Is a 30-year old high profile player too old to be worth the outlay in the PL?

[ShoePolish]

Same old. Will have people putting up some age related stats trying to convince themselves it's a game changing signing, but in reality, it's just another Matic type stop gap coming into demotivated team, that's gonna rub off rest of the failure accepting teammates, and become the butt of the jokes in a few months. On top of that, he's pretty much finishing his career here, regardless of his performance levels, if we're really giving the reported paycheck.
The team needs a mental reset, we tried already plugging gaps with established names in Falcao, AdM window, and it failed.

 

[TheReligion]

I think the point is that lots of players would make the team better, ones who will be around for longer. It's a continuation of the awful, short-sighted transfer strategy that landed us in this situation in the first place. It's not necessarily about Casemiro as a player.

That’s fine but the point is Casemiro massively upgrades on Mctominay (or Fred).

Is there a better upgrade in terms of a holding midfielder currently?

As fans we want it all and now. We want a cheap, young, world class player who loves United and will play for free. Never leave or agitate to do so. Infact some want 11 players like that.

 

[TheReligion]

Same old. Will have people putting up some age related stats trying to convince themselves it's a game changing signing, but in reality, it's just another Matic type stop gap coming into demotivated team, that's gonna rub off rest of the failure accepting teammates, and become the butt of the jokes in a few months. On top of that, he's pretty much finishing his career here, regardless of his performance levels, if we're really giving the reported paycheck.
The team needs a mental reset, we tried already plugging gaps with established names in Falcao, AdM window, and it failed.

So the reported pay check has been debunked.

The age has been discussed to death and plenty of comparisons made to other DMs and their levels of performance at 30 and beyond.

Same old as you say

 

[SuperiorXI]

Some players can go to late 30s, it depends on their body/fitness. Look at Giggs, was still outpacing Real Madrid players at 39. Modric doesn't look like slowing down. Fernandinho, arguably the best DM in the league for the best team played until 37.

 

[ShoePolish]

So the reported pay check has been debunked.

The age has been discussed to death and plenty of comparisons made to other DMs and their levels of performance at 30 and beyond.

Same old as you say

Skimmed the thread, not reading every reply, but mostly seen comparisons to KdB, Modric, Fernandinho et. al., which would be fine, if we're just comparing players on a personal level, but you have to look at the teams they're playing/played at too.
Happy to be proven wrong, but this is just panic signing from the board, who put all of their eggs in Frenkie basket, and have now relalised it's not happening.

 

[Zen86]

That’s fine but the point is Casemiro massively upgrades on Mctominay (or Fred).

Is there a better upgrade in terms of a holding midfielder currently?

As fans we want it all and now. We want a cheap, young, world class player who loves United and will play for free. Never leave or agitate to do so. Infact some want 11 players like that.

He's an upgrade, but a lot of other, younger players would be as well. He might take us up a couple of league places for a few years, but then we're back in the same situation again. It's the same old story and we're starting to look like a bit of a retirement ground for players in the twilight of their career.

The kickback from fans is just a manifestation of anger about the wider issue; after all this talk of building for the future, putting us on the right track, implementing "progressive" policies.. after all that we've effectively chased our own tails throughout the summer and ended up with a 30 year old surplus to requirements at Real Madrid. If we'd had a better summer and this guy was the icing on the cake nobody would be complaining, but it's been pretty tragic.

 

[Kag]

Not when McTominay plays every week. Negativity surrounding this comes from a reasonable starting place, but it’s mental to think that this signing is anything other than bloody necessary. He’s 30, not dead.

 

[villain]

I think a lot of our fans need to realise that right now, in order for us to get back to the top, we're going to have to overpay the odds to attract people to come here.
Football is a competitive sport and depending on the player you may spend 10 of those years at the highest level, and only a handful of years competing for the best trophies.
Therefore its a big risk to invest potentially 4/5 years or 30-40% of your peak at a club and have no trophies or accolades to show for it.

Similar to City paying over the odds for the likes of Robinho, Adebayor, Roque Santa Cruz, Nasri etc 10-13 years ago - we're gonna waste a lot more than we recoup until we begin to uncover the players who can become a Kompany, Silva, Toure, Aguero, Walker etc.

