Is Ole’s football really any better than José & LVG’s?

[McGrathsipan]

There is no question the football, on the whole, is still just as shit as it was under LVG or Mourinho. There is also no question though there are signs that might not be the case for much longer if we get a better balanced squad - a proper defensive midfielder and sorting out the right side of attack must be priorities this summer. The fact is unless there is a complete freefall down the table, which is unlikely, Ole has a job for life under the Glazers.

you have to consider the modern game as well. Alot of teams set up to play antifootball, to stifle and that has an effect.
I agree that most of the time we are dire to watch and need to inject quality into the team to look better, but the double edged sword is that the better you get the more defensive and stifling the oppo becomes.
Football is different now and drab games are part an parcel of it these days

 

[padzilla]

you have to consider the modern game as well. Alot of teams set up to play antifootball, to stifle and that has an effect.
I agree that most of the time we are dire to watch and need to inject quality into the team to look better, but the double edged sword is that the better you get the more defensive and stifling the oppo becomes.
Football is different now and drab games are part an parcel of it these days

You make a solid point. Modern football is bordering on unwatchable on the whole, sitting through entire games these days can be quite the slog.

 

[McGrathsipan]

You make a solid point. Modern football is bordering on unwatchable on the whole, sitting through entire games these days can be quite the slog.

Agree with that, its hard unless your team is ripping it up. Liverpool before they collapsed were playing great stuff. Very entertaining but for United fans naturally it was fecking hard to enjoy.

The modern game is just something I cant explain. The players dont seem the same to me, less interested in leaving it all on the field for their team barring a few excpetions. For example when you consider the intensity and passion of players like Keane, Viera, gerard, Terry etc not so long ago, and compare that type of player to what we have today , you can see they are worlds apart. Why? Is it money, agents, foreign player acquisition, millennial influence?? A combination of all of that and more I think.

 

[pocco]

he spent the money on defence correct, but that doesn’t chance the fact that the centre of the pitch is still poor?
just because you now have more freedom it doesn’t change matic being older and slower, Fred not being anything other than a pest for the opposition, and mctom being an average footballer. They could be given the freedom of Manchester and it wouldn’t change a thing. More best talent is pogba and ole has been getting the best out of him recently, however he’s injured again. Mou had injury free pogba with a younger matic and Herrera (who is essentially Fred with end product)

yes he has a more mature rashford (and he’s been more productive) yes he’s got Bruno and he’s being used great in a role that’s allowed him to achieve those stats.

but the heart of the team is poor on the ball and offers no support to those front 3

I disagree obviously. But what you're saying is that Ole made our team worse, basically.

 

[padzilla]

Agree with that, its hard unless your team is ripping it up. Liverpool before they collapsed were playing great stuff. Very entertaining but for United fans naturally it was fecking hard to enjoy.

The modern game is just something I cant explain. The players dont seem the same to me, less interested in leaving it all on the field for their team barring a few excpetions. For example when you consider the intensity and passion of players like Keane, Viera, gerard, Terry etc not so long ago, and compare that type of player to what we have today , you can see they are worlds apart. Why? Is it money, agents, foreign player acquisition, millennial influence?? A combination of all of that and more I think.

It is a strange one, I suspect I might be showing my age, but you see players, especially ours, laughing and grinning with the opposition after a defeat a lot more these days than you used to.
They really don't seem to care which surely is not the case.

 

[McGrathsipan]

It is a strange one, I suspect I might be showing my age, but you see players, especially ours, laughing and grinning with the opposition after a defeat a lot more these days than you used to.
They really don't seem to care which surely is not the case.

thats a good point - I am 41 - maybe 21 year olds like the modern game.

Might be worth a thread on its own as a discussion - the difference between viewpoints

 

[padzilla]

thats a good point - I am 41 - maybe 21 year olds like the modern game.

Might be worth a thread on its own as a discussion - the difference between viewpoints

Yep around the same age myself, starting to wonder if I should start posts with an Uncle Albert style 'during the war'...

