual brilliance is why big clubs win trophies, not Leeds United with coffee squatter Bielsa.
 

MattofManchester

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I don't like the term "individual brilliance".

I think there are games where we just overwhelm opposition based on how much quality we have over them.

Newcastle felt like that sort of game. We were almost playing with 10 given how nonexistent Martial was and yet they still couldn't stop the quality we have going forward.

Games like Fulham and Newcastle have felt like that.

Games like West Brom, Sheffield, Burnley(despite winning) are examples where that's not really acting as enough impetus for us to control the game(possession does not mean control).

We hardly ever seem in full control of games that we have to dominate. Opposition no matter how bad always seems to get a chance.

I think the frustration with "patterns of play" is that for two years we've struggled to break down teams in the bottom half of the league. Bruno was supposed to solve that problem and he hasn't.
It's been long enough now that it should be considered a problem.
We always tend to look slow and predictable against these teams.

If I weigh in, I wouldn't call it patterns of play as much as a lack of movement. We tend to be very static unless running in behind and it hurts us against tight defenses. In these cases, our players struggle to break apart opposition defence, and instead try to bulldoze through them, which rarely works.
 
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I watched Brighton yesterday and they absolutely battered Palace. I have not really seen us do something like that against 11 men, I'm sorry, but Brighton plays better football than us, with worse players and a smaller budget. How? Because they have a clear idea about what they want to do. I do think that Ole has an idea, but in that case, he can't implement it or reach out to the players. I have nothing against Ole, I just don't think he gives us patterns, a clear idea, and good football. I hope he does someday, but if he hasn't managed it thus far, he probably won't do it in the future either. It doesn't take that long to do it. He was hired before Potter and Rodgers and both of them have managed to give their team a clear identity in less time with fewer resources, and therefore I think this 'rebuild' is just an excuse.
 

Amarsdd

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I’ve worked in football previously, been around training grounds and coaches etc. The only place I’ve ever heard pattern of play mentioned is on here, I’m not sure who started it but it’s really funny reading which managers are good and bad because of something I’ve never heard professionals speak about/implement in training.
Yeah, but caftards are better managers and coaches than anyone you have worked with within professional football.
 

Borys

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Great thread, this needs to be addressed.

I think the complaint that we lack "patterns of play" arises from us struggling to break down teams that park the bus and a brilliancy from Bruno or Rashford saving our asses.

The only team I can think of that could've had this mythical "pattern of play" is peak Barca (not the Suarez one but the Xavi one). But even that one wasn't all tiki-taka. It had plenty of players capable of brilliant through balls, dribbles, etc.

People seem to think you can destroy bus parkers at the highest level without individual brilliance from a key creative player. You can't. Some teams just have an easier time because they have more than 1 or 2 players of that quality.

The reason we hear more complaints on the caf about this "pattern of play" bullocks rather than us conceding 10+ goals in a season through set pieces (yes, we're heading there), is because fans find it boring to watch 89 minutes of us not being able to score against Wolves. Fine, don't watch. I won't think less of you as a fan, just stop pretending it's our (and Ole's) biggest problem.
I don't think anyone is saying that. However, we seem to struggle against top sides this season. Coincidentally, Bruno doesn't perform well against those teams. This is the limitation of relying on individual brilliance imo. Bruno has not been himself the past few weeks as well.

It's easy to say "we need better players" (common thing on here). But I'd say this team has much more potential even with current personnel. The coaching / patterns of play / whatever we call it needs to be improved. This is the number two on the list of priorities if we want to go up a level, after the goalkeeper position.
 

Hammondo

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Yeah, this makes no sense whatsoever.
Don't you understand? If you watched more football than him you would know his every experience with football. The gods of football transfer that knowledge to you as a sign of dominance.
 

LovelyLittlePanda

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It's the same thing and points out the same problem. :lol:
Disagree.
IIRC, the pattern of play arguments I've read on here often criticise us when we are in possession (and thus have no bearing on our set piece defending)

If you're implying both our set piece defending and inability to break down teams are down to shit coaching (and therefore a shit manager), you might as well have said "Ole out!" instead of using a green smiley.

I'm of the opinion that having one solid defender who's not a leader with a pussy next to him and pussy behind him in goal is at least half our set piece problem.
 

Dec9003

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Yeah, but caftards are better managers and coaches than anyone you have worked with within professional football.
True! I'd love to see a Caf managed team. :lol:
 

Mainoldo

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Disagree.
IIRC, the pattern of play arguments I've read on here often criticise us when we are in possession (and thus have no bearing on our set piece defending)

If you're implying both our set piece defending and inability to break down teams are down to shit coaching (and therefore a shit manager), you might as well have said "Ole out!" instead of using a green smiley.

I'm of the opinion that having one solid defender who's not a leader with a pussy next to him and pussy behind him in goal is at least half our set piece problem.
So why did we concede less set pieces without the Solid defender. It's always tactical. It's why teams with better defence than us in the league are doing it with sh&tter players.