 

[TheReligion]

He's an upgrade, but a lot of other, younger players would be as well. He might take us up a couple of league places for a few years, but then we're back in the same situation again. It's the same old story and we're starting to look like a bit of a retirement ground for players in the twilight of their career.

The kickback from fans is just a manifestation of anger about the wider issue; after all this talk of building for the future, putting us on the right track, implementing "progressive" policies.. after all that we've effectively chased our own tails throughout the summer and ended up with a 30 year old surplus to requirements at Real Madrid. If we'd had a better summer and this guy was the icing on the cake nobody would be complaining, but it's been pretty tragic.

1) He’s not surplus to requirements. The club want to keep him and the fans love the player. He literally helped win them the CL a few months ago and dominated the midfield battle v Liverpool

2) We need players for the future and players for the here and now. Attracting players without CL football is difficult.

3) Signing him for the next 3/4 years but in between picking up the right blend of younger players is exactly what we should be doing. It’s about balance. That’s why Chelsea (Caf darlings) picked up Silva at 36 and just dropped close to £40m on the 31 year old Koulibaly.

 

[Zen86]

1) He’s not surplus to requirements. The club want to keep him and the fans love the player. He literally helped win them the CL a few months ago and dominated the midfield battle v Liverpool

2) We need players for the future and players for the here and now. Attracting players without CL football is difficult.

3) Signing him for the next 3/4 years but in between picking up the right blend of younger players is exactly what we should be doing. It’s about balance. That’s why Chelsea (Caf darlings) picked up Silva at 36 and just dropped close to £40m on the 31 year old Koulibaly.

1) They've got a few options in his position. If they really wanted to keep him, he wouldn't be coming here. Let's not kid ourselves that United are too good a proposition to turn down.

2) We're not doing a very good job of that, hence the frustration. Attracting established stars without CL football is difficult, which is exactly why we should spend less time chasing established stars like FdJ and focusing more on players with hunger, wanting to take a step up. It's not like many in our squad are hard to replace, or improve on.

3) Nobody has any confidence in that happening, given our track record.


Either way, as I said in my last post, if the summer hadn't been so tragic nobody would complain about signing Casemiro. It's not about signing him, rather the conditions and the manner of it.

 

[RatPack]

All signings are a chance.

Player might not be suited to the PL, Players may become injury prone etc.

People saying 30 is too old does not make sense to me. Seems more and more players are at their best in their 30's. And the idea of signing for the future is good but if the future after 5 years is not with us what is the point. New players come on a contract whether they are 21 or 30 they can leave when the contract runs out. And seems all young player around starts at amounts above 30-40 mill even though they are not yet fully developed for the PL.

In the case of Casemiro we will potentially get a player who will be at the top of his game for another 3-4 years and could be vital to get in other great players if he can improve us + hopefully he will be able to help improve the player to replace him in 4-5 years.

I agree that we should not sign a player if he comes only for the money. But in the case of Casemiro I think there are more reasons. He has something to prove after Real purchased his replacement this summer in Tchouameni.

If this deal goes through and he hits the ground running this could be our best buy since Ferguson. But yes he could also end up like the rest of the "stars" we have purchased.

 

[TheReligion]

1) They've got a few options in his position. If they really wanted to keep him, he wouldn't be coming here. Let's not kid ourselves that United are too good a proposition to turn down.

If you read the reliable reports they don’t want to sell him. They also won’t get in his way if he wants to leave and respect him for what he’s given the club. Much like City, Real don’t block these things.

2) We're not doing a very good job of that, hence the frustration. Attracting established stars without CL football is difficult, which is exactly why we should spend less time chasing established stars like FdJ and focusing more on players with hunger, wanting to take a step up. It's not like many in our squad are hard to replace, or improve on.

And this is why signing Casemiro is such a coup?

3) Nobody has any confidence in that happening, given our track record.

Yep I get that but that’s no reason for people to be overly negative about every single thing.



Either way, as I said in my last post, if the summer hadn't been so tragic nobody would complain about signing Casemiro. It's not about signing him, rather the conditions and the manner of it.

