Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

Irrational.

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I think he's got a legitimate argument to be the best coach of all time.

But this argument is a bit pointless on this forum. The answers Sir Alex Ferguson.
 

SalfordRed18

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Will never be the GOAT for me. Needs to do it where he doesn't have all the resources in the world or not in a one team league.

If not with a lesser club, needs a world cup victory. One or the other.
 

Bebestation

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I think he’s probably the most tactically influential manager I’ve seen with my own eyes.

Doesn’t mean he got the best possible results, though he has time to change that.

At the same time I think some of his players are a bit lucky to be managed by him & have been slight overrated from his class ability as a coach.
 

united_99

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Wouldn’t take anything Ballbag says seriously.
But Pep is obviously at least 115 times better than any other manager who has managed in the PL.
At least his Barca time is not tarnished by any illegal actions … oh wait
 

Ibrahimorich

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I'd argue he's the worst coach of all time.

Football is supposed to be entertaining. I don't want to watch football where one team has 87% possession. It's boring. Everyone is copying his style, therefore he's ruined football for everyone.

Therefore he's the worst coach ever. Simple.
 

Sparky_Hughes

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Barca: Had to be corrupt to win a two horse league
Bayern: My left nut could win the league for bayern
City: Had to be involved in corruption enabling him to spend way more than he should have

Not even close. Not fit to lick the sweat from SAFs taint.

Did come up with an effective cure for insomnia though, with that tiki taka wanky shit, Ill give him that.
 

redcafe_reader

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Not in the same level of SAF, Mourinho, Ancelotti, Klopp etc for me.

In my opinion, his Barcelona team is more down to Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquet etc, since they still continue to win CL, La Liga etc after he left. Meanwhile he failed to win a single CL (so far) after he left them. Not to mention the referee drama during his time.

His Bayern term is quite forgettable, compare to Jupp Heynckes or Hansi Flick, who both dominate.

His Man City is strong and may finally win a CL, but they cheat.

He never really did anything extraordinary as a manager in my opinion, for example compare to how many time SAF rebuild his team and still win, or how Mourinho won CL with Porto or Inter, or how Klopp won EPL and CL with Liverpool.
 

Sweet Square

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Will always have Fergie as number 1 because he successfully bridge the gap between two eras of football.

Which is unfair on Pep who only started management in the late 2000’s but well history and life isn’t fair. Tough luck.
 

The holy trinity 68

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The problem is, he's always either managed the best team in the league or the team with the most resources in the league. I don't think he could do what Klopp did at Liverpool for example.

If Sir Alex went to Barca, Bayern and City instead of Pep, then he would have won just as much, but Pep could not have done what Sir Alex did at Aberdeen then rebuild United and continue to do so, while not being able to outspend everyone most years.

With unlimited funds Pep is amazing obviously, but if Barca and City get convicted, then it taints his legacy because he was at both of them clubs when the crimes were committed.
 

Dansk

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Not in the slightest. If he keeps this up for another decade at least, he'll be in consideration for it, but he still has never taken anything less than the strongest squad in a given league and made more of it than the sum of its parts. Since there are other managers who have, and who have also won more overall than he has, it is self-evidently not possible for him to be considered the best manager ever.

Has he won more than anybody else? No.

Has he taken a less-than-top team and elevated it to the top? No.

Has he got a spotless record of legitimacy? Most certainly not.

How is it even possible to posit the argument that he could be the best ever? It's patently absurd. He has done very well, no denying that, but there isn't even one single aspect of his career so far that has not been surpassed by other managers; and until he has shown that he's also able to succeed with something short of the strongest squad that's already favored to win regardless, it's frankly worthy of ridicule to talk of him as the best there ever was.

We're talking about a man who took over Barcelona when they had the strongest team in the history of the sport and did as you would expect of such a thing. He then went to Germany to manage Bayern where winning is essentially guaranteed, but did not succeed in Europe. Then he went to England where he took over a team of cheats who flung money in all directions until nobody else could really compete, and he still has not succeeded in Europe there, either. Even if he does win the CL tomorrow, having not done so since his departure from prime Messi/Xavi/Iniesta eleven years ago, despite having all the means to do so every single year since then, says all that needs to be said about his credentials as a manager. He is by no means bad at his job, but he has never proven that he's more than a man who's good at keeping superstars in line.

