Yeah I wonder how many people would have wanted former Balon D'or Kaka over the likes of Iniesta, Xavi and Busquets during those years
Is Mou still 'The Special One' for you all?
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
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Well fergie did not adapoted entirely a defensive style in the final the midfield and defense was pretty open . Sir alex did put park ji sung in the final to counter the ball domination capability of xavi in the midfeild with parks energy and high pressing , something what he did to Pirlo too in ac milan game which was successful but it failed in the final with xavi as park failed to implement the game plan and xavi toyed with him.
For that firstly we need Our CB's Smalling and Jones to be fit aswe have only 4 cb's and 2 get injured most of the time , Secondly Pogba struggles defensively in a 2 man midfeild against top teams with good attacking midfeilders. but our attack would benefit the most in a 343 with no defensive duties for martial and Mkh , but zlatan has to stop dropping deeper to recive the ball and stay in the box. We did play 343 352in some games when zlatan was suspended.
I feel a 4312 with Martial and zlatan as strikers would suit the best for over all balance.
They were up against the best club of course. It is to jose's credit to win one over that team in 3 years.
But, on 3rd season, falling so far down should be down on him too. You can't give him credit for all good things ONLY.
SAF didn't exactly adopt a "defensive style" for any of final games against them. I suggest you should look at those finals again.
Large parts of this are on the money, actually, and I share your frustrations. Particularly regarding the bolded. We have great players all over the squad. And we'll buy some great players in the summer. And then, these great players will struggle and no longer be great players next season - most likely according to the same people that criticise our current bunch, obviously.
Of course, Mourinho can change this. He can be more positive, for one. He can play his best players every week, too. There's no doubt that Mourinho has what it takes to turn the club around. But, on the basis of this season and our current standard of football, the output hasn't been remotely good enough. Hence some of the criticism is justified.
I'm not claiming it wasn't down to him, his fallout with the Madrid squad is well documented.
We were pretty defensive, we opted to play Park who's main goal was to try and nullify their midfield. We didn't pick Nani who was for large portions of the season our beat attacking player. I remember we looked much better when Nani came on mater in the match, albeit it was only for a small portion of the game. We sat extremely deep, which was pretty pointless because Messi was effortlessly breaking us down time and time again.
There just wasn't a whole load you could have done about that Barca team, they were incredible. We were throughly dominated in every department that game.
In relation to the question asked in the title (Is that being discussed or am I late?) as much as I love Jose, I would have to say no. Jose at Chelsea and Inter seemed absolutely invincible. He was the manager you feared coming up against. He lost a bit of his sheen during the Madrid stint, starting from the first Classico when he lost 5-0 throughout to the end of what people considered an uninspiring tenure, and the final season of his second Chelsea stint speaks for itself. I disagree that his Madrid performance was uninspiring, coming up against that Barcelona team was no easy feat, and Jose is still the only manager to ever have beaten Pep to a league title (of course due to change this season). As for Chelsea, he did win a league title with them once again.
With that being said, Jose having lost his aura of invincibility is not an indictment on his ability. He was still the #1 manager I wanted to replace SAF and when he eventually joined us in the summer I was still overjoyed. He's still one of the top two managers in the world (I view him and Pep as level) in my opinion.
Jose clearly feeds off of being regarded as the best. Having taken a beating, so to speak, over the last few years, will have definitely taken a toll on him. When the day comes that he wins something big with United I feel we will see shades of the old Special one return again.
How long that takes, or how much has to be spent for it to happen is what we can never be sure about, but the only thing you can accurately judge a manager based on is their track record, and Jose's trophy haul speaks for itself. For that reason, even if he doesn't seem as "special" as he used to, I still fully believe in our manager.
With that being said, Jose having lost his aura of invincibility is not an indictment on his ability. He was still the #1 manager I wanted to replace SAF and when he eventually joined us in the summer I was still overjoyed. He's still one of the top two managers in the world (I view him and Pep as level) in my opinion.
Jose clearly feeds off of being regarded as the best. Having taken a beating, so to speak, over the last few years, will have definitely taken a toll on him. When the day comes that he wins something big with United I feel we will see shades of the old Special one return again.
How long that takes, or how much has to be spent for it to happen is what we can never be sure about, but the only thing you can accurately judge a manager based on is their track record, and Jose's trophy haul speaks for itself. For that reason, even if he doesn't seem as "special" as he used to, I still fully believe in our manager.
