Ferguson won the Cup Winners Cup with Aberdeen with a budget of about 42 pence. Beating teams like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich. That's probably his greatest achievement in all honesty.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
- Thread starter Irrational.
- Start date
Tactically he is certainly up there but he's only manged huge clubs with money to burn.
This is something I don't agree with. When he won the treble it was the first time any team won the treble in any the big leagues in Europe. It was, by all measures, a unique achievement. A lot of relatively small sides won has won the Cup Winners' Cup. Undoubtedly a great achievement, but it's not a treble.
Guardiola is a genius. I expect City to drop off for a while after he leaves them. Ferguson was also a genius. Guardiola needs his team to play like robots, Ferguson's players hadmore freedom.
The tiebreaker is Aberdeen and Ferguson bring United back on top of the perch. Guardiola has never taken a struggling team and achieved success. He has only managed dominant teams.
The tiebreaker is Aberdeen and Ferguson bring United back on top of the perch. Guardiola has never taken a struggling team and achieved success. He has only managed dominant teams.
His Bundesliga record is great, but it is a direct continuation of the season before he took over and he never beat that points total (91, his best was 90). Also his best season was 2013/14 - his first one. He maintained the extremely high level Heynckes implemented, which is amazing work (as proven by the failure of his successors to keep that standard), but it wasn't new for Bayern to reach that level.
I am aware of the CL performances as I watched them, so I am also aware that those lost matches/ties are also the reason why people claim Pep would be overthinking such matches and therefore mess up.
I also always held the opinion that SAFs CL record is underwhelming as well.
He’ll be the greatest when he achieves a miracle and wins things with an outside team. Every team he’s managed has been the best in there country or has the best resources available.
The metrics are set by the question in the op: "Is Pep the goat?". There is no double standard because its Pep, I guess nobody doubts his extraordinary status. But talking about goat implies highest metrics, therefore the number of CL wins of post peak Barcelona cannot be the bar to jump over. There's nothing revisionist about that. Pep himself stated often enough that his results on CL level did not meet the expectations, and that he understands and accepts these expectations.
Lance Armstrong scenario too much smoke without fire around pep and his previous drug cheating, the doctor connections, Barcelona paying bribes to the ref.
No doubt his coaching and tactics are best in class. The evidence suggests there is more to the story.
No doubt his coaching and tactics are best in class. The evidence suggests there is more to the story.
For me Pep pips it slightly ahead of Sir Alex and Ancellotti mostly because of how dominant his teams play, he truly is a genius
Don't forget both City and Barca were done for breaching the whereabouts rules for drug testing.
"We er ah changed training times and erm just forgot to tell you"
Celtic, Ajax and PSV did it before Utd?
Not that they are classed as big leagues now, but they were far more competitive in European football back in the day.
Man in warm bath gets hot.
Lets see how he's remembered when he's retired, until then it's SAF for me every time.
Pep is the greatest coach ever (despite the fact he hasnt done it without being at the best club with the biggest budget/infastructure). His teams are dominant unlike anything else I've witnessed, he's tactically innovative and his teams are a well oiled machine.
The greatest manager remains Sir Alex. He did a job that is now split between 3-4 people.
The greatest manager remains Sir Alex. He did a job that is now split between 3-4 people.
This discussion isn't about teams, this is about managers. That's the whole point. City have spent astronomical sums under the same manager with a world class set up and this is the main reason they are successful, not Pep. They won league titles under the likes of Mancini and Pellegrini as well.
Ferguson was winning titles up against City and Chelsea who spent far more money. Pep has never done anything against the odds. As for Ferguson getting knocked out of Europe, it was a completely different time and there wasn't such a big gap between the leagues back then. His success in Europe actually put the PL on the map and made it what it is today. Pep hasn't had to deal with the 5 foreigner rule or Glazernomics.
Also all this nonsense about Pep never having the chance to prove himself against adversity doesn't really wash. He's always taking the easy option and if he actually wanted to prove himself, he could go back to Barca and see if he could coach them back to the top. He couldn't, so he won't. You can't compare what he's done to breaking up the Old Firm with Aberdeen to restoring a sleeping giant back to its former glories.