 

[McGrathsipan]

Yep around the same age myself, starting to wonder if I should start posts with an Uncle Albert style 'during the war'...

 

[SirScholes]

I disagree obviously. But what you're saying is that Ole made our team worse, basically.

Obviously not, I’m saying he spent money on defence and hasn’t yet addressed the middle of the pitch? But twist my words which ever way you want
We are playing better football with a worse midfield

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

We'll have to disagree on that. Was having a similar conversation with another poster recently where they were minimising Ole's involvement in recruitment in particular, citing the fact he can be veto'd as a reason to remove any praise he deserves for player selection.

Yes there have been improvements behind the scenes but Ole has been integral to that. He still chooses the players we sign. It's echoed in what he says regarding the type of player we look for and he's been consistent with that since his arrival, likewise he was integral in getting rid of players who didn't fit that vision. He's done a brilliant job and people like to pretend he hasn't, I understand frustration with the lack of consistency, fair enough, but recruitment and the overall direction is better and I don't agree it's in any way linked to Mourinho, it's the polar opposite imo.

So with a worse direction, worse squad and worse football, Jose was able to get more trophies, more points and a better position (we haven't finished 2nd yet) than Ole has. What does that tell you?

 

[izec]

Needs to be sacked and the discussion will have no meaning. In circles, same as with the other managers. Not good enough and underperforming is what they have in common.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Is the title of this thread a joke?

Both of the previously named managers and especially the Portuguese has-been, promoted the destruction of our club. They both employed the same principle: buy the team out of trouble. £90m here, £60m there. There bought plasters to put over the cracks and NOT to build a cohesive body of players, a team made of youth with potential sprinkled with a few diamonds.

LGV remained on his kingly throne while his team struggled against the oppositions. Mourinho's teams employed a style that was mind-numbingly boring: three steps forward and two steps back.

Ole's style is a return to United's/Ferguson's style. He has bought, on the whole, well. And I can see developments. Had the owners and higher management given him at least 50% of the players he wanted (instead of giving him nothing) then Ole's team's progress might have been more advanced.

I believe next season will be better for Ole. The players will be more cohesive. Youth promoted and maybe a couple of players that our manager wants to buy.

So if £300 million is nothing, what is 50% to you?

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

It is a strange one, I suspect I might be showing my age, but you see players, especially ours, laughing and grinning with the opposition after a defeat a lot more these days than you used to.
They really don't seem to care which surely is not the case.

I personally think it is because these players are so rich that they have much more common with each other than before and can only hang around the uber rich like themselves. Salaries weren't this obscene about 20 years back and they could relate to normal folk a bit. It is difficult for Harry to be vicious to Sterling when he is likely having dinner at his home the same day.

 

[RUCK4444]

So with a worse direction, worse squad and worse football, Jose was able to get more trophies, more points and a better position (we haven't finished 2nd yet) than Ole has. What does that tell you?

It doesn’t tell me Mourinho was good for this club, because there’s more to it than a 2nd place finish and a couple of cups. Our ambitions are higher than that, which requires a longer term vision.

Be honest you wouldn’t go back to Mourinho’s poisonous management, awful style of negative football. His was a particularly low point for us, when he left this team was abject, unbalanced and void of any belief whatsoever through his negativity and through him throwing players under the bus etc. I don’t need to remind you of that.

If you are unable to see theres more to it than simply comparing any manager we have to Mourinho then it’s not worth having the conversation.

 

[padzilla]

I personally think it is because these players are so rich that they have much more common with each other than before and can only hang around the uber rich like themselves. Salaries weren't this obscene about 20 years back and they could relate to normal folk a bit. It is difficult for Harry to be vicious to Sterling when he is likely having dinner at his home the same day.

I think a lot of it is down to the more international than before make up of the squads as well. Players of the same nationalities or cultures are more likely to hang out with players from similar backgrounds who live nearby rather than just their teammates like what used to be the case years ago. But then again you never see United players animated by any injustices on the pitch, there is no next to reaction anymore which suggests they just see it as a salary more than anything else.

