Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

Taribo's Gap

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Pep might be the GOAT in raising the floor of his teams, which leads to amazing consistency and an amount of league wins that is really unparalleled.

But he lacks a lot in raising the heights of his teams, which Klopp or Mou truly proved to be able to during unexpected CL runs, while Pep more often than not failed against some game raising minnow.
Pep has definitely had his blunders, especially in the Champions League, but to say that he lacks a lot in raising the heights of his teams is a bit curious given that the has created or managed historically great teams. It is one thing to go from mid table or unremarkable team to a winning team, it is another thing altogether to go from a good or title winning team to a historically great dynastic team. Pep's Barca is in the conversation for greatest team ever and his City are in the conversation for greatest premier league team ever. How much higher should he be raising the ceiling?

It seems like when people make claims that other managers could do what Pep did they are merely talking about creating winning teams rather than creating historically great teams. Carlo's Milan were absolutely stacked, for example, but no one is ever mentioning them in greatest ever discussions. You can argue all day about the relative difficulty of going from a middling team to a title winning team versus going from a winning team to a historically great team, but that little extra bit that Pep achieves is tremendously difficult to achieve and should not be conflated with merely "winning", because it is a different level of accomplishment.
 

Hammondo

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This is just so weird. It is taking some value of SAF, and then asking Pep to do it. I mean it makes no sense, but let’s do the reverse.

SAF was a great manager. But can he win a treble before he is 40… I do t think so.

Or can SAF win league titles in three different big leagues? I mean, he probably could have done so, but he would have needed to leave United for it to happen. And there was no reason for him to leave United to please people in the internet. Same for Pep. He probably could do what Unai Emery did 5 times or so, or what some random manager of BVB almost did, or what Ranieri did, but why he should accept a job that is paid 5 times less and has worse players to work with when he could select the club he wants?

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They are very different managers and there is no need for Pep to do for what SAF did (and then a million things that SAF didn’t) for Pep to surpass SAF. Winning with a lesser team in particular makes no sense. If he would be at a lesser team, it is effectively a demotion, so he would have needed to fail at his current job something that he never does. If he leaves City right now, and he is open to a new job, I think every big team (probably not United cause we are weird) would try to get him. So why would he need to go to a lesser team to make happy people in the internet, where big teams that pay more and give a higher chance of success would want him.

For what is worth, I think that things that really matter are: a) number of big trophies won, b) influence in the game, c) how dominant his teams have been.

a) he still lags behind SAF, but it is very likely that when their careers are over, he will be well ahead. He already has 11 big league titles, SAF has 13 (15 if you found Scotland). So Pep would likely need another 2 years to reach the former, and maybe 5 for the latter. While already having more UCLs (and he will likely win more).

b) Pep is the most influential manager since Rinus Michel. Every team now does pass and move, every team presses like crazy, every team plays from the back, every team is focused in the midfield. He pretty much homogenized football from many styles to a style that try to copy what he is doing.

c) dominance in football -> maybe except a few matches in his first season at City, I think he has started every match on his career are favorites. They have been the team to beat in whatever league he was, against whatever team he faced. Dominant big teams had to change tactics and go for some counter attacking football when playing his teams (or look like fools such as SAF’s United or Wenger’s Arsenal). Since I watch football, that has never been the case for any other manager. And yes, quite often they lost matches, in UCL some were particularly shocking (losing against Monaco and Lyon, getting embarrassed 5-0 by Ancelotti’s Madrid), but every big manager had these shocking defeats (SAF couldn’t even reach the KO stage twice in this century).

I think by the end of his career this won’t even be a debate. It will be even less a question than the equally stupid ‘is Messi the best ever player?’
He wasn't favorite in his first season at Barcelona.
 

heraklion

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Also, one needs to consider if the answer to that question would immediately involve Pep and others if it is asked in Italy or Germany, other leading football nations, for example. I am not even sure if Pep is seen No.1 in Spain with Cruyff and others. Also, not sure if Italians or Germans will immediately think of SAF when asked this question.