He took the European champions from 2 seasons ago to another European title, won the Bundesliga 4 Times in a row with former and future CL winners Bayern and then took the multiple PL winning, CL semi final making team to more leagues and a CL win 7 years and £1b later. It's hardly the stuff of fairy tales is it.
Yes, I know. Feel free to disagree, but I can't really see how the treble isn't Ferguson's biggest achievement.
Most definitely is, it was the culmination of over a decade of incredible work.
2008 was so so close too, still have no idea how Portsmouth survived the onslaught and won that game.
They really didn't. I still remember the derision people gave his squad, right here on RedCafe. Silva, Aguero Ederson were good and Kompany. Sterling was laughed at here, I still remember those posts. He played the entire season with Delph as LB.
City are cheats and deserve relegation but let's not re-write history. Since that win yeah they have managed to have the best squad, stockpiling every position. But his first 2 seasons were not it. Most of those players were gone very soon barring Aguero, Kompany Silva.
For me the issue is we can easily apply the same standards to Messi and conclude that he is not the best of all time (only won 1 WC and 1 Copa with Argentina, "only" won 3 CLs) but I suspect many people here would not accept that.
Because you can only judge a player by his individual performance and the circumstances. I think with a manager it certainly applies that they arent controlling the players with puppet strings and there are fine margins, but usually the manager is the one with the greatest influence on the team. In terms of circumstances Pep has had the best and that's obviously to down to his instant succes at Barca.
Messi still won 4 CL's btw. He just didnt feature much in the first because of injuries.
Of course they did. You might want to have a look at the other squads in England in 15/16. It wasn't as strong as later squads, but it was still easily better than any other English team.
You also conveniently left out KDB, Toure, Fernandinho and Nasri who would have walked into any other team in the country and the fact that they pinched both Arsenal full backs weakening a rival in the process. The Delph myth needs to die as well, he was a squad player and under Pep made 7, 22 and 11 league appearances in his 3 seasons.
I don't get the need to make up so many reasons to defend this guy on a United forum. I just don't understand what he's done that is so impressive. He raises the level of already very good teams ever so slightly, or not at all.
I'm still waiting for someone to point out something he's achieved that was extraordinary and didn't rely on having a vastly superior squad to all of the opposition. Playing Delph at left back for a few games doesn't make the guy a genius, so can we stop mentioning this. You'd think no other manager had changed a player's position before.
So before his Barcelona stint you expected them to be one of the greatest and most dominant club sides of all time? And before his City run you expected them to have one of the most dominant runs in English football history?
If so, you must be a visionary or are engaging in hindsight bias because those expectations were far from the consensus when he took those jobs.
Raising the level of a team from good to great is difficult. But raising the level from great to historically great is also incredibly difficult. Neither Barca nor City were even "great" teams before he took over; Bayern were. At those rarified levels each incremental improvement is that much more difficult to achieve. Look at another recent great, Carlo's AC Milan squad. Absolutely incredible team, but no one is putting them in those conversations.
+1
Pep is not worth to shine Sir Alex's shoes. Revolutionized my ass.
I would like to see Pep go into a struggling team and make them dominate for decades on shoestring budgets, instead of winning when you have Messi, Xavi, and Iniesta or when you van buy whomever you want at Man City.
Maintaining those "circumstances" is not a given though. You have to perform in those high pressure jobs in order to maintain those favorable circumstances or they boot you out. Sometimes even when you do perform, you still leave because of the play style/pressure/politics etc. If, due to his own work, he was able to create and sustain the conditions for those circumstances, why should it be held against him? It's not a given.
Im not on the side saying Pep is a bald-fraud. Im just hesitant to give him the moniker as the greatest manager of all time. He's been in absolutely ideal circumstances to maintain succes though. Could he have enjoyed the succes Fergie had under the glazers with owners who were leechers instead of a being backed by a state? And seeing off Chelsea and City in those circumstances.
Of course its conjecture, but many of the other candidates have shown their mettle in less than ideal circumstances.
