The further irony is that he only finally won the CL in his super stacked City teams when he abandoned his obsession with his philosophy and got a specialised goal scorer.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
- Thread starter Irrational.
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I am not sure about that and the main reason is how we seem to burden/allow our managers more responsabilities than most clubs depending which way you see it. At Barcelona, Pep worked for a board whose vision largely aligns with his and even then, they bought him someone like Zlatan who just didn't fit what they were doing. At City, he has people at the board that complement what he does and together, they clearly run a very smooth operation. I am unsure on how the setup was at Bayern and maybe someone from here can shed some light on it but I would be very surprised if he had the same say on transfers we seem to ask of our managers. He is easily the greatest coach of his generation and it's hard to think of someone who can perfect a system that is so dominant as much as he can, but as a club manager in charge of more than just coaching, he is really untested but again, nobody in the modern game is. We seem to hire these people to do a job that no longer exists.
It is because of its higher difficulty that there is less pressure; nobody actually expects that you'll do it.
Ancelotti Naggelsman Kovac all won the league at Bayern yet got fired in their 2nd season and deemed failures. Same type of pressure at Madrid where top coaches have been canned even after winning like DelBosque, Mourinho
Last edited:
Being a coach at Liverpool is probably easier than being a coach at Bayern. Naggelsman was in the running for a treble when he got fired, At Liverpool he can finish 5th and everyone will shrug
Yep. People go on about the money, but we've seen teams struggle despite spending tons of money. He spends plenty of money, but he's also the cloest thing to a guarenteed success you have in football.
We've spent plenty in recent years. Enough for him to be successful at United (obviouly right now, with our FFP limitations, the situation is different).
The one thing he'll struggle with us the total lack of quality structure to support him. Money is great but you also have to locate and identify the right players. I'm sure he hasn't done it alone.
Who were the top quality he inherited at City? Joe Hart, Sagna, Clichy, Zabaleta Yaya, Fernando, Navas, Bony,. All these "top quality players" left City and couldn't get any top club to sign them
Massive funds have been injected at Chelsea and Man Utd in the same time with way inferior results
And he had Liverpool competing with City for the highest point totals ever, without spending silly money, and won Liverpools first league title in several decades and a back to back Cl. Winning the 2nd one
To be in the running for greatest manager ever, he'd have to take over a mediocre team and make them great, and not break a bunch of rules and get thrown out of football for cheating in the process, only to be let off on a technicality. It might be unfair to put a ceiling on him for that, but it isn't that unfair really as no one forced Man City to cheat and no one forced him to carry on managing them when they did, or when he found out.
I would still say there's enough there to say he's a great manager, but then even just going by current managers you have Klopp who's massively overperformed and won trophies with Dortmund and then transformed a mid table Liverpool side into league and CL winners. Both despite being financially out muscled by opposition clubs (one of who has cheated). Pep hasn't really done anything to suggest he could replicate this.
People are so desperate to not lose something with football that they will ignore cheating, but its obviously a factor if you're talking about who's the greatest ever. If you're the greatest person ever at a thing, then you obviously wouldn't need to cheat at it.
I would still say there's enough there to say he's a great manager, but then even just going by current managers you have Klopp who's massively overperformed and won trophies with Dortmund and then transformed a mid table Liverpool side into league and CL winners. Both despite being financially out muscled by opposition clubs (one of who has cheated). Pep hasn't really done anything to suggest he could replicate this.
People are so desperate to not lose something with football that they will ignore cheating, but its obviously a factor if you're talking about who's the greatest ever. If you're the greatest person ever at a thing, then you obviously wouldn't need to cheat at it.
Doing that at Liverpool is probably enough to earn him a 5yr contract, doing that at some club wont even guarantee you will see the next month. You have to win, win all the time, win all the time playing a certain way and be in good books of management
How many coaches have we said "See how he is performing with smaller budget imagine what he will do with a bigger club" and they failed. Klopp hasn't worked in such environment
Are you seriously asking this unironically?
