Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

[ScholesyTheWise]

I mean, if he has an unlimited budget to try and try until he gets it right, then its pretty effective football.

I still think Klopp does it better under similar conditions (getting signings right).

re: Klopp,

It would have been interesting to see who he'd fare in a scenario when he starts a season as a clear favorite to win all trophies, seeing as he has the most money and the best squad to go to war with.

Won't happen as he seems to be really 'romantic' and does not choose jobs that give him huge advantages... but still interesting to imagine.

 

[croadyman]

I don't trust my memory enough to be sure,

but aside from that story (made up or not) that Pep didn't understand Fergie's English when the latter asked him to replace him-

wasn't it documented that Pep made it clear that for him to come over, the entire footballing side of the club had to be restructured, or something like that?

Glazers would never have sanctioned it / recruited apt personnel for it.

So it's not only about how quickly you react.
Also about what you're willing to do to accommodate someone into your organization.

Yeah the leeches would never have sanctioned

 

[Escobar]

What says yes are his trophies, what says no is financial doping like no other

 

[PepG]

Pep is the best coach in the world for the last 14 years.. And for the all time?! Who cares..

 

[kafta]

Honestly he is an amazing manager. I think this year in particular, he gets a lot of credit.
He is the best manager in the last 14 years. I still think klopp can do more with less. And pep has had everything in his favor.

But to answer the question, no. I’m not a neutral, but I don’t think he has shit on Sir Alex. If you take away the bundesligas, there is still some gap between the two. And just comparing their managerial CVs doesn’t do sir Alex justice. The team rebuilding over 30 years separates sir Alex.

 

[Libero_of_Yore]

Was I hallucinating when I saw Iniesta create the first goal in the 2009 final and Messi score the second? And I recall all three played in 2011. Or were all three heading for a career at Stoke with Tony Pulis before Pep the magician magically turned their careers around?

Was Andres Iniesta considered world class when Pep took over in 2008?

 

[kafta]

But could Klopp do more with more or is he suited to less.

It’s a fair question and one I don’t think we’ll see answered. He doesn’t seem to be the type to want to manage the bigger clubs like Madrid or Bayern etc. My opinion is that no, he’s not suited to it. But what he has gotten from his Liverpool team has been some
Job. What would you say?

 

[dal]

Whats crazy is since 2017 our net spend on transfers is almost £300 million more than Man City and our total spend is £3 million more.

Tells a very painful story, we are so incredibly shit that we spend more than supposed oil cheats but still can't compete.

 

[Telsim]

Yes. There's just no debate.

 

[Libero_of_Yore]

Whats crazy is since 2017 our net spend on transfers is almost £300 million more than Man City and our total spend is £3 million more.

Tells a very painful story, we are so incredibly shit that we spend more than supposed oil cheats but still can't compete.

Ooh, don't say that. Please follow the narrative that Pep has spent billions more than every one else. I mean Chelsea just spent 600 million in just 2 windows. Stick to the script, Pep is a fraud.

 

[ScholesyTheWise]

Whats crazy is since 2017 our net spend on transfers is almost £300 million more than Man City and our total spend is £3 million more.

Tells a very painful story, we are so incredibly shit that we spend more than supposed oil cheats but still can't compete.

Seems from this thread that you think more highly of Pep than many here, and that you're miffed about people just belittling his brilliance because of his career choices. Both stances are fair.

But there's this and there's questioning the fact that Man City have been cheating (not only financially doping) their way to success.
Can you really argue the fact that they have sponsors that don't exist, as a tiny example?

This has nothing to do with Pep and his brilliance as a coach/manager.

That they cheat should be a fact in any discussion about them. One cares more about it, one less so, one doesn't at all. All fine.
Whether it's proven in court is a different matter.

 

[Bearded One]

I mean, if he has an unlimited budget to try and try until he gets it right, then its pretty effective football.

I still think Klopp does it better under similar conditions (getting signings right).

Many of us thought Pochettino was the next best thing when he led Spurs and Southampton. His real test came in hen he had to lead PSG.

 

[Biggins]

Pep is one of the best for sure but our SAF still remains the GOAT.

 

[mandroid]

'Is pep greatest manager of all time?' is as irrelevant as ' Is messi the GOAT?'. All evidences point to affirmative for both these questions. Debate is only in minds of fans of some rival clubs. For rest, there is no doubt.