Wonder when he is going to win it for us with a tactical change or properly devised attacking plan/system. Right now all he is doing is putting 11 men on the pitch and hope they win it for him.
Good analysis, but I think all of these managers are still at the height of their powers and any of these clubs would be fools to lose patience with them unless there is another Jose-at-Chelsea like meltdown. Who is left to replace them? Simeone? Koeman? Allegri? I doubt Pochettino makes a lateral move to another EPL club. This is also the problem Arsenal faces, I see why they might want to try something new but I'm not sure there is any guaranteed successor waiting in the wings. I've seen a concrete improvement in the right direction... that's good enough for me at least for a couple years.
By the way, who do you think Pep will keep and who will he get rid in his current squad
We have 12 possible games in the next 40 days, preserving energy in the second half of games, in which we are leading, is going to be happen in each and every match. It's the up to the attack to make best of the limited number of chances we create. Jose doesn't have ability to rotate the squad like Fergie.
Jose doesn't do "properly devised attacking plan/system", he is a defensive minded coach; basically a Tony Pulis with money and pedigree. What he is does is he gives the team a proper defensive shape, it's up to the "four attackers" (sometimes only two in tougher games) to get the goal/goals needed to win games. There will be hardly any games in which we have two attacking fullbacks bombing forward and doing overlaps to get numerical advantages. At Chelsea, Hazard did most of the attacking heavy lifting on the left with Azpi staying back and fortifying the defense. At Madrid it was Arbeloa on the right. We get Darmian on the left when Valencia plays on the right, or Darmian on the right if a Shaw is on the left. That's just one example.
He is the 'Vaginal One'. He wins by being extremely cautious and pragmatic. He'll most likely win us Europa too doing it his way. Two trophies and back to CL won't be a bad return for this season. I know that for fans who are fans because they want to enjoy football the two trophies don't compensate for the mind numbing football on offer twice a week; but unfortunately our club is desperate at the moment to prevent a Liverpool like slide. So, tolerate him for a little while.
Jose doesn't do "properly devised attacking plan/system", he is a defensive minded coach; basically a Tony Pulis with money and pedigree. What he is does is he gives the team a proper defensive shape, it's up to the "four attackers" (sometimes only two in tougher games) to get the goal/goals needed to win games. There will be hardly any games in which we have two attacking fullbacks bombing forward and doing overlaps to get numerical advantages. At Chelsea, Hazard did most of the attacking heavy lifting on the left with Azpi staying back and fortifying the defense. At Madrid it was Arbeloa on the right. We get Darmian on the left when Valencia plays on the right, or Darmian on the right if a Shaw is on the left. That's just one example.
He is the 'Vaginal One'. He wins by being extremely cautious and pragmatic. He'll most likely win us Europa too doing it his way. Two trophies and back to CL won't be a bad return for this season. I know that for fans who are fans because they want to enjoy football the two trophies don't compensate for the mind numbing football on offer twice a week; but unfortunately our club is desperate at the moment to prevent a Liverpool like slide. So, tolerate him for a little while.
Interesting turn from you mate. Usually your posts have been "it's the players fault" or "players are not good enough".
So far Mourinho hasn't done a very good job of getting the best out of players he has and we can only speculate why is that.
You're ignoring some very important facts. At Dortmund Klopp had way less money and power to attract players than Bayern and he still competed with them and managed to win trophies. In Liverpool he inherited a much less talented squad than ours but they're playing some amazing football.
They basically wiped the floor with majority of top opponents they faced and as I said they sit higher in the table albeit with couple of matches more than we have, but we're still to play against City, Spurs, Arsenal and Chelsea.
You keep bringing up League Cup trophie like it isn't some B class thropy. There's a reason pretty much every other team played mostly their youth in League Cup.
I love Atletico and Cholo but last thropy he's won was league 3 years ago.
I think there is no point discussing anymore, our opinions can't be more opposite.
You're happy with dull and lifeless football that can get you some results every now and then, I'm more for a bit more pleasant on the eyes style of football.
You can't be serious with this?