When he arrived City had:
Hart, Otamendi, Kompany, Kolarov, Clichy, Zabaleta, Sagna, Fernandinho, Fernando, Delph, Yaya Touré, De Bruyne, Silva, Nasri, Sterling, Aguero, Bony
On that summer he bought:
Bravo, Stones, Gundogan, Nolito, Sané
And on winter:
Jesus
The players you mentioned left City... because City had even better options already in the squad for almost all those players.
Yaya and Clichy obviously didn't get a better club after City because... they were old already.
Otamendi / Kompany / Kolarov / Fernandinho / Yaya Touré / Silva / Sterling / Aguero
This is an almost complete team of players that have been some of the best in the Premier League in the previous seasons.
City not only had these but also a ton of good but not starter material players, several like many I mentioned above.
He not only inherited this already very high quality spine but kept adding more and more players every transfer window and could ditch 40 M€ players in the next window if he wanted to because the club kept buying whatever he wanted.
Aguero, Kompany, Yaya Toure, David Silva, KDB, Raheem Sterling, and others
Out of those names only Ancelotti is considered anywhere near the bracket of Klopp, and he hasn’t been the most consistent manager in the league overall, still he’s managing Madrid at this very time. Winning the league can never be considered a failure, Klopp would win the league in style at Bayern just like Guardiola did, he’s a a better manager than Nagslsmann and Kovac.
Klopp has worked with a bigger budget at Liverpool and done well anytime he’s had to spend money see VVD Alisson signings for example , you can’t compare Klopp with Moyes and Potter for example some of the names being named , to think less money would be harmful to Klopp as a manager is laughable.
It’s simply an excuse to help further Guardiola argument, no top manager would do less well with more money, Potter isn’t a top manager, Moyes isn’t a top manager either.
Del Bosque and Mourinho surely can be seen on a similar level as Klopp and I would add Heynckes as a perfect example - Real fired him for failing to win the league just days after winning the CL, and Bayern didn't extend his contract because they did believe Pep would improve the team further - he won the treble in that season
Liverpool is a far bigger club than City with a much more demanding fan base. City don't even have enough fans to put any pressure on Pep and the ones they do have make out like they're living in some fairytale where little old Manchester City made it to the top of the footballing pile simply by being so well run, not because they won the lottery. Nobody really cares if they win or lose and that's the sad truth of the matter.
How many managers of top clubs would last as long as Pep has at City if they spent the money he has and still got knocked out of the CL by the likes of Monaco, Lyon and Spurs? Nobody is getting 7 years to have a crack at it at the likes of Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG or Chelsea.
Pep is a spoiled, "utopia" manager. All the jobs he's had have been basically the easiest managerial jobs.
Barcelona 2008-2012, probably the most talented team ever with GOAT Messi in his prime and the best midfield of all time(Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta). Not even gonna mention all the other talented players he had at his disposal at that time like Dani Alves, Thiery Henry, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Gerard Pique, Carlos Puyol, Yaya Toure, Samuel Eto'o, Victor Valdes, Pedro, David Villa, Eric Abidal, Rafa Marquez, Javier Mascherano...
It was a peak of Spanish talent and football and La Liga in general(Messi vs Ronaldo). Best players in the world played mostly there. They won the World Cup in 2010, and Euros in 2008 and 2012, and Pep was the manager of Barcelona at just a perfect time, it couldn't have been better.
Then he comes to a one team league and joins the team which makes it so(Bayern Munich). Again, around the recent peak of German football, somewhat coincidentally - they've won a World Cup in 2014, lot's of talent was in that squad. Winning the Bundesliga means nothing, he failed in the UCL with Bayern. And they keep winning it(Bundesliga) post Pep.
And then, finally, he joins that state funded Abu Dhabi monstrosity with infinite resources(money, academy, facilities, scouting, recruitment, footballing structure above him - Txiki...). Has an unfair resource advantage over all of his opponents in the league(except maybe Chelsea to some extent thanks to Abramovich and his huge money injections into Chelsea). Creates an unstoppable machine and almost loses the title twice to Klopp's Liverpool with significantly lesser resources. Failes in the UCL for years, even though he had the most expensive squad ever assembled(Transfermarkt says so, at least - they're still first there). He wins it finally this year, but the club gets rightfully charged with 115 breaches of Premier League/FFP rules and everyone with an IQ over 70 knows that they're not innocent. Who really knows what are the real wages of people employed at that club, how much is spent "under the table"? They are bringing a gun to a fistfight and are getting away with it for years - logistical, financial support of a whole oil rich state of UAE, which completely breaks competition. Geopolitical, PR project of a country while other clubs are just "normal" businesses. Although, they're finally getting a rival in Newcastle and Saudis(PIF).