 

[Traub]

Whats crazy is since 2017 our net spend on transfers is almost £300 million more than Man City and our total spend is £3 million more.

Tells a very painful story, we are so incredibly shit that we spend more than supposed oil cheats but still can't compete.

A fortune of their salary spend is off the books, so it’s not a fair comparison. It’s much easier to have world class players ready to come off the bench when they’re being paid insane amounts.

 

[mikeyt]

Pep is a great coach given his influence on the modern game. However greatest manager is a different debate altogether.

Look at SAF who completely changed the way our club was run from the ground up. Pep has walked into ready made top tier clubs with top players, loads of money and a very good infrastructure. I'd argue average managers would have won a lot of what he has at the clubs he's been at.

If he proves he can do it at a mid-table club like Palace, get them playing that way and winning then I'd change my view, but until then I'm not having he's the greatest.

 

[cheekybackheel]

Whats crazy is since 2017 our net spend on transfers is almost £300 million more than Man City and our total spend is £3 million more.

Tells a very painful story, we are so incredibly shit that we spend more than supposed oil cheats but still can't compete.

If you look at it on paper, yes it looks like that.

But you're forgetting the 115 FFP illegal payments being made underhand. Take that into account and you're looking at a lot more money spent.

And in terms of the OP. No, Pep isn't the greatest manager of all time. Everywhere he's gone he's had the perfect setup already in place. When Fergie took over it was nothing like what Peps ever faced, especially financially.
What Fergie did over 20yrs, constantly building winning teams, I don't think Pep could have done. Peps a very good manager, no doubt, probably the best right now. But best of all time? Not a chance.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Yes. There's just no debate.

I mean there clearly is considering most people don’t agree.

 

[slored1]

I think he is the greatest. He built an incredible system that brings the best out of the best players. Of course he would not be good in a smaller club, but he's the best at the highest level.

 

[ants7]

Pep is a great coach given his influence on the modern game. However greatest manager is a different debate altogether.

Look at SAF who completely changed the way our club was run from the ground up. Pep has walked into ready made top tier clubs with top players, loads of money and a very good infrastructure. I'd argue average managers would have won a lot of what he has at the clubs he's been at.

If he proves he can do it at a mid-table club like Palace, get them playing that way and winning then I'd change my view, but until then I'm not having he's the greatest.

Yep, pretty much my thoughts on that matter.

 

[Jim Beam]

Impressively shit performance last night in big game (again). A very thin line between the greatest ever and the biggest bottler in CL ever narrative.

For just one game and 90 minutes am picking some other managers. For building the club from the ground up am picking a different man. Purely in terms of coaching he is up there, but overall not for me.

 

[Skills]

I think he's just missing a World Cup from his cabinet.

 

[JagUTD]

When he leads Luton to European glory, I'll consider it. For a moment and still say no.

 

[kaiser1]

re: Klopp,

It would have been interesting to see who he'd fare in a scenario when he starts a season as a clear favorite to win all trophies, seeing as he has the most money and the best squad to go to war with.

Won't happen as he seems to be really 'romantic' and does not choose jobs that give him huge advantages... but still interesting to imagine.

Which means Klopp has never had a job where he is under constant pressure to win

He can finish trophyless and just be like shiitt happens

Klopp deliberately avoid clubs whose standards are high

Let him try out at Bayern where winning the league is seen as failure

At a big club you have to win, win by scoring plenty goals win by playing a certain style, while making the management happy and deal with entitled fans not the fans that will sing rendition and clap when you just lost a derby by 5 goals because you are always the perpetual underdog

Coaching an underdog is the easiest job ever cos you always win the "If only I had more money" argument. We saw how that panned out for Potter and many coaches

 

[GuybrushThreepwood]

Pure fantasy. United weren’t the highest spenders during the 90s and rarely spent more than league rivals year on year. English clubs could not match many Europeans sides for wages and transfer fees either. In Europe in particular United were underdogs for most of the 90s. With English club banned from Europe in the late 80s as well it took years for United to get to the right level in the Champions League. That is why there is romance to his and United’s achievements, alongside the pool of youth players. To proclaim that Sir Alex had the financial advantage that Pep has with City is complete nonsense. He even had to ask for his salary to match George Graham, that’s how tight Martin Edwards was as an owner.