How can anyone compare that to someone like SAF who not only proved that he could make miracles happen at Aberdeen, but also elevated United from a position comparable to current-day Tottenham, to two decades of utter dominance, all based not on unlimited funds funneled into the club through dishonest means but by his own sheer credentials as a manager? It isn't possible for a sane person to say that Pep has accomplished more than that. That'd be a declaration of idiocy. Pep will have to continue as he has done for another ten years at least before such a comparison is anything short of laughable, and even then, he has never proven that he can succeed with less than circumstances that already set him up for easy success.

I frankly think that any remotely competent manager would have accomplished all that he has in the route that his career has taken. I'm prepared to say that Klopp has impressed me more, considering the circumstances of what he has had to work with. Nobody can possibly claim that Pep is a bad manager, but I've seen nothing that suggests he has gone above and beyond, and his history of frequent tactical disasters in the CL (which are down to him, personally) says as much about him, if not more, as his domestic titles with teams that were already favored to win regardless of who the manager might have been. It's not as if his transfer record is impressive, either--he has just had so much money at his disposal that his many failures there are irrelevant.

And all of that can be said without even beginning the discussion about the shadow of cheating that has followed his entire career.
 
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Matt007a

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He might be the best coach we've ever seen. The way he elevates players through education and minute detail as well as his incredible influence on how other teams try to play. He is right up there with Michels/Cruyff in the way he has changed football.

As a motivator and a leader of men, he's still very good but he's no where near SAF. Even recently I would say Klopp had a bigger personal influence on his players than Guardiola. There are question marks over whether he could take a lesser team, who simply aren't capable of playing his brand of football and still turn them into winners. The greats like SAF or Clough made players better by sheer force of will and motivation. They made players feel 10 feet tall and would convince them they were world beaters. Those skills allow you to manage any team at any level and still improve them. Guardiola can only do it with a specific type of player.
 
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Ish

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With the resources he's had at his disposal, you'd think he hasn't quite "exceeded" expectations, has he? Not quite in the same way SAF built his dynasty over and over with us (and even before, with Aberdeen), as an example. But very difficult to compare different eras as well. SAF was an all-encompassing "manager" performing multiple roles within the club, whereas Pep is more of a "coach" (if that makes sense).

And this is coming from someone who really likes Pep and wanted him to succeed SAF. But yeah, Pep's up there IMO, especially if we just take "coaching" and how dominant his teams are, into account.
 

Von Mistelroum

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I can't take his achievements as seriously as I can with other managers. I know it's something that people who are bitter say, but it's also got a lot of truth to it. Everywhere he has managed, he's had an advantage.

Barcelona during a time when they already had a great squad and a lot of money to spend (on bribing refs).

Bayern who dominate their league without much of a challenge and could take all the best players from their nearest rival.

City when they are the richest club in the world and can sign anyone for any amount (because much of the sum is off the books).

Don't get me wrong, he's clearly a good manager but it's not possible to say how he would have done with a team who didn't have every advantage. Even if we ignore all of this though, he's no SAF and neither is anyone else.
 

Malkovich

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As much as I hate to admit, I think so, yes.

People are not giving him credit when they say he only had easy jobs. Barcelona wasn't 10% as dominant with Riijkard compared to him.
Also he introduced so many ideas to football, that I think he accelerated the tactical change of football of a process that would take 20 years to like 6 or 7 years. Just my two cents..
 

stefan92

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He did an excellent job for Barca, turning a good but not great team into the best of the world (yes, he could use amazing talent, especially Messi, but he still had to develop and use these players as he did).

However that's the only great job he did, he failed to keep triple winning Bayern sharp for the CL and City as many have said is just a money cheat. Still both require doing a good job to win what he did, but considering City's and Bayern's resources he lacks 3 or 4 CL titles to be considered in a GOAT discussion for me (and even than it would not be a given win for him, that's just what would make him a candidate for me).
 