 

[sullydnl]

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[Iker Quesadillas]

30 is an arbitrary age. Liverpool signed Thiago and he was 29 years old.

 

[Eurotrash]

In the case of Casemiro, I am all for it. We need him right now. We also need younger talent of course, but we need Casemiro to show them how to play football.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

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To add more to this, this insight seems to me like it is confusing processes with purposes.

The purpose is to have a solid squad. When you have proven players (30 yrs or thereabouts), that gives you a platform to buy younger ones, to add to the core.
When Guardiola took over City, they had lots of 30+ players: Toure, Sagna, Bravo, Zabaleta, Fernandinho, Clichy, Kompany, Navas, Silva, Kolarov... plus Aguero, Fernando, and Otamendi were 29. 4 seasons later, they had Fernandinho, Aguero, Otamendi, Walker, Gundogan, De Bruyne, Mahrez all over 30.

Manchester United don't have that platform. The only over 30 players you have are Ronaldo (will leave soon), De Gea (should leave soon too), Eriksen (just signed), and Jones (hardly even counts). The only 29 players are Varane, Maguire, and Fred. There's no core there whatsoever. Is it risky to buy older players? Of course. But it's also incredibly risky to buy a bunch of young players and wait and see what happens in 4 years. A club of United's standing shouldn't be doing anything like that, you can certainly afford not to.

 

[Rnd898]

One thing worth noting about Casemiro is that his injury record is spectacular and he's very rarely missed games through injuries. He also didn't start playing regular minutes in a top league till he was about 22-23 so should be plenty of gas left in his tank. Whether he'll settle moving into another league/country and fit in with your squad and Ten Hag's tactics is another matter entirely but that's basically the risk one has to take with signing any player no matter their age. I personally think he'll be a great signing for you and just what the doctor ordered.

As for the topic's question about signing +30yo players in general, like many others have said there's no single rule that applies to all players and every player has to be looked at individually. Amount of games played in the career, the injury history, the player's style of play and their level of professionalism (fitness levels etc.) all matter.
Some players just decline earlier and by 30-31 they might be totally finished but then again for others age is nothing but a number.

Players like Schweinsteiger and Rooney from your lot fit the first category to a tee, both had played lots of top level football from about age 16-17 so by age 30 they simply had too much mileage on their legs to still play at their best level. Then there have also been players whose careers were mostly wrecked by injury problems as well as lots of players who simply didn't take good enough care of their bodies and liked to party instead of trying to lead a professional lifestyle to prolong their peak levels (ie. Ronaldinho) and were also done playing top level football reasonably early.

The likes of Thiago Silva, Zlatan Ibrahimovic and Cristiano Ronaldo are obviously freaks of nature who've kept their performance levels high even into their late 30s and while those are the exceptions, lots of players both in the EPL and other top leagues still play at the top of their game well into ages 33-35 without many signs of slowing down. Many top players are even able to adapt their game to a slightly different role when it starts looking like their legs are about to give in and find new ways to contribute in their later years.

Be interesting to see how our respective +30yo signings (Koulibaly and Casemiro) do both this season and the seasons to come. Both players who've long been considered some of the best in the world at their positions and who then make the move from the Mediterranean leagues to the EPL for big money at 30-31. Still early days but based on the first two games Koulibaly at least looks a top signing.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

One thing worth noting about Casemiro is that his injury record is spectacular and he's very rarely missed games through injuries.

now I’m worried

 

[Lowkey]

In the case of Casemiro, I am all for it. We need him right now. We also need younger talent of course, but we need Casemiro to show them how to play football.

well hes not the most technical so we dont need him to show them how to play football.

We need him for his warrior/never say die/i will win at all costs attitude to rub off on our loser team.

I mean if only we had a decent goalkeeper our spine would look pretty good with new GK, Varane, Casemiro, inset de jong here, Ronaldo.

Now we just need the manager to drop the flops like maguire and we should see better results on the pitch

 

[Gavinb33]

Claude Makelele was 30 when he signed for Chelsea

 

[justsomebloke]

Yes, generated because of the Casemiro thread where some are turning their noses up at him purely due to his age, but it’s a long-standing theme on the caf in and of itself that 30-years old is ancient and a big risk to take on a footballer In the PL.