 

[padzilla]

I will be surprised if Ole can get us back to the level Mourinho had us in his last full season in terms of 81 points and finishing second being regarded as a disappointing season. For many here a second place finish under Ole this season with less points would be seen as fantastic, there is no doubt Ole has been brought in to help reduce expectations slowly but surely - to that degree he has been an undoubted success. The football has only been sporadically better at times than Jose or LVG but when it has worked it has been brilliant, if Ole could harness that level then he will do quite well in the job - at the minute the jury is still very much out for me but I suspect he has the job for the long term unless there is a complete collapse lasting for months on end.

 

[pocco]

Obviously not, I’m saying he spent money on defence and hasn’t yet addressed the middle of the pitch? But twist my words which ever way you want
We are playing better football with a worse midfield

Unless my memory fails me, Ole got rid of the players you claim were better.

It's subjective that we play better football. Compared to Jose's last full season, I think we are better in every area, defence, midfield and attack, due to significant investment and top level talent coming through/maturing. In spite of all that, I don't think our football is any better as a collective. We have Bruno who adds so much to our team; take him out and we'd be nowhere near top 4 and Ole would be long gone.

 

[pocco]

Comparisons with Jose are daft. I think we can all accept that Jose lost his spark a long time ago and was never a good fit to work under Woodward. Many managers could have come in and raised the morale around the place following him.

The point with Jose is that, actually, he did well with what we had. We have improved significantly since then in terms of our squad, along with huge investment, and are still trying to compete for the same second rate trophies. Trophies he won at a canter. There's a genuine argument to be made that we aren't getting the most out of what we have and that a better manager, which Jose obviously is, could get more from us.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

Agree with that, its hard unless your team is ripping it up. Liverpool before they collapsed were playing great stuff. Very entertaining but for United fans naturally it was fecking hard to enjoy.

The modern game is just something I cant explain. The players dont seem the same to me, less interested in leaving it all on the field for their team barring a few excpetions. For example when you consider the intensity and passion of players like Keane, Viera, gerard, Terry etc not so long ago, and compare that type of player to what we have today , you can see they are worlds apart. Why? Is it money, agents, foreign player acquisition, millennial influence?? A combination of all of that and more I think.

I would think it’s more just down to the tactical work put in and data models teams will have. More fore thought goes in to games now than before. I wouldn’t be surprised if players are given data packages on what they will likely face and percentages of players choosing certain moves or passes in situations.

Where as before it was probably more to do with gut and instinct now players probably study opposition hard before every game. So it then nullifies the game.

As for comparisons to Jose an LVG, yeah it can still be clueless and drab but Ole certainly allows way more freedom than Jose did. LVG I think would have loved this squad and we would have seen a better representation of how he actually plays football compared to where we were before he was sacked.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

It doesn’t tell me Mourinho was good for this club, because there’s more to it than a 2nd place finish and a couple of cups. Our ambitions are higher than that, which requires a longer term vision.

Be honest you wouldn’t go back to Mourinho’s poisonous management, awful style of negative football. His was a particularly low point for us, when he left this team was abject, unbalanced and void of any belief whatsoever through his negativity and through him throwing players under the bus etc. I don’t need to remind you of that.

If you are unable to see theres more to it than simply comparing any manager we have to Mourinho then it’s not worth having the conversation.

I don't want Jose, I just don't see how we have improved on Jose. You think if Ole gets more players he can win us something, that might become true. But I think if Jose's United team who got second was in the league this season with Ole's current United we would be quite similar in points and league position.

 

[Trequarista10]

When things are going well then Mourinho is one of the best managers in the world, and obviously outclasses Ole. Mourinho's troughs were lower than Ole's though, or least felt like it given how much turmoil he seemed to create.

 

[RUCK4444]

I don't want Jose, I just don't see how we have improved on Jose. You think if Ole gets more players he can win us something, that might become true. But I think if Jose's United team who got second was in the league this season with Ole's current United we would be quite similar in points and league position.