Pep is a great manager, I'm not denying that. But greatest manager of all time? Seriously? I see little evidence of that. I rate Klopp higher than him, based on his achievements with much more limited resources. Don't think he's better than Sir Alex, either.
Barcelona 2008-2012, probably the most talented team ever with GOAT Messi in his prime and the best midfield of all time(Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta). Not even gonna mention all the other talented players he had at his disposal at that time like Dani Alves, Thiery Henry, Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Gerard Pique, Carlos Puyol, Yaya Toure, Samuel Eto'o, Victor Valdes, Pedro, David Villa, Eric Abidal, Rafa Marquez, Javier Mascherano...
It was a peak of Spanish talent and football and La Liga in general(Messi vs Ronaldo). Best players in the world played mostly there. They won the World Cup in 2010, and Euros in 2008 and 2012, and Pep was the manager of Barcelona at just a perfect time, it couldn't have been better.
Then he comes to a one team league and joins the team which makes it so(Bayern Munich). Again, around the recent peak of German football, somewhat coincidentally - they've won a World Cup in 2014, lot's of talent was in that squad. Winning the Bundesliga means nothing, he failed in the UCL with Bayern. And they keep winning it(Bundesliga) post Pep.
And then, finally, he joins that state funded Abu Dhabi monstrosity with infinite resources(money, academy, facilities, scouting, recruitment, footballing structure above him - Txiki...). Has an unfair resource advantage over all of his opponents in the league(except maybe Chelsea to some extent thanks to Abramovich and his huge money injections into Chelsea). Creates an unstoppable machine and almost loses the title twice to Klopp's Liverpool with significantly lesser resources. Failes in the UCL for years, even though he had the most expensive squad ever assembled(Transfermarkt says so, at least - they're still first there). He wins it finally this year, but the club gets rightfully charged with 115 breaches of Premier League/FFP rules and everyone with an IQ over 70 knows that they're not innocent. Who really knows what are the real wages of people employed at that club, how much is spent "under the table"? They are bringing a gun to a fistfight and are getting away with it for years - logistical, financial support of a whole oil rich state of UAE, which completely breaks competition. Geopolitical, PR project of a country while other clubs are just "normal" businesses. Although, they're finally getting a rival in Newcastle and Saudis(PIF).
Pep is a great manager, I'm not denying that. But greatest manager of all time? Seriously? I see little evidence of that. I rate Klopp higher than him, based on his achievements with much more limited resources. Don't think he's better than Sir Alex, either.
Last edited:
Any third rate manager would be able to win the league with Bayern, Klopp would absolutely smash it at any of the aforementioned clubs, he just happened to come along at a time when City look like the best Premier league side ever.
Can't believe this has to be spelt out for some people, but we do have a diverse forum here.
Pep is an excellent manager. Yeah, he spenta shitload of money but he also makes players better.
Akanji was very error prone at Dortmund and he became a starter at City playing a strong season. Same accounts for Ake or Stones.
His strong positional play makes it easy for players to fulfill their tasks. Injuries can be easily compensated as the players from the bench know exactly what they have do.
His teams might miss some spontaneity and creativity but they always play on w very high level and hardly drop points against lower tier clubs.
Akanji was very error prone at Dortmund and he became a starter at City playing a strong season. Same accounts for Ake or Stones.
His strong positional play makes it easy for players to fulfill their tasks. Injuries can be easily compensated as the players from the bench know exactly what they have do.
His teams might miss some spontaneity and creativity but they always play on w very high level and hardly drop points against lower tier clubs.
It's not that impressive, when you consider their ages, how often someone like Aguero was injured, and that Sterling is good but is not a top player.
What I am saying is that this clearly good, but normal for a top side.
Difficult to answer who is best between example Pep, SAF and Ancelotti, but in my opinion Pep is the one who has defined football the most (talking about philosophy or style of play). I think Pep is the most respected and football wise manager ever.