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He is one of the greatest coaches, but not managers. Ferguson combined numerous roles that are common in big clubs these days, and had full authority of the entirety of football operations at the club. From talking to the families of academy players, travelling to scout potential new signings, to man management, coaching and tactics, he did it all to the highest of levels over a period of over two decades, winning everything (multiple times) in the process. No one comes close as a manager
Delph played the entire season as LB. This easily best squad in England as per you just lost the title to Lester months before Pep arrived.
This is the difference between him and Pelligrini and Mancini. Especially since according to you City had the best team then, just a few months before Pep arrived yet lost the title to Lester. Mancini and Pelliginri can guarantee you a title 70 percent. Pep will win it almost everytime.Pretty simple point to grasp.
If city had Pelligrini and Mancini sure they'd win as well but you don't have to be extraordinary to beat them. Regardless of how much money they had. Those seasons where Liverpool lost despite scoring 97 points would have been winners if not for Pep. The constant doom we have of even slipping a draw is due to Pep..the day he fecks off the league will be more competitive though ofcourse City still being cheats
This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. Quality of a manager matters. You give Fergie the money ETH has pissed away he'd win you another treble and 2 3 CLs. Leicester winning would not have happened if Pep was a manager then. Nor it was the best squad. Chelsea won it the following season and since then it's been one way traffic. Which would not have happen under Pellgrini or Mancini ie these ridiculous long runs of winning or insane points. Klppp would have wiped the floor with them. Only City under Pep amassing insane amounts has stopped Klppp from another 2 titles.
Been whinging about fixture congestion again I see.
He definitely has it tougher than most.
So so tough.
He definitely has it tougher than most.
So so tough.
Behave. The Abu Dhabi investment fund didn't get him all the toys he wanted
City was in CL semifinal and finished that season 16 points above Chelsea... In Pep‘s first season Chelsea (who also had a new coach) won the league 15 points ahead of City…Delph played the entire season as LB. This easily best squad in England as per you just lost the title to Lester months before Pep arrived.
Pretty simple point to grasp.
It is true that Pellegrini underperformed massively (in the league that year) but they had the better squad and they were already playing good football.
Mancini took a team with zero knowledge of the high level and had to build a title challenge out of money, it is not comparable to Pep who took a City squad that already won multiple league titles (already had Silva, KDB, Aguero) and he got even more money to spend…
Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying Mancini or Pellegrini are better coaches than Pep. Of course they are not. But they did lay the foundations and he got to the opportunity to improve a (cheating) “healthy well run” club with a great squad and unlimited money…
Nobody is comparable to Pep other than SAF in the Premier League history with 5 league titles in 6 years, a treble, a domestic treble, 4 Carabao Cup, 2 FA Cup (on the way to 3rd), all in 6 years with below records.
Most goals scored in a season (all competitions)
Most goals scored in a Premier League season
Most goals scored in a Premier League calendar year
Most points in a league season
Most league wins in a season
Most league wins in a calendar year
Most away league wins in a calendar year
Most away league wins in a season
Fewest league goals conceded in a season
Fewest league defeats in a season
Longest league unbeaten run
Longest league unbeaten away run
Longest league unbeaten home run
Anyone can be in a semi final of a knockout competition.
Coventry was within inches of being in a final, Does not make them a better team than Liverpool or Arsenal
Dortmund is in the semi final of the CL and are currently 5th in Bundesliga
Pointing to a CL semi final run is not evidence of the strength of their team vs others in Europe or in the league. Being 4th tied on point in a 38 game marathon where you play everyone home and away is a better pointer to where their squad stands
That Man City of Pellegrini was the 16th oldest squad in the league
Let's not forget Pep was a convicted drugs cheat, he wasn't just taking a little bit of something either. He was taking one of the most powerful injectable anabolic steroids on the market in Nandrolone. Then there's the whole blood bags being destroyed for the spanish national team so they couldn't be tested - the majority of which played for Barcelona at the time. There can be no doubt Pep's teams are drugged to the nines.