I think most Germans will think of Hitzfeld, Beckenbauer or Heynckes type of managers first. Or, in case of Italians, they will consider Lippi, Ancelotti, Trapattoni types. I do not think that they will be impressed by the PL wins that much as they have their own memories & leagues which dominated the European football for so long..
 

cpresc

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Fergie also did a pretty incredible job at Aberdeen. I’d say it’s those two up there way ahead of anyone else.

who’s third though?
 

Hammondo

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After a couple of matches, they were. Every team was trying to adjust their tactics to not get humiliated by them.
No team are favorite's after a couple of games when they lost the previous season so badly.
 

Moriarty

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Fergie also did a pretty incredible job at Aberdeen. I’d say it’s those two up there way ahead of anyone else.

who’s third though?
How far back do you want to go? Matt Busby and Jimmy Murphy built a team of youngsters that were on track to winning the European Cup. That team was destroyed. Busby recovered, went on to build a team that would win two league titles, an FA Cup and a European Cup in just ten years.
 

kaiser1

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After a couple of matches, they were. Every team was trying to adjust their tactics to not get humiliated by them.
Barcelona 2008/09

First game lost 1-0 to Numancia
2nd game drew 1-1 to Santander
After matchday 2 they were in 15th position

Yay this team is going to be favourite for this season and in conversation for greatest team of all time

It would be like claiming at this time that Chelsea this season would be favourite for this season
 

adexkola

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Barcelona 2008/09

First game lost 1-0 to Numancia
2nd game drew 1-1 to Santander
After matchday 2 they were in 15th position

Yay this team is going to be favourite for this season and in conversation for greatest team of all time

It would be like claiming at this time that Chelsea this season would be favourite for this season
I keep on upping the amount because no one has taken me up on the offer yet.

Willing to send $300 to anyone who can dig up a post on this forum or elsewhere prior to the start of 2008-09, predicting Pep's success at Barcelona
 

Revan

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Barcelona 2008/09

First game lost 1-0 to Numancia
2nd game drew 1-1 to Santander
After matchday 2 they were in 15th position

Yay this team is going to be favourite for this season and in conversation for greatest team of all time

It would be like claiming at this time that Chelsea this season would be favourite for this season
I think people have misunderstood my post. It was never about how easy Pep had it, in fact I have made posts about how challenging the job was (Ronaldinho and Deco leaving, underwhelming transfer window and a civil war of the club management).

My point was that after a couple of games where Barca started becoming really good, then in every match they were starting as favorites. It became quickly clear how great they are, and other teams had to adjust how to play against them. This was more of a praise how quickly Pep make that team so dominant rather than how easy he had it.
 

Hammondo

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I think people have misunderstood my post. It was never about how easy Pep had it, in fact I have made posts about how challenging the job was (Ronaldinho and Deco leaving, underwhelming transfer window and a civil war of the club management).

My point was that after a couple of games where Barca started becoming really good, then in every match they were starting as favorites. It became quickly clear how great they are, and other teams had to adjust how to play against them. This was more of a praise how quickly Pep make that team so dominant rather than how easy he had it.
It is very difficult to take you seriously when you type stuff like this.
 

Care_de_Bobo

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2007-2008 wasn't an outlier season. It was in line with Barcelona's 2006-2007 season.

In 06-07, Barcelona lost the European Supercup (0-3 agaisnt Sevilla), the FIFA Club World Cup (1-0 against Internacional), and suffered an embarrassing elimination from the Copa del Rey (losing 0-4 at home to Getafe). They were 2nd in their CL group and were eliminated in the R16 by Liverpool. In the league, they finished with 76 points, 6 points behind in the league compared to their previous season (76 to 82).

You can go to the wikipedia entry for that season, and it says:



It is the CL semifinal that is the outlier, and an easily explainable one: they only had to beat Celtic and Schalke to get there.