GeneralKenobi

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He first managed Ref Bribery FC and is now is managing 115 Charges FC.

Is Pep the cheat-est manager of all time?
 

TsuWave

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Probably. He’s making his case and will be thereabouts by the time he calls it quits.
 

redcafe_reader

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People are not giving him credit when they say he only had easy jobs.
It's a fact that he only has easy job.

In Barcelona, the manager after him still did well and won title that he used to win => the squad is super strong.
In Bayern, he only achieved the minimum and Bayern before and after him both win more than with him => there are 2 Bayern's manager that did better than him.
In City, he has an easy job with all the $ and cheating.

Barcelona wasn't 10% as dominant with Riijkard compared to him.
Pep won 2 CL, 3 La Liga title, 3 Supercopa meanwhile Rijkaard won 1 CL, 2 La Liga title and 2 Supercopa. It's wrong and pretty dumb to say Barcelona wasn't as 10% as dominant with Rijkaard compared to Pep.

Remember Pep also has Messi (a literal GOAT of football), Xavi, Iniesta, Busquet etc at their peak.

Also he introduced so many ideas to football, that I think he accelerated the tactical change of football of a process that would take 20 years to like 6 or 7 years. Just my two cents..
I hope you can give some points to prove this, but I am pretty sure you won't.

All his "idea" is only used in a team with the best squad or best money or best cheat.

As much as I hate to admit, I think so, yes.
Given how you bend reality (the 10% stuff) to big up Pep, I don't think you really "hate to admit".
 

stefan92

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Also he introduced so many ideas to football, that I think he accelerated the tactical change of football of a process that would take 20 years to like 6 or 7 years. Just my two cents..
Please be specific, which ideas did he introduce?
 

Red Star One

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Not even the greatest in the history of Barça or Bayern, not the greatest in the history of Manchester. Perhaps he has a slight edge over Ranieri for City.

GOAT bullshitter though, this has to be said
 

Licha M

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The greatest manager among those that wear trampy hoodies to prestigious cup finals yeah.
 

Hugh Jass

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The problem is, he's always either managed the best team in the league or the team with the most resources in the league. I don't think he could do what Klopp did at Liverpool for example.

If Sir Alex went to Barca, Bayern and City instead of Pep, then he would have won just as much, but Pep could not have done what Sir Alex did at Aberdeen then rebuild United and continue to do so, while not being able to outspend everyone most years.

With unlimited funds Pep is amazing obviously, but if Barca and City get convicted, then it taints his legacy because he was at both of them clubs when the crimes were committed.
yea this would be my take.
 

Steve Bruce

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Until he takes over a sleeping giant and builds them into a force like sir Alex did with Aberdeen and United.

It's a bit easier when your going to clubs that have massive finances and good teams to begin with
 

VeevaVee

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Nah. At City he has one single player brought through the academy. Fergie went through multiple generations and made them in to league winners, whether they were quality enough or not.

Pep is an excellent coach but he only matches SAF on some aspects and pales in comparison on others.

People forget just how well we played at our best. We had some meh periods, but the resilience and motivation instilled by SAF usually saw us through until we found form again. You see some of that with City now. That’s where he matches Fergie I think.
 

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He's still 15 trophies behind Sir Alex, so no. His record will also be forever tainted if it turns out the allegations against City are true.
 

The Hilton

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I honestly don't think he's even the greatest manager of right now, I rate Klopp's achievements as more impressive.

Pep did well with Barcelona, but his biggest achievement there, the treble, was recreated 6 years later by Enrique. At Bayern his achievements were just more of the same, winning a one team league, although he couldn't replicate the CL success from the season before he joined. At City he's reached Fergie levels of domestic dominance for the time being, but that's because he walked into a club that had been planning for his arrival for years, and it's still required an obscene budget (and that's only the money on the face of things, rather than the backhanders etc).

In comparison Klopp, with Dortmund and Liverpool, has broken the dominance of clubs with much greater resources.