Is it disloyal if assistant managers wants to become head coaches?

[Gio]

Enrique's situation is different. But in general a competent employer in any business should develop and expect their staff to get promoted internally or externally. That's par for the course of hiring and developing good people.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It goes both ways, as you seem to be ignoring. Sure, Moreno isn't in that position without Enrique stepping down but equally, Enrique doesn't get to come back when he wants to without Moreno being in that position. No other managerial candidate would have agreed to that arrangement.

My God, you'd be the biggest arsehole of a mate in history.

Moreno doesn't get the job without Enrique, and if Moreno wasn't happy with the agreement, why agree to it? I'm ignoring absolutely nothing here, and ultimately Moreno has fecked himself by trying to go back on his agreement the turnip, because now he has no job. That's why he's a cnut, because even the Spanish FA have said "feck off cuntbag, you agreed to this and only got the job because of this".

Can you even imagine what you would do for a mate who's kid died? I mean, can you even understand the gravity of that?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

My God, you'd be the biggest arsehole of a mate in history.

Thanks.

 

[Aretak]

That agreement doesn't happen if Enrique was replaced with anyone else after he stood down. No other manager would accept those terms.

Well, yeah... duh? The entire reason that Moreno was given the job is because Enrique was expected to return and resume his duties. Moreno wouldn't have even been in the running to be in the running for that job otherwise, because he had pretty much zero credentials to be the man for it. The entire reason he was put in charge was so he'd step aside and resume his role as assistant when Enrique returned. He publically stated as much in his press conference when he took the job, so this isn't some conspiracy theory or rumour. It seems he changed his mind, or more likely wasn't expecting Enrique to return so quickly and thought he'd be in the job for a good while, so didn't want to give it up. I can understand why Enrique felt betrayed by him, because he's the entire reason Moreno had the job to begin with, and thought he was leaving it in a trusted friend's hands while he grieved for his daughter.

 

[RedTiger]

Monk really has a chip on his shoulder

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Monk really has a chip on his shoulder

Yup, Monk has no excuse, bizarre behaviour.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Well, yeah... duh? The entire reason that Moreno was given the job is because Enrique was expected to return and resume his duties. Moreno wouldn't have even been in the running to be in the running for that job otherwise, because he had pretty much zero credentials to be the man for it. The entire reason he was put in charge was so he'd step aside and resume his role as assistant when Enrique returned. He publically stated as much in his press conference when he took the job, so this isn't some conspiracy theory or rumour. It seems he changed his mind, or more likely wasn't expecting Enrique to return so quickly and thought he'd be in the job for a good while, so didn't want to give it up. I can understand why Enrique felt betrayed by him, because he's the entire reason Moreno had the job to begin with, and thought he was leaving it in a trusted friend's hands while he grieved for his daughter.

He sacked him, publicly criticized his desire as disloyal and said he doesn't want someone like that on his team, while claiming to understand Moreno's motivation for wanting to see out his contract. This is why I'm saying he's a bit of a cnut. A remarkable lack of tact. Suddenly Luis Enrique is the arbiter of ambition, too. It's really incredible.

 

[Tom Cato]

It goes both ways, as you seem to be ignoring. Sure, Moreno isn't in that position without Enrique stepping down but equally, Enrique doesn't get to come back when he wants to without Moreno being in that position. No other managerial candidate would have agreed to that arrangement.

Moreno had a contract until the end of the Euros, I don't see it as an unreasonable ask to take the team to the tournament and then step down to allow Enrique to return. Enrique's response (sacking him, calling him out as disloyal and claiming he'd never do anything like that) is a bit over the top, hence my assertion that he's being a bit of a cnut, which he evidently agrees with.

I think all of this simply boils down to what kind of human being you want to be. Moreno chose to be the wrong kind of person most of us aspire our children to be. Under the circumstances, the ONLY thing he should have done is say "Welcome back, boss", followed by a hug and some actual real compassion for the loss of his daughter.

Sure, one understands ambition, but this was ambition walking over dead bodies, and its bloody reprehensible.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

I think all of this simply boils down to what kind of human being you want to be. Moreno chose to be the wrong kind of person most of us aspire our children to be. Under the circumstances, the ONLY thing he should have done is say "Welcome back, boss", followed by a hug and some actual real compassion for the loss of his daughter.

Sure, one understands ambition, but this was ambition walking over dead bodies, and its bloody reprehensible.

Allow me to lay this out for you guys on a point by point basis so perhaps you can understand my perspective.

I've no problem with Enrique returning to his role at the time of his choosing as agreed.
I've no problem with Moreno asking Enrique for the chance to lead the team at the Euros. He earned the right to ask that question by taking them through qualification successfully. From what Enrique said, I think he even agrees with this.
I may have a problem if Moreno dug his heels in with the Spanish FA and said "I have a contract, bitches", but I don't know if that's the case.
Where I definitely have a problem is Enrique publicly criticizing Moreno for being disloyal and too ambitious. It's totally subjective, completely unnecessary and he's handled it poorly; ergo, he's being a bit of a cnut here.

 

[Bepi]

Point here was the manager needs to be sure his assistants will work with and for him, not against or half-hearted?

 

[kidbob]

It ain't disloyal if they want it but it's disloyal if a player wants to leave a club he sees is sinking and therefore considering that guy to not be a 'legend' because of it. Assistant managers are held to lower standards than players even if they are both human. For what it's worth it's never disloyal to change jobs or aim higher. Disloyal is banging your best friend's wife after he has been there for you throughout your life.

 

[Snow]

Allow me to lay this out for you guys on a point by point basis so perhaps you can understand my perspective.