Is that correct? Would you not want your club to sign an elite player who was 30-years old?

Yes and no. We were supposed to have moved away from signing expensive players above a certain age, which I think is the right approach when you're trying to build up the core of a contender. And if we end up spending 60m on a 30-year-old and sign him for 4-5 seasons on a huge salary, this obviously says nothing good about our recruitment work.

What says something even worse about our recruitment work is that at this stage, it's almost certainly the right move. Because there is no doubt that it would very seriously address our most glaring need, in a situation where we urgently need to avoid a complete meltdown.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

To add more to this, this insight seems to me like it is confusing processes with purposes.

The purpose is to have a solid squad. When you have proven players (30 yrs or thereabouts), that gives you a platform to buy younger ones, to add to the core.
When Guardiola took over City, they had lots of 30+ players: Toure, Sagna, Bravo, Zabaleta, Fernandinho, Clichy, Kompany, Navas, Silva, Kolarov... plus Aguero, Fernando, and Otamendi were 29. 4 seasons later, they had Fernandinho, Aguero, Otamendi, Walker, Gundogan, De Bruyne, Mahrez all over 30.

Manchester United don't have that platform. The only over 30 players you have are Ronaldo (will leave soon), De Gea (should leave soon too), Eriksen (just signed), and Jones (hardly even counts). The only 29 players are Varane, Maguire, and Fred. There's no core there whatsoever. Is it risky to buy older players? Of course. But it's also incredibly risky to buy a bunch of young players and wait and see what happens in 4 years. A club of United's standing shouldn't be doing anything like that, you can certainly afford not to.

This is a very good point.

 

[overdunne]

Depends

If he’s wearing them or not?

 

[The White Pele]

If he’s the final piece in the jigsaw then it’s fine.

Ideally a director of football should be ensuring that we have a squad that has 2 players of a certain level for each position, so that we are not exposed in any area and find ourselves needing to constantly knee-jerk in the transfer market.

Unfortunately that’s not the case at United so when we assess an expensive outlay on a 30 year old player we have to do so in the context of us being left short at right-back, goalkeeper, centre midfield, right wing and striker.

With that context it is a problem.

 

[Bluelion7]

The obvious answer here is that it entirely depends on the player, their injury history, and how much aging effects what they bring to a team.

At 33, I worry about signing a player who previously depended so much on pace for game in Aubamayang.

Busquets will be just as terminally slow at 37 as he was at 27, and he will still be effective.

If you had told me the Silva signing would be as good for us as it has been, I would have thought you crazy.

Casemiro at just 30? Nobody would have bat an eyelash if he had stayed the starter in one of the best midfields in the world this coming season. So what if he’s not a 10 year starter? If he can get you to he point where you are buying your next ten year starter from a CL position over the next 2 to 3 years, then he is worth every penny. And it wouldn’t shock me in any way if he were still a valued member and mentor of a much improved United squad at 35.

 

[TheReligion]

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Neglects to mention Chelsea signing Silva at 36, Koulibaly at 31 and chasing 33 year old Auba…

 

[sullydnl]

Neglects to mention Chelsea signing Silva at 36, Koulibaly at 31 and chasing 33 year old Auba…

True. Though tbf Silva was a free transfer and we haven't seen how the other two will actually work out. I thought Chelsea paying that much for Koulibaly was a pretty bad idea as well.

 

[do.ob]

I agree that we should not sign a player if he comes only for the money. But in the case of Casemiro I think there are more reasons. He has something to prove after Real purchased his replacement this summer in Tchouameni.

I think most people would see staying and fighting for his spot or joining another top team as "trying to prove something", whereas signing a fat retirement contract at a club that's currently in the EL and struggling looks more like going for the money?!

 

[Rnd898]

Neglects to mention Chelsea signing Silva at 36, Koulibaly at 31 and chasing 33 year old Auba…

I would imagine if the Aubameyang signing goes through for £20M+ it will raise a lot of eyebrows in the media, and rightly so. Though I somewhat understand why Tuchel wants him, it doesn't represent good value in the slightest and I'm sure there will be journos and fans who will call it out. I have as well, but I just hope I'm wrong.