But that’s my point, we wouldn’t have this squad now, Ole’s chosen these players, Mourinho would have more middle aged mediocrity and in a year or so we would need a total rebuild (again)

 

[Hellboy]

Ole is better than Jose and LVG.

Jose is crazy with his defensive park bus tactics. It's ridiculous because Man Utd has always been an attacking side so his defensive style totally destroy the spirit of the team. His insistence to play big players like Fellaini, Lukaku and Matic slowed down the team.

LVG is also crazy with his possessive style of football. He also destroyed the core of the team when he sold off Chicharito, RVP, Evra, Vidic and others. Ridiculous. The players he bought in were actually decent players like Shaw, Martial, Blind, Herrera, Di Maria, Falcao, Depay etc but somehow a spell was cast on them and most of them took a long time to perform well and most left the club and performed well.

Ole is the only one who understands the United Way.

He understands the United way i.e parking the bus against Milan at home having 8 defensive players on the pitch

 

[Beagle]

I've stopped watching our matches because of our football (and the results). I never reached this point with LVG and Mourinho (although disliked them both as well), so I don't know what that says about Ole. Either my patience has run out or Ole is even worse than his predecessors.

Same here. Exactly my thoughts and I think it's due to patience running out. Watching these games has become a chore instead of being entertaining. But I like to keep up with the results and watch the goal highlights. Saves so much time than watching a whole match.

 

[croadyman]

It's really tough to tell because Ole has matches where we are great and then matches where we actually look worse than Jose.

Yeah they are usually the matches when the opposition leaves us space in behind them to counter attack whereas in the games where teams just sit in like against Palace & Sheff Utd we look distinctly average far too often and it's worrying

 

[dpansheth]

Ole is better than Jose and LVG.

Jose is crazy with his defensive park bus tactics. It's ridiculous because Man Utd has always been an attacking side so his defensive style totally destroy the spirit of the team. His insistence to play big players like Fellaini, Lukaku and Matic slowed down the team.

LVG is also crazy with his possessive style of football. He also destroyed the core of the team when he sold off Chicharito, RVP, Evra, Vidic and others. Ridiculous. The players he bought in were actually decent players like Shaw, Martial, Blind, Herrera, Di Maria, Falcao, Depay etc but somehow a spell was cast on them and most of them took a long time to perform well and most left the club and performed well.

Ole is the only one who understands the United Way.

Being able to understand and being able to implement are two very different things

 

[croadyman]

I think you can see the difference last night. On paper 2 equal teams there or thereabouts. Their central midfield pissed all over ours. McTom Fred and Matic are not the quality we need in midfield if we want to have any hope of winning the big trophies.

BINGO

 

[Zen86]

Can you name 5 PL games this season where we've really played well for 90mins and it's not been a counter attacking setup? Leeds, So'ton, Everton...I'm genuinely trying to think here....even the big Newcastle win were were dreadful and then blitzed the last 10mins. Even if there are more than 5 (which is a stupidly low bar) I think you get my point. On our great run of games how many times were we outplayed or behind and have to score in the dying minutes or get a peno, the on the field creation is so minimal. I'm not even saying Ole is 100% to blame, for sure our coaching staff are novices for the most part and some players have definitely been out of form but, let's be honest, we are seeing multiple coaches in the PL get their teams playing well and they have a genuine argument for quality: I really don't think we do. Again, this is basically what Mou does - any criticism of how he plays and the entertainment factor is negated by trophies/league position: we haven't won trophies and we aren't getting higher than 2nd this season.

The real nail in the coffin for me will be if Chelsea catch us - that's a squad with similar depth and similar issues in terms of quality (lots of good players but very few world class players) who lost patience with their former player experiment and went for proven quality (Tuchel isn't even that proven but he's managed in top leagues and built entertaining teams). They were 11 points behind us when Tuchel came in, now it's 4, and the crazy thing is I'm not even sure he's that amazing he is just very switched on tactically, seems pretty dogmatic in how he wants them to play and you can already see them managing games to get the points they need.

Of course our form was patchy, and our winning run flattered us somewhat. We’ve been highly inconsistent all season and I‘ve never been under any illusion otherwise.