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Some sympathy for the players who have had to learn and adjust to the demands and playing style of different managers, particularly LvG and Mourinho who are reputed for being exacting in how they want things done.
heh, possession % has remained largely the same from mourinho to now. We were mostly a transition team under him, and we are mostly a transition team right now
Actually, Di Maria is the best player in history against barcelona
Interesting, granted I've only watched Madrid a few times this season, but they don't seem as willing to sit off their opponents as they did under Jose. Certainly looks to be more on the front foot.heh, possession % has remained largely the same from mourinho to now. We were mostly a transition team under him, and we are mostly a transition team right now
Actually, Di Maria is the best player in history against barcelona
Jose is doing the same mistakes over and over again. By now, he really should know that we don't have the players or quality to see a game out, but he keeps trying as it's what he knows. But it doesn't work. Frustrating
Louis Van Gaal - Sit back and try grab 1 goal
Mourinho - Try grab 1 goal and sit back
Both isn't the United way.
Mourinho - Try grab 1 goal and sit back
Both isn't the United way.
I had Conte number one and then Pochettino, Klopp, Emery and Ancelotti above Pepe and Mourinho.
They both failed (thus far) to succesfully implement their tactics. Van Gaal wants to drill players into a well-oiled footballing machine in which every player knows precisely what his duties are on and off the ball in order to make it work seamlessly. This never gelled with the players at United; instead it backfired and erased almost any goal scoring threat.
Mourinho has created a pretty solid defence at United but the attacking players appear to be playing together for the first time, game after game after game. Didn't Hazard say a while back that Mourinho just lets his attacking players do whatever they want up top? Seems like the younger guys at United could really do with some established tactics to create a basic understanding between them. It's al relying on glimmers of brilliance and haphazard chances at the moment.
This. Fellaini and his cowardly tactics will cost him sooner than later.
He never was a special anything to me. I always hated his guts, I could tolerate his defensive tactical approach given that it's just one of several philosophies in football, but his off-the-pitch shenanigans disgust me. He is one of the worst managers at man management or developing players and I'm 100% positive it's just a matter of time before he does what he does best, which is losing the dressing room, for the 3rd time in his career.
Personally I'll reserve any judgement until half way through next season. Defensively we have become very good, DDG is not having to work that hard now which is a relief. We are attacking more but the decision making and sometimes the pace in the final third is something we have improve on obviously...or at least putting the dam ball in the back of the net with the chances we do create. He's given many of the squad members a chance this season and I'm sure he's got plans to improve things here and there, but at the end of the day we have some very good players in this team, proven elsewhere and I really don't think he'll add that many new recruits.
Mouirnho taking over LvG was always going to take time. Their approach to football couldn't be more contrasting.
Mourinho has been trying to rid our players of this 'make no mistake' mentality. He even mentioned it right on the eve of the season - he said this team weren't mentally right. We need to be patient.
Mourinho has been trying to rid our players of this 'make no mistake' mentality. He even mentioned it right on the eve of the season - he said this team weren't mentally right. We need to be patient.
This is a spot on post. Not a United manager. Everything is dictated by money these days. So many apologists here.
Good post. Regarding Conte I admit I'm quite surprised he managed to get his players playing as a single unit, getting the very best and absolute maximum out of them.
But than again he managed to do the same with Juventus and Italy in recent past.
At the beginning of the season I had Spurs, Arsenal and Liverpool as the top dogs, mostly due to the fact their managers had the time needed to implement their style and philosophy into the team. That and City and Chelsea having managers that are new to the EPL.
Regarding expectations I had from Mourinho, I was greatly reserved because of his style of football and the fact he was sacked from Chelsea and whole Madrid drama.
Personally it was Pochettino, Klopp and Ancelotti for me, tho I was willing to give Blanc a chance since he played for us and he played nice attacking football with Bordeaux and PSG.
Nonsense. What ground work? He inherited the team completely devoid of any confidence after the disastrous 2015-16 season and they were struggling early in the season (0-3 vs Arsenal, 1-2 vs Liverpool) when he tried to stick with the old Jose formation. The team has turned into a winning machine only after Conte decided to try a completely different system to the one Jose employed at Chelsea.
As for players, out of the current first eleven that virtually start every match only Costa and Matic were bought by Jose. Apart from Kante, Conte didn't get any of the players he wanted in the summer. Alonso and Luiz were last minute panic buys, fourth or fifth options down the list. People here were laughing at it and salivating over Pogba and Zlatan and everyone was betting on the title battle between two Manchester clubs "under the world's two best managers". Even Chelsea fans were quietly hoping to get back into the top four, at best.
Also, United squad may have defficiencies but it's still one of the best, and along with City's, one of the two deepest squads in the league. Truth is, Mourinho has failed to get the best out of that group of players this season, they're better than what we see on a pitch on a weekly basis.