The only thing you contradict is semifinal of CL being meaningful/meaninglessness, so I take it you agree with the rest of my post…
Pep is one of the greatest of all time. He has done it with different teams and he has apparently 38 top flight trophies. Definitely the best of his generation. It's difficult to evaluate across different eras. No doubt Ferguson was the best of his time.
Pep is still young in manager years. If he wins another 5-7 PL titles like he is on track to
... I'd be more in line to start considering him the best ever.
It's a shame his club is cheating City. That takes some shine off of it.
Pep is still young in manager years. If he wins another 5-7 PL titles like he is on track to
... I'd be more in line to start considering him the best ever.
It's a shame his club is cheating City. That takes some shine off of it.
No.
The team of Mancini had several winners. Tevez, Clichy, Aguero Yaya Dzeko D.Silva, Zabaleta, Kompany DeJong, Kolarov, Balotelli etc
Many of these players have played the CL at previous clubs some won CL titles, leagues, domestic cups so its incorrect to say they had zero knowledge of high level football
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I think he's probably the best ever. His total dominance of the pitch is unique - I've never seen any team or manager get close to playing the way his teams have played. I've always thought his teams lacked a brutal cutting edge (Haaland probably isn't the guy for him - a RvP or Benzema would be more effective), but that's probably because they have to sacrifice a little of that aggression for control... Clearly he's found a dominant balance.
I've enjoyed watching other teams more, but I reckon Pep's come closest to "solving" football. And year after year....I wish I had 10% of the drive he has.
I've enjoyed watching other teams more, but I reckon Pep's come closest to "solving" football. And year after year....I wish I had 10% of the drive he has.
What is the criteria for 'The greatest Manager of all time?'. Sir Matt Busby built a team of youngsters with bugger all money. He survived a tragedy and built another team that went on to be the first English club to win the European Cup. He had arguably the top three players of their day in England, two he nurtured (Best and Sir Bobby) and he bought one (Denis Law). He apparently would take the team for a walk around the heavily industrialised Trafford Park to remind the players of their responsibility to the fans.
Wenger brought another type of view on the game in the with tactics and diet. He produced a team that went a whole season without losing a game. Much as it grieves me, he has to be in the frame.
None can compare to SAF given his longevity, aura and Management skills. His record speaks for itself. He won stuff despite the Glazers stealing money from the club. He stood for no nonsense with the players and would show that he was the Boss. Kyle Walker would have been sold after his flashing incident no matter how good he was as would Rashford after his piss up in Belfast. That's how to manage a team. No individual takes priority which is how SAF built several winning teams over the years including the first English team to win a proper treble.
He did have access to funds but nothing like Guardiola has at the three clubs he's managed. City have won many titles and cups based on breaking the rules early on and building a firm foundation by buying a number of great players with dodgy money. If Guardiola went to say Preston North End and won the PL, that would prove him the best. Right now he's the best with all the resources in the World to play with but he still signs some duff players. Kalvin Phillips for one.
Shankly has to be considered also, but SAF is the one for me. Football has become like Poker, the one with the biggest pot usually wins.
Wenger brought another type of view on the game in the with tactics and diet. He produced a team that went a whole season without losing a game. Much as it grieves me, he has to be in the frame.
None can compare to SAF given his longevity, aura and Management skills. His record speaks for itself. He won stuff despite the Glazers stealing money from the club. He stood for no nonsense with the players and would show that he was the Boss. Kyle Walker would have been sold after his flashing incident no matter how good he was as would Rashford after his piss up in Belfast. That's how to manage a team. No individual takes priority which is how SAF built several winning teams over the years including the first English team to win a proper treble.
He did have access to funds but nothing like Guardiola has at the three clubs he's managed. City have won many titles and cups based on breaking the rules early on and building a firm foundation by buying a number of great players with dodgy money. If Guardiola went to say Preston North End and won the PL, that would prove him the best. Right now he's the best with all the resources in the World to play with but he still signs some duff players. Kalvin Phillips for one.
Shankly has to be considered also, but SAF is the one for me. Football has become like Poker, the one with the biggest pot usually wins.