I don’t really know what your point is. You seem determined to equate not playing very well with ‘Mourinho football’. They aren’t the same thing. You also ignore the injury issues, the holes in our squad, and completely downplay the inconsistent form of our attacking players. Even Rashford, probably our best forward, while having decent numbers has been poor for large periods of this season and particularly during the games you seem to allude to. He’s a moments player more often than not.

We’ve rarely played fantastic over the course of the 90, but during periods of these games we’ve played stuff that far, far surpasses anything that LVG or Mourinho could come up with. And that’s the difference. That’s the football we’re aiming for. We’ve got our issues yes, but if you’re going to stick with the line of “Ole playing Mourinho football” then there’s no point in discussing this any further.

And for the record, most people had Chelsea pegged to finish above us this season based on their £200m spend last summer. Compare that with our summer. They’ve actually got a very good squad on paper. Maybe their recent resurgence is the new manager bounce (we should know all about that), but if not it’s more a reflection on how poor Lampard was than anything else. That said, Tuchel is hardly setting the world alight with attacking football, so I’m not sure whyhe’s entered the conversation.

 

[The Hilton]

Too many people in this thread are comparing the best of Mou with the worst of Ole, and coming to the conclusion that there's no improvement there, without realising that in itself is evidence of overall improvement.

People forget just how dull we were under LvG, and just how cowardly we were under Mou, not to mention how the latter completely lost the dressing room and had us in freefall.

It's not even close, the club is in a much healthier place under Ole, even if you don't think he's the man to take us to the next level.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Of course our form was patchy, and our winning run flattered us somewhat. We’ve been highly inconsistent all season and I‘ve never been under any illusion otherwise.

I don’t really know what your point is. You seem determined to equate not playing very well with ‘Mourinho football’. They aren’t the same thing. You also ignore the injury issues, the holes in our squad, and completely downplay the inconsistent form of our attacking players. Even Rashford, probably our best forward, while having decent numbers has been poor for large periods of this season and particularly during the games you seem to allude to. He’s a moments player more often than not.

We’ve rarely played fantastic over the course of the 90, but during periods of these games we’ve played stuff that far, far surpasses anything that LVG or Mourinho could come up with. And that’s the difference. That’s the football we’re aiming for. We’ve got our issues yes, but if you’re going to stick with the line of “Ole playing Mourinho football” then there’s no point in discussing this any further.

And for the record, most people had Chelsea pegged to finish above us this season based on their £200m spend last summer. Compare that with our summer. They’ve actually got a very good squad on paper. Maybe their recent resurgence is the new manager bounce (we should know all about that), but if not it’s more a reflection on how poor Lampard was than anything else. That said, Tuchel is hardly setting the world alight with attacking football, so I’m not sure whyhe’s entered the conversation.

How can you mention injuries when we’ve been way luckier than other teams?
How can you mention multiple players out of form without thinking it might, just might, have something to do with the coaching staff?

My point is I can’t see anything aesthetically about is now that makes me think ‘wow’ this football is so much better than under Mou. In fact Mou first season was much more entertaining than how we play now. So I ask myself if Ole is not creating an entertaining brand of football (which I think everyone agrees on to a degree) is his saving grace league position? Which is basically Mou’s hallmark - stale, pragmatic football but with results. I don’t think Ole is as defensive as Mourinho for what it’s worth but there’s not a huge difference in their setups and that’s the point of this thread.

 

[Zen86]

How can you mention injuries when we’ve been way luckier than other teams?
How can you mention multiple players out of form without thinking it might, just might, have something to do with the coaching staff?

My point is I can’t see anything aesthetically about is now that makes me think ‘wow’ this football is so much better than under Mou. In fact Mou first season was much more entertaining than how we play now. So I ask myself if Ole is not creating an entertaining brand of football (which I think everyone agrees on to a degree) is his saving grace league position? Which is basically Mou’s hallmark - stale, pragmatic football but with results. I don’t think Ole is as defensive as Mourinho for what it’s worth but there’s not a huge difference in their setups and that’s the point of this thread.