Klopp also won consecutive Bundesliga titles whilst actually having to compete with Bayern and even made a CL final with a team that probably cost as much to assemble as just one of Pep's fullback signings at City.
What happened to the careers of Hart, Sagna Fernando Nasri Bony Kolarov, Zabaleta immediately after City, None could get into a tier 1 club. These are he world class stars he met thereAre you seriously asking this unironically?
When he arrived City had:
Hart, Otamendi, Kompany, Kolarov, Clichy, Zabaleta, Sagna, Fernandinho, Fernando, Delph, Yaya Touré, De Bruyne, Silva, Nasri, Sterling, Aguero, Bony
On that summer he bought:
Bravo, Stones, Gundogan, Nolito, Sané
And on winter:
Jesus
The players you mentioned left City... because City had even better options already in the squad for almost all those players.
Yaya and Clichy obviously didn't get a better club after City because... they were old already.
Otamendi / Kompany / Kolarov / Fernandinho / Yaya Touré / Silva / Sterling / Aguero
This is an almost complete team of players that have been some of the best in the Premier League in the previous seasons.
City not only had these but also a ton of good but not starter material players, several like many I mentioned above.
He not only inherited this already very high quality spine but kept adding more and more players every transfer window and could ditch 40 M€ players in the next window if he wanted to because the club kept buying whatever he wanted.
Komapny was always injured, who in this world considered Otamendi one of EPL best? Yaya was old and left city to Olympiakos where he was fired after 6months, Sterling was considered a joke
Any player with Pep is tagged world class but the moment he leaves the next team downgrade their expectations. Chelsea fans are railing about how useless Sterling is. Same with how mediocre Sane has been for Bayern.
Kompany played only 1 full season for Pep before he retired,
Yaya was already old and no top club took him after
Sterling is only considered top class when he is in City colors, I have heard Chelsea fans wanting him out
The squad he inherited reached the Semi Final of the European Champions League the season before so its not like they were a poor side but the so called Worlds best manager still had to spend 300m+ on new players to to achieve his first success with them.
I will like to see Klopp at Madrid or Bayern and see how he fares there. Plus how long he lasts. Heynckes Del Bosque Carlo were thrown out of those clubs
AC Milan reached the last semi final, Lyon and Leipzig reached recently, Villareal too
That is what pressure in top clubs mean. Naggelsman was on a treble and got fired just because the team had a dip in form, Carlo same thing got fired. DelBosque won 2 CL and 1 league in 3 seasons still got fired. Klopp at Liverpool can go trophyless finish 5th and never have to worry about his job or being questioned
Last edited:
Winning at these clubs is not enough, Klopp has been in Liverpool for 7yrs where he has gone some seasons without a trophy, Bayern in the same time have had 7 coaches who all won the league or something but that wasnt just enough for those type of environments
Even more ironic is that Haaland has been a non-entity in the SF and final.
Doesnt seem like many here know how difficult it is to coach the very best.
That same team finished 4th in the PL with 66 points level on points with 5th place United and got 4th on goal differential. Chelsea won the CL two years ago and look at them since. I'm not sure why some of yous are hung up on City making a SF CL as if that solely speaks about the quality of their team in 2016. I'm too lazy to look but there was a graph that showed City had the 3rd oldest squad in the PL in 2016.
I don't remember those teams having also won 2 of the last 4 league titles or having players like Aguero, Toure, Kompany and David Silva at their disposal plus £300m to spend the following year. At least try to make the comparisons reasonable.
Lyon also only made the semi final because they beat...Pep Guardiola's £1b Manchester City. Now Pep losing against the 7th best French team that season is being used to prop him up. I think I've heard it all now. Wouldn't actually surprise me if some of these posts are paid for by Abu Dhabi or Pep himself.
Yea that's fair, but he didn't come in wanting some of those players, it's not like he just added to them, he replaced some of them.
Oh come on. It's Liverpool. They had won 5 CL titles already and had finished 2nd in the league a year and a half before Klopp joined.
In the modern era, nobody is getting 7 years at Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, PSG, or Chelsea regardless of whether they win the CL or not.
Maybe Zidane could have, who knows