Silva on the other hand was a free agent signing on relatively modest wages (£110K/wk before tax) so he was a very low risk, high reward kind of thing to begin with. Even so, at the time he signed two years ago I recall seeing many people, both fans and media, being baffled about signing a 36yo to play in the PL for the first time which ended up backfiring on them in the most glorious fashion.

As for Koulibaly the jury is still out. He's been widely regarded a top signing by the media, just like for Casemiro the majority opinion is that he's a massive coup for you lot, but I'm sure if you went looking for tweets from a couple months back you'll find similar opinions from a minority of reporters doubting the Koulibaly signing too. Just because some hack called Daniel Storey (who is he and why should his opinion matter?) failed to mention the Koulibaly signing in a tweet talking about Casemiro doesn't mean there weren't others. And outside the media I remember you in particular being quite vocally critical about the Koulibaly signing as well.

Either way, just let those people talk and hope Casemiro will prove them wrong which I'm pretty sure he will. Opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one but just because said arsehole belongs to a 'journalist' doesn't make it any more valid than a random fan's.

 

[SirReginald]

Neglects to mention Chelsea signing Silva at 36, Koulibaly at 31 and chasing 33 year old Auba…

I agree to an extent of what your getting at but all 3 cost less than Casemiro combined and are on far less money too.

He is a brilliant signing, there’s no argument about that. But that guy is basically highlighting the short term mentality that has ruined your club in the last 10 years. You chased FDJ all summer, finally accepted you couldn’t get him and then took a short flight from Barcelona to Madrid and attempted to throw money at Felix and Casemiro.

What if Casemiro ends up like Matic? Great for 2 seasons. You would then have another dead weight in the squad on a long contract that you would be not be able to move on. It’s a risky transfer from that perspective, no matter how good he is now.

 

[Someone]

Let's first remember that paying big for someone in his 20s doesn't guarantee shit either.

For me it's clear, a lot of players can keep playing well into their 30s, so it depends entirely on the player. Another factor is the average squad age. You don't want to have too many players in their 30s, but if your team lacks experience and maturity, then maybe signing an experienced world class player is just what doctor ordered.

 

[Gavinb33]

I agree to an extent of what your getting at but all 3 cost less than Casemiro combined and are on far less money too.

He is a brilliant signing, there’s no argument about that. But that guy is basically highlighting the short term mentality that has ruined your club in the last 10 years. You chased FDJ all summer, finally accepted you couldn’t get him and then took a short flight from Barcelona to Madrid and attempted to throw money at Felix and Casemiro.

What if Casemiro ends up like Matic? Great for 2 seasons. You would then have another dead weight in the squad on a long contract that you would be not be able to move on. It’s a risky transfer from that perspective, no matter how good he is now.

Yeah they cost less because they aren't as good as Casemiro.

Koulibaly was 41 mill he is already 31 and isn't the best player in his position in the world and doesn't have a 10th of the pedigree that Casemiro has

 

[TheReligion]

I agree to an extent of what your getting at but all 3 cost less than Casemiro combined and are on far less money too.

He is a brilliant signing, there’s no argument about that. But that guy is basically highlighting the short term mentality that has ruined your club in the last 10 years. You chased FDJ all summer, finally accepted you couldn’t get him and then took a short flight from Barcelona to Madrid and attempted to throw money at Felix and Casemiro.

What if Casemiro ends up like Matic? Great for 2 seasons. You would then have another dead weight in the squad on a long contract that you would be not be able to move on. It’s a risky transfer from that perspective, no matter how good he is now.

The combined fees are actually identical with all looking like they will be on the same wage.

Not sure where your numbers are from but they are wrong.

Casemiro is rumoured to be getting 300k and a quick check shows Koulibaly to be on 295k. Auba will almost certainly be on the 300k mark and we must remember 29 year old Drogba picking up 325-350k per week.

 

[Rnd898]

The combined fees are actually identical with all looking like they will be on the same wage.