Of course it could come down to the coaching staff. Although I’m not sure how you can peg Rashford’s historic inconsistency on the current coaching staff, I don’t know how you can peg Martial’s historic inconsistency on the current coaching staff, I don’t know how you can blame Greenwood’s second season syndrome on the current coaching staff either. And that’s more or less our first choice front 3 for most of the last 2 years.

Our defending has been a concern, however. There could be a coaching issue there, but personally I think that is mostly down to a missing CB and goalkeeper.

But anyway. Carry on squarely pointing the blame at the Manchester United coaching boogeymen, whom you know absolutely nothing about.

 

[marktan]

Watching Spurs play against Arsenal, the constant hoofing it back to the opposition - no thanks. We leak more goals under Ole but the football is much more watchable.

 

[AshRK]

Maybe the OP should watch spurs play before asking stupid questions like this.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Of course it could come down to the coaching staff. Although I’m not sure how you can peg Rashford’s historic inconsistency on the current coaching staff, I don’t know how you can peg Martial’s historic inconsistency on the current coaching staff, I don’t know how you can blame Greenwood’s second season syndrome on the current coaching staff either. And that’s more or less our first choice front 3 for most of the last 2 years.

Our defending has been a concern, however. There could be a coaching issue there, but personally I think that is mostly down to a missing CB and goalkeeper.

But anyway. Carry on squarely pointing the blame at the Manchester United coaching boogeymen, whom you know absolutely nothing about.

I mean we all know a huge amount about the coaching team...that’s kind of the issue here...most came straight from badges into one of the biggest clubs in the world. It’s a massive risk.

 

[Zen86]

I mean we all know a huge amount about the coaching team...that’s kind of the issue here...most came straight from badges into one of the biggest clubs in the world. It’s a massive risk.

People just assume they don’t know how to do their job, because heaven forbid it can’t be the players at fault. Blaming the coaches every time one of our players drops a bollock is just a fad.

It’s the same with appointments like John Murtough. A big old internet tantrum kicks up because he hasn’t got a foreign name and worked at Ajax or Barcelona for 6 months.

 

[tomaldinho1]

People just assume they don’t know how to do their job, because heaven forbid it can’t be the players at fault. Blaming the coaches every time one of our players drops a bollock is just a fad.

It’s the same with appointments like John Murtough. A big old internet tantrum kicks up because he hasn’t got a foreign name and worked at Ajax or Barcelona for 6 months.

I personally don’t particularly care where coaches come from but I do think it’s a risk if you have elite ambitions to essentially have a completely rookie team plus Phelan, who was semi retired in Aus. It might work - you never know this could be the coaching equivalent of the class of ‘92 - but I think it’s fair that some posters are reading into it as a statement of where the intent of the owners is.

This goes back to the point about Ole and not rocking the boat - he’s never going to be poached and he’ll always speak well of the club, no matter how he is treated.

 

[Andycoleno9]

No. It is worse than under those two. Under Ole it is just parking the bus and praying for counter attack.

 

[Paxi]

Ole's football is marginally better than Jose's but still it's not saying much. We are fecking shocking to watch.
LvG's football hit the highest level. At least we had some 'philosophy'. This is just poor.

 

[Lentwood]

There’s one absolute sitter missed. Just pointing that out because at the end of this game if it finishes in a loss or draw the same old “boring football” argument will be trotted out

 

[Zen86]

I personally don’t particularly care where coaches come from but I do think it’s a risk if you have elite ambitions to essentially have a completely rookie team plus Phelan, who was semi retired in Aus. It might work - you never know this could be the coaching equivalent of the class of ‘92 - but I think it’s fair that some posters are reading into it as a statement of where the intent of the owners is.

This goes back to the point about Ole and not rocking the boat - he’s never going to be poached and he’ll always speak well of the club, no matter how he is treated.

It’s quite a laughable view in all honesty, albeit a common one on here. Despite knowing nothing of their capability and knowing nothing of what they do on the training pitch, these people can so unequivocally declare the coaches as the problem.