And hey: I'm not arguing that Barcelona were in some catastrophic situation, that they were reborn from the ashes, anything of the sort. I am correctly disputing the complete nonsense spouted here, that it was the easiest job in the world.

The only explanation I can think of for this bizarre alternate reality is that the CL semifinal of 08 was between Barcelona and United, and it was a pretty narrow win. Maybe that skews people's perspective. Who knows.
This post lost all credibility when you mentioned Seville beating Barca in 2006/07. You realise they signed Dani Alves from that Seville team right? The guy was by far and away their best player and just a genuinely world class talent and man of the match in that very game.

Alves was arguably more important to Barca than Pep in all honesty, has more medals as a player than Pep as a manager with Barca for a start.

Having the best player ever, the best PL player ever, the greatest right back, 2 of the top 6 or 7 African players ever and probably the greatest midfield partnership ever who already had a Euro Championship to their name is a dream for any manager. Pep didn't improve these players significantly, playing with other great players did. It's so easy to see that this is most likely the case when Madrid accumulated all those top players and won 3 CL trophies in a row. It's more likely to be the players being the key ingredient rather than Zidane being some absolute managerial genius.

That Barca team played great football because they had insane talent. Pep was able to keep things simple because he was just essentially copying what he'd learnt from Cruyff but with much better players. They were some of the absolute best of all time and already at this level before Pep started coaching them. It's just so obvious looking at their most recent performances before he arrived.

The more I think about it, the more the guy goes down in my estimations. Mourinho would have won it all with that Barca squad as well, no chance Pep wins a treble with that Porto or Inter squad though. Zero.
 

Swoobs

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This post lost all credibility when you mentioned Seville beating Barca in 2006/07. You realise they signed Dani Alves from that Seville team right? The guy was by far and away their best player and just a genuinely world class talent and man of the match in that very game.

Alves was arguably more important to Barca than Pep in all honesty, has more medals as a player than Pep as a manager with Barca for a start.

Having the best player ever, the best PL player ever, the greatest right back, 2 of the top 6 or 7 African players ever and probably the greatest midfield partnership ever who already had a Euro Championship to their name is a dream for any manager. Pep didn't improve these players significantly, playing with other great players did. It's so easy to see that this is most likely the case when Madrid accumulated all those top players and won 3 CL trophies in a row. It's more likely to be the players being the key ingredient rather than Zidane being some absolute managerial genius.

That Barca team played great football because they had insane talent. Pep was able to keep things simple because he was just essentially copying what he'd learnt from Cruyff but with much better players. They were some of the absolute best of all time and already at this level before Pep started coaching them. It's just so obvious looking at their most recent performances before he arrived.

The more I think about it, the more the guy goes down in my estimations. Mourinho would have won it all with that Barca squad as well, no chance Pep wins a treble with that Porto or Inter squad though. Zero.
Oh please, Mourinho couldnt do it with the City of its day (Chelsea) and Real Madrid who has CR7, Kaka amongst others plus spending huge amount of cash.

He did it with Porto, did it with Inter, couldnt do the CL with Chelsea and Real. He is a tier 2 (in CL terms) club manager, not a tier 1 club’s manager.
 

Gehrman

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Oh please, Mourinho couldnt do it with the City of its day (Chelsea) and Real Madrid who has CR7, Kaka amongst others plus spending huge amount of cash.

He did it with Porto, did it with Inter, couldnt do the CL with Chelsea and Real. He is a tier 2 (in CL terms) club manager, not a tier 1 club’s manager.
Im not sure winning the cl with porto and Inter makes him tier 2 because he failed to do so in his relativity brief stints at Madrid and Chelsea. Applying the same standards to pep after winning 2 cl's with Barca with a goat squad but spending not all that much, it took him 12 years and way over a billion pounds to win another CL. If he was this mythological manager it wouldnt have taken him this long or that much money spent on transfers and salaries under the table.
 

RedRocket9908

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Oh please, Mourinho couldnt do it with the City of its day (Chelsea) and Real Madrid who has CR7, Kaka amongst others plus spending huge amount of cash.