Liverpool had a higher net and gross spend on transfer fees than Utd during Fergie's reign, despite Utd's far higher revenues. Even on the assumption that Utd had a higher wage bill than Liverpool during most of that time (I have seen any relevant figures there so I'm just guessing), I'd wager that Utd's wage bill / turnover % would have been noticeably lower.

Regarding Guardiola, he doesn't have 'underdog' achievements on his CV like Fergie (winning 3 league titles and a major European trophy beating Bayern and Real Madrid with Aberdeen) or Mourinho (excellent work with Leiria with barely a cent to spend and major European trophies in back to back seasons with Porto).

But his success extends far beyond trophies won in terms of his overall influence on the game. I think it's a safe bet that while Guardiola's legacy will be remembered for a long-time after he has retired.

Also for the likes of Guardiola and Ancelotti, enjoying legendary managerial careers on back of very successful and trophy laden playing careers, must be incredibly special.

 

[Jim Beam]

Pure fantasy. United weren’t the highest spenders during the 90s and rarely spent more than league rivals year on year. English clubs could not match many Europeans sides for wages and transfer fees either. In Europe in particular United were underdogs for most of the 90s. With English club banned from Europe in the late 80s as well it took years for United to get to the right level in the Champions League. That is why there is romance to his and United’s achievements, alongside the pool of youth players. To proclaim that Sir Alex had the financial advantage that Pep has with City is complete nonsense. He even had to ask for his salary to match George Graham, that’s how tight Martin Edwards was as an owner.

Thank you. It will get lost in bunch of nonsense, but this post should be pinned at the top.

 

[That_Bloke]

Trying to rub salt in to friendly posters like @Scarlett Dracarys on a forum that’s welcomed you as an oppo fan…?

Your own team has been relegated to the Championship and is currently being picked apart by PL teams who are free to pick and choose your best players, and you’re on here, trying to WUM a welcoming fanbase of a team who finished 3rd and won a trophy!?

You should apologise mate, or at least go and take a breather.

Yeah, I admit that it was a bit of wumming. Couldn't help myself and I apologize for that.

 

[2mufc0]

Liverpool had a higher net and gross spend on transfer fees than Utd during Fergie's reign, despite Utd's far higher revenues. Even on the assumption that Utd had a higher wage bill than Liverpool during most of that time (I have seen any relevant figures there so I'm just guessing), I'd wager that Utd's wage bill / turnover % would have been noticeably lower.

Regarding Guardiola, he doesn't have 'underdog' achievements on his CV like Fergie (winning 3 league titles and a major European trophy beating Bayern and Real Madrid with Aberdeen) or Mourinho (excellent work with Leiria with barely a cent to spend and major European trophies in back to back seasons with Porto).

But his success extends far beyond trophies won in terms of his overall influence on the game. I think it's a safe bet that while Guardiola's legacy will be remembered for a long-time after he has retired.

Also for the likes of Guardiola and Ancelotti, enjoying legendary managerial careers on back of very successful and trophy laden playing careers, must be incredibly special.

Pep is a creative manager for sure but he's not the creator of the style of football/philosophy he employs. He took what Johan Cruyff and the Dutch total football philosophy and built on it. I do believe the level of impact he has had on the game is overblown.

I do think there have been a number of managers in history that have had a much bigger impact on football on and off the pitch.

 

[2mufc0]

Liverpool had a higher net and gross spend on transfer fees than Utd during Fergie's reign, despite Utd's far higher revenues. Even on the assumption that Utd had a higher wage bill than Liverpool during most of that time (I have seen any relevant figures there so I'm just guessing), I'd wager that Utd's wage bill / turnover % would have been noticeably lower.

Regarding Guardiola, he doesn't have 'underdog' achievements on his CV like Fergie (winning 3 league titles and a major European trophy beating Bayern and Real Madrid with Aberdeen) or Mourinho (excellent work with Leiria with barely a cent to spend and major European trophies in back to back seasons with Porto).

But his success extends far beyond trophies won in terms of his overall influence on the game. I think it's a safe bet that while Guardiola's legacy will be remembered for a long-time after he has retired.

Also for the likes of Guardiola and Ancelotti, enjoying legendary managerial careers on back of very successful and trophy laden playing careers, must be incredibly special.

Give Pep old Giggs, Fletcher, Carrick (the only proper midfielder), Anderson and Park as his first choice midfielders and let's see if he wins a league title.