I've no problem with Enrique returning to his role at the time of his choosing as agreed.
I've no problem with Moreno asking Enrique for the chance to lead the team at the Euros. He earned the right to ask that question by taking them through qualification successfully. From what Enrique said, I think he even agrees with this.
I may have a problem if Moreno dug his heels in with the Spanish FA and said "I have a contract, bitches", but I don't know if that's the case.
Where I definitely have a problem is Enrique publicly criticizing Moreno for being disloyal and too ambitious. It's totally subjective, completely unnecessary and he's handled it poorly; ergo, he's being a bit of a cnut here.

You think that's worse than what Moreno wanted? I think Enrique is spot on here. Moreno took on the job knowing what it entailed. When judgement day came he wasn't having it and wanted more. It's pretty much the definition of being disloyal here. Enrique is speaking because he obviously has to clear it up why the man that was in charge in his absence is not there anymore. Enrique lays out his principles, explains that Moreno doesn't fit them and therefor they can't continue their previous work relationship.

 

[izec]

I have to agree with Enrique here. He cant be 100% sure that Moreno will be behind him.

In general, there is nothing wrong with assistants wanting to become head coaches, as long as they give it all in their current position. The issue here is going from head coach back to assistant, when you want the top job now.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

You think that's worse than what Moreno wanted? I think Enrique is spot on here. Moreno took on the job knowing what it entailed. When judgement day came he wasn't having it and wanted more. It's pretty much the definition of being disloyal here. Enrique is speaking because he obviously has to clear it up why the man that was in charge in his absence is not there anymore. Enrique lays out his principles, explains that Moreno doesn't fit them and therefor they can't continue their previous work relationship.

Yes, definitely. Moreno met with Enrique in person and posed the question. I don't see anything wrong with that. People may not agree with his approach but it's not morally reprehensible.

Enrique could have made up compelling reasons why Moreno was not returning as his number two that don't slander the guy for wanting an opportunity that he claims to understand.

 

[GDaly95]

Sounds like there's more to the Monk thing.

Monk said 'many warned him'. He tried to leave in the 'worst possible way'.

 

[Rado_N]

There’s nothing wrong with wanting progression, but there’s a way of going about it.

Monk helped Clotet get the job at Oxford and then brought him back in when he made a balls of it, only for Clotet to go behind his back and engineer his way into taking Monk’s job.

 

[Gopher Brown]

It is both disloyal and the right thing to do for an assistant to move up elsewhere. I don’t see why the two are mutually exclusive, not everything can be reduced to neat and tidy black-and-white.

 

[Snow]

Yes, definitely. Moreno met with Enrique in person and posed the question. I don't see anything wrong with that. People may not agree with his approach but it's not morally reprehensible.

Enrique could have made up compelling reasons why Moreno was not returning as his number two that don't slander the guy for wanting an opportunity that he claims to understand.

The way Enrique tells it Moreno didn't pose the question but rather he wanted to do so. Enrique also said that he understands his ambition and wanting the opportunity of a life time and he respected that but even though he respects it doesn't mean he has to agree with it.

It is both disloyal and the right thing to do for an assistant to move up elsewhere. I don’t see why the two are mutually exclusive, not everything can be reduced to neat and tidy black-and-white.

That's the key thing here. That's not what the Enrique example is about.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The way Enrique tells it Moreno didn't pose the question but rather he wanted to do so. Enrique also said that he understands his ambition and wanting the opportunity of a life time and he respected that but even though he respects it doesn't mean he has to agree with it.

I think he has approached this all wrong and it's going to backfire on him come time for the big show.

 

[forevrared]

Sounds like there's plenty going on behind the scenes in both situations - but I'd say there's a difference between an assistant who does his job well in hopes of earning a managerial job elsewhere and one who undermines his boss in an attempt to take his job.

 

[Snow]

I think he has approached this all wrong and it's going to backfire on him come time for the big show.

Moreno leaving might backfire but there's nothing he can do about that after the mutiny attempt. Don't think Enrique did much work by explaining the events around Moreno's departure.

There's also a cultural aspect to take into consideration here.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Moreno leaving might backfire but there's nothing he can do about that after the mutiny attempt. Don't think Enrique did much work by explaining the events around Moreno's departure.

There's also a cultural aspect to take into consideration here.

Telling Enrique face to face that he'd like to take the team to the Euros isn't much of a mutiny, but Enrique's slander of Moreno might negatively impact the players who worked with him to qualify.

The lack of tact shown is stunning. He'd have been better off claiming that Moreno returning to his assistant role would have been difficult for everyone involved and it was decided it would be best for him to move on.

 

[Gopher Brown]

The way Enrique tells it Moreno didn't pose the question but rather he wanted to do so. Enrique also said that he understands his ambition and wanting the opportunity of a life time and he respected that but even though he respects it doesn't mean he has to agree with it.


That's the key thing here. That's not what the Enrique example is about.

I was answering the question posed by the title

 

[Snow]

I was answering the question posed by the title

Generally a good idea to go beyond the title. Titles can be misleading.

 

[SirReginald]

In usual circumstances, businesses are always looking to promote and develop 'leaders of tomorrow'. It's almost always in their best interest, hiring internally means less training, knowing the culture and way of working and sometimes even less pay.

In Enriques situation, I'm fairly certain the Spanish FA said he would always be welcomed back, if or when he was ready. For someone close to him to say 'Hey buddy, mind I take this a little further and then you come back?' is both deeply disturbing and disrespectful after everything that happened.

His former assistant will have a hard time getting another employ to believe he is a good character after that and from a employer's point of view, who is going to touch him now? At least in the immediate future, anyone employing him would be labelled as condoning his behaviour and in the world of social media, that would be a poor move.