Pochettino is certainly proving himself to be a very good manager, no doubt about that. I bet Real are keeping a close eye on him to see whether he actually wins anything.....
Yeah, I agree with you there. Conte changed the system...one that obviously wasn't working the season before but I kind of understand why he continued with it at the start of the season. Too much change at the start would have probably been too much. He's done a great job and is certainly the successful manager this season out of all the top clubs. I wouldn't have even considered him for United and I still think Jose will push us into a force again, he's already made us better in many ways, it's just the final product that is lacking somewhat at the moment.
Mou was always going to take time. What I like about him is that he is unapologetic when it comes to winning. He doesn't hide our ambitions and pretend its okay to be where we are. He's not cool with being where we are.
I think he should be judged on his decisions and man management.
Pros
- 4 good/great players bought
- good in handling the squad overall
- made us create a lot of chances again after the LVG boring era
- Handled the rooney thing extremely well
- Has created more competition in the squad by not blindly starting underperformers.
- Got Valencia going again
Cons
- hasn't succeeded in getting Shaw/Martial going
- Not being further up the table
- Problems with beating 'park the bus-teams'
Overall I think the pros and cons outbalances each other. Its surely not special and I fear if we don't get a top-drawer player like Sanchez/Griezmann he might not reach the top with United.
I think he should be judged on his decisions and man management.
Pros
- 4 good/great players bought
- good in handling the squad overall
- made us create a lot of chances again after the LVG boring era
- Handled the rooney thing extremely well
- Has created more competition in the squad by not blindly starting underperformers.
- Got Valencia going again
Cons
- hasn't succeeded in getting Shaw/Martial going
- Not being further up the table
- Problems with beating 'park the bus-teams'
Overall I think the pros and cons outbalances each other. Its surely not special and I fear if we don't get a top-drawer player like Sanchez/Griezmann he might not reach the top with United.
Tbh think all of the top clubs are keeping an eye on him now.
There's a theme with the last 3 managers, they're all fecking toxic man managers. This is still a team devoid of confidence and stuttering in attack which is mad 4 years after Fergie retired. It would be nice to have a manager without a dour, slapped face expression 90% of the time who actually makes an effort to get the best out of players instead of throwing them under the bus.
I'm still fine with Mourinho's carrying on next season but it could easily be another year of petty disputes and Mourinho looking increasing like the manager who nearly took Chelsea to the relegation places than the one who won the title.
I'm still fine with Mourinho's carrying on next season but it could easily be another year of petty disputes and Mourinho looking increasing like the manager who nearly took Chelsea to the relegation places than the one who won the title.
I see similarity with all 3 managers. All doesnt play attacking football. The next manager better be an attacking coach. Having said this, I still support Mourinho for his second season.
Mourinho won the league two years ago, the league cup this year and Klopp, Sampaoli and poch has won what?
how can you state these managers are better NOWADAYS
Jose is halfway there. Unfortunately, or fortunately, it's the back half.
Replace the likes of Martial and Rashford next season with Griezmann and Da Silva: ooh baby!
Replace the likes of Martial and Rashford next season with Griezmann and Da Silva: ooh baby!
Nail on head. Fergies idea was to score an early goal and score more to kill games. Fergie usually saved the defensive set ups for the very best teams like Barcelona, Real, Bayern or the Italian giant at the time. Mourinho clearly doesn't have much belief in our forwards to score the second goal in games so plays to see the game out without conceding.
Next season will be the season to truly judge Jose and the style of football we play when he has his new signings in the club. Until then we have to accept that Mourinho is going to play safety first when a goal up as none of our forwards besides Ibra have demonstrated an acceptable chance conversion rate.
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He said they are doing a better job than Mourinho is currently, and it's true. All their respective teams are playing better than we are atm.
Jose will come good. Its bad luck we are drawing all those games in the PL.
I have faith in him. Just need to be a bit more clinical and hardened.
Granted we will only get three/four years out of him, but we will win things.
I have faith in him. Just need to be a bit more clinical and hardened.
Granted we will only get three/four years out of him, but we will win things.
And when those fail to deliver just replace them as well, and so on, and so on…
First time on the caf today and I knew this thread would be on top of the page.
Well, yeah.
Although I wouldn't expect them to fail as they've already proven they're world class as opposed to our current strugglers.
usual garbage....
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