He did it with Porto, did it with Inter, couldnt do the CL with Chelsea and Real. He is a tier 2 (in CL terms) club manager, not a tier 1 club’s manager.
Mourinho may well have won it with Chelsea in 2005 if it hadnt have been for the ghost goal that gave Liverpool a 1-0 win at Anfield in the Semi's.
 

Rojow

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For me it's simple. A good manager will impact the game across Europe and maybe the World. Pep did that. There are several managers who want or have wanted to play like Pep. Clubs and selections. Their impact is clear, unlike others who, although they have obtained results, their influence has not been such.


Nobody wants to play like Mourinho nor is there a guide on how to play for SAF. The latter adapted his game according to the players, which is exceptional, but he did not have the influence of Pep at the European or World level. Not in the field of football itself.
 

The Corinthian

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I keep on upping the amount because no one has taken me up on the offer yet.

Willing to send $300 to anyone who can dig up a post on this forum or elsewhere prior to the start of 2008-09, predicting Pep's success at Barcelona
The Corinthian said:
Just watching Barcelona, whilst thinking about the financial crash, and listening to Low by Flo-Rida.

Can't help but feel we're watching the beginnings of a great team here - Pep might go down as a top manager. I also think they will win the 2009 and 2011 Champions League final at our expense, but that's because they've paid off refs since 2002 but you didn't hear that from me and you won't hear it more widely till 2023.
 

saik

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At around 14mins into the video, this cnut just laughed when asked about us like if it was even a serious question. We truly are a laughing stock now. :lol:
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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To be fair, it was a pretty diplomatic answer. I can't see why people make so much of it. Him describing us as "just a transition team", when we were winning games last season, could have started a debate, but Twitter is more interested in "rub it in your face" moments. And if you're looking for those, there's nothing more humiliating than KdB's honesty after they had trashed us at OT.

Other than that, he's won the game. He approaches these pressers with a mix of tediousness, banality and haughtiness that screams to the infamous British press that their claws can't even scratch him. Klopp is the same, but he's being more aggressive with them.

Fergie also used to play the like a fiddle because he knew he was untouchable. "Noisy neighbours", "wee club in the North" etc., try these yourselves without causing a shitstorm. He could even drive other managers into complete meltdowns.
 

RaddyRed

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The guy is the best manager in the world but he talks so much rubbish. Stating that City winning the CL is incredible when it's really taken longer than it should have with their money spent (not to mention cheating).

He lives in a different world to reality, City should be on 3 or 4 CL titles by now.

My fear is he isn't going anywhere anytime soon, winning lots, can sign any player he wants and no real pressure on him. Great gig for him.
 

AnotherLondonManc

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The guy is the best manager in the world but he talks so much rubbish. Stating that City winning the CL is incredible when it's really taken longer than it should have with their money spent (not to mention cheating).

He lives in a different world to reality, City should be on 3 or 4 CL titles by now.

My fear is he isn't going anywhere anytime soon, winning lots, can sign any player he wants and no real pressure on him. Great gig for him.
Yeah, it's a great gig, but he's only reaping the rewards of his own good work. City were nowhere near this dominant before he took over.

Agreed that City should have a few more CLs at this point given their quality, but it can hardly be used as a stick to beat Pep with when they are the current European champions.
 

Taribo's Gap

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The guy is the best manager in the world but he talks so much rubbish. Stating that City winning the CL is incredible when it's really taken longer than it should have with their money spent (not to mention cheating).

He lives in a different world to reality, City should be on 3 or 4 CL titles by now.

My fear is he isn't going anywhere anytime soon, winning lots, can sign any player he wants and no real pressure on him. Great gig for him.
He's just spent the past few days talking about how City have only won one, compared to many multiples for other clubs. He's been suggesting that in the grand scheme they still haven't achieved anything great and have a lot to prove.