Not sure where your numbers are from but they are wrong.

Casemiro is rumoured to be getting 300k and a quick check shows Koulibaly to be on 295k. Auba will almost certainly be on the 300k mark and we must remember 29 year old Drogba picking up 325-350k per week.

Agree on the rest but the last bit is just you talking out of your mind.

Drogba was 29-30yo in or around 2007-2008. Back then John Terry was the highest paid player in the history of the EPL with wages of £135K/wk and Drogba didn't even come very close with his £90K salary. To refresh your memory:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2007/jul/28/newsstory.sport1

Drogba signed his next contract a couple years later and even then he didn't make even half of what you're suggesting (was around £150-160K/wk if I remember correctly). N'Golo Kanté was the first Chelsea player to even surpass the £200K/wk mark, though in recent years a few more players have reached around the same £300K mark as Kanté with the likes of Lukaku, Koulibaly, Sterling all getting big deals within the last year or so.

 

[TheReligion]

Agree on the rest but the last bit is just you talking out of your mind.

Drogba was 29-30yo in or around 2007-2008. Back then John Terry was the highest paid player in the history of the EPL with wages of £135K/wk and Drogba didn't even come very close with his £90K salary. To refresh your memory:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2007/jul/28/newsstory.sport1

Drogba signed his next contract a couple years later and even then he didn't make even half of what you're suggesting (was around £150-160K/wk if I remember correctly). N'Golo Kanté was the first Chelsea player to even surpass the £200K/wk mark, though in recent years a few more players have reached around the same £300K mark as Kanté with the likes of Lukaku, Koulibaly, Sterling all getting big deals within the last year or so.

I meant Lukaku

 

[Rnd898]

I meant Lukaku

Fair enough, Lukaku did get somewhere north of £300K a week at age 28 last year. What a terrible deal all-round that was btw.

It seems Boehly and his team are a little less stingy with the salary offers than Marina was. In the Abramovich era only Kanté, Lukaku and intriguingly Werner ever got these sort of massive contracts and everyone else is/was always on £200K/wk at most and even that required being a key player for a good few years in the team before getting their hands on that kind of money (ie. Hazard). Boehly's been in charge for a couple of months and already signed two players near the top end of the wage bill in Sterling and Koulibaly. Whether Aubameyang joins the top earners remains to be seen.

Handing out big salaries is all well and good as long as the players deliver the goods on the pitch but if they don't, there can be problems in getting rid of them like we've already seen with Lukaku (only a loan deal away) and Werner (having to sell at a big loss because of his high salary). And I believe your club have also had similar issues with offloading certain high-paid players.

 

[TheReligion]

Fair enough, Lukaku did get somewhere north of £300K a week at age 28 last year. What a terrible deal all-round that was btw.

It seems Boehly and his team are a little less stingy with the salary offers than Marina was. In the Abramovich era only Kanté, Lukaku and intriguingly Werner ever got these sort of massive contracts and everyone else is/was always on £200K/wk at most and even that required being a key player for a good few years in the team before getting their hands on that kind of money (ie. Hazard). Boehly's been in charge for a couple of months and already signed two players near the top end of the wage bill in Sterling and Koulibaly. Whether Aubameyang joins the top earners remains to be seen.

Handing out big salaries is all well and good as long as the players deliver the goods on the pitch but if they don't, there can be problems in getting rid of them like we've already seen with Lukaku (only a loan deal away) and Werner (having to sell at a big loss because of his high salary). And I believe your club have also had similar issues with offloading certain high-paid players.

Yes we have had issues. It’s been a good summer for us though in terms of reducing the wage bill (Pogba, Cavani, Matic, Lingard, Mata all gone etc). We will also have Ronaldo gone within the next 12 months, possibly sooner.

It is being reported Casemiro is going to have quite an incentivised contract which I think is the best way to go as it helps with motivation. The squad are collectively facing a 20% pay reduction this season from memory due to failing to get top 4.

 

[Nobby style]

This is exactly how you start a proper rebuild. Veteran player in the perfect position who will have a massive influence in righting the rutterless ship

 

[Roux]

Never normally an issue an issue its a Man Utd player!