He does talk a lot of rubbish, but not sure this is an example. A good bit of his rubbish falls into the fake humble category. Oh, Madrid have won so many CLs. Oh, Liverpool are mentality monsters. Oh, Arsenal play so nicely. Oh, I would be nothing without the players. It's clear the guy has a raging ego and thinks highly of himself, so this is the kind of self-effacing rubbish can grate because it masks the raging ego bubbling under the surface. Fair enough, he probably does it to help manage the weight of expectations and you probably need a huge ego to win as much as he does. Occasionally the mask slips, like when he started having a go at Berba and Evra and said "...I didn't see this kind of personality when I destroyed them...in Champions League", before quickly correcting himself to "we destroyed them". I wish he would just embrace full villain mode all the time. More enjoyment to be had by all that way.
 

Mark Wuhlberg

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Im not sure winning the cl with porto and Inter makes him tier 2 because he failed to do so in his relativity brief stints at Madrid and Chelsea. Applying the same standards to pep after winning 2 cl's with Barca with a goat squad but spending not all that much, it took him 12 years and way over a billion pounds to win another CL. If he was this mythological manager it wouldnt have taken him this long or that much money spent on transfers and salaries under the table.
How come that goat squad didn't win anything in Europe after Pep left except for a brief period with MSN and Luis Enrique?

Pep's City spent a lot of money but so did their domestic and European rivals. "Salaries under the table" is pure speculation.
 

Gehrman

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How come that goat squad didn't win anything in Europe after Pep left except for a brief period with MSN and Luis Enrique?

Pep's City spent a lot of money but so did their domestic and European rivals. "Salaries under the table" is pure speculation.
Because they appointed mediiocre managers? Apart from Enrique they didnt appoint good managers during the Messi era. Im not disputing Guardiolas claim as one the greatest. I just dont think he is the greatest.
 

RedDevil@84

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The guy is the best manager in the world but he talks so much rubbish
But in a much saner way. He knows he is doing rubbish talk and occasionally delivers it with a cunning smile. That is much better than Klopp who delivers lies and rubbish with so much conviction.
 

Mark Wuhlberg

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Because they appointed mediiocre managers? Apart from Enrique they didnt appoint good managers during the Messi era. Im not disputing Guardiolas claim as one the greatest. I just dont think he is the greatest.
So that means without a top quality manager, even the GOAT or a team of GOATS can't perform the best they can. And even Enrique's Barcelona was nowhere near as good and dominant as Pep's Barca and Pep's City today. You gotta admit that Pep has great managerial skill to bring the best out of players and turn them into a machine.
 

Lord SInister

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Am I the only one who thinks Pep is nowhere as annoying as caf makes him. I think he tries to be funny, sarcastic with self depreciation humor but most of the times he misses then hit. I think he is one of those who thinks if they say they are the best, it will bring bad luck.
 

stefan92

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Am I the only one who thinks Pep is nowhere as annoying as caf makes him. I think he tries to be funny, sarcastic with self depreciation humor but most of the times he misses then hit. I think he is one of those who thinks if they say they are the best, it will bring bad luck.
You are not wrong but I think exactly this failed humor is what annoys a lot of people.
 

KirkDuyt

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Am I the only one who thinks Pep is nowhere as annoying as caf makes him. I think he tries to be funny, sarcastic with self depreciation humor but most of the times he misses then hit. I think he is one of those who thinks if they say they are the best, it will bring bad luck.
I imagine it's safe to say you're not the only one who thinks people on a United forum disproportionally dislike Man City's manager.
 

Vialli_92

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I think he has 3 options when he leaves City, coach a national team most probably Spain. Go back to Barecelona but I think he's too clever to go back as it's almost impossible to do what he did before at Barca and try to replicate that success there. Try coaching a team in Serie A and trying to win the CL with an Italian team.

I would think he would take a 1-2 year break from managing when he's finished at City though, he's a very intense guy and doesn't seem to stop thinking football 24/7.

If he retired tomorrow though, he would go down as the greatest with Fergie no doubt.