 

[klsv]

He's the best of all time for the No Place for Morals and Politics in Football™ crowd. For the rest, not so much.

 

[JJ12]

He’s the best coach in the world - really hard to compare eras though as the game has evolved massively.

 

[Brianschoccysurprise]

Its not a binary choice between Pep & Ferguson. They are both GOATs. I think 08 utd is better than 23 City though.

.

 

[That_Bloke]

Leicester fekin city fan wumming here.

Well, it's the football forum, not the MU one.

 

[Red the Bear]

Boils my blood knowing Fergie only got to win it twice.

 

[Mr.Fantastic]

Among top managers of modern era. Claiming the best ever, especially after y-day when his entire "groundbreaking influence, and magical tactical approach" was trembling on the side-line while watching Inter`s forwards being absolute shit... Well...

 

[Treble]

Guardiola will go down as one of the greatest ever. What's unique about him is that he is a winning machine like Fergie and a visionary like Michels. Fergie won lots of trophies but didn't change football. Michels changed football but didn't win many trophies. Guardiola has done both.

Guardiola is a winning machine second to none. He's the only manager to win 3 consecutive titles in 3 of the top leagues in Europe. If you think it's easy try to imagine Fergie coaching players in Spanish and then in German. Guardiola can speak and coach in 4-5 languages...Guardiola's the only manager to win two proper Trebles, and he did it with different clubs in different countries. To boot he's the only manager to win the domestic Treble in England. He has had better resources? Remember he won 100 pts and broke all league records with Delph at LB and Otamendi as his best defender. Most United fans would have only 3-4 from his current players in United's starting XI in 99 or 08. It's not like United hadn't great players on the bench in the CL final in 2009, the squad was fantastic.

Plus, Guardiola has revolutionised football. Neither Fergie nor Klopp nor Mourinho nor Ancelotti come close in that regard. His influence on the game is profound. Whereas the likes of Klopp change clubs, Pep changes football itself. Football before Guardiola and football after Guardiola are two different things. You can say that only about 3-4 managers in the history of the game.

 

[2mufc0]

Plus, Guardiola has revolutionised football. Neither Fergie nor Klopp nor Mourinho nor Ancelotti come close in that regard. His influence on the game is profound. Whereas the likes of Klopp change clubs, Pep changes football itself. Football before Guardiola and football after Guardiola are two different things. You can say that only about 3-4 managers in the history of the game.

Yeah only if you started watching football in 2009.

 

[kaiser1]

Guardiola will go down as one of the greatest ever. What's unique about him is that he is a winning machine like Fergie and a visionary like Michels. Fergie won lots of trophies but didn't change football. Michels changed football but didn't win many trophies. Guardiola has done both.

Guardiola is a winning machine second to none. He's the only manager to win 3 consecutive titles in 3 of the top leagues in Europe. If you think it's easy try to imagine Fergie coaching players in Spanish and then in German. Guardiola can speak and coach in 4-5 languages...Guardiola's the only manager to win two proper Trebles, and he did it with different clubs in different countries. To boot he's the only manager to win the domestic Treble in England. He has had better resources? Remember he won 100 pts and broke all league records with Delph at LB and Otamendi as his best defender. Most United fans would have only 3-4 from his current players in United's starting XI in 99 or 08. It's not like United hadn't great players on the bench in the CL final in 2009, the squad was fantastic.

Plus, Guardiola has revolutionised football. Neither Fergie nor Klopp nor Mourinho nor Ancelotti come close in that regard. His influence on the game is profound. Whereas the likes of Klopp change clubs, Pep changes football itself. Football before Guardiola and football after Guardiola are two different things. You can say that only about 3-4 managers in the history of the game.

Well said

The defence that broke the league record was Walker Stones Otamendi Delph
The defence that won the treble was
Stones Akanji Dias Ake

I will say only Walker and Dias would have been unanimous picks by most fan bases before joining City. The other 6 were either derided or not even rated

 

[DeGea]

It is not the victories that make him great, it is the way he coaches. And transforms average players into much better players, again and again. His understanding of when to let players go (Sane, Cancelo etc) when others would not.

The way he challenges himself every season to do it differently, changing formations etc - I mean Stones in midfield WTF? I used to recall how bad he was, at centre half. No one talks about that now.

He is the modern day SAF, on steroids. SAF operated in a different era, apart from Wenger he did not really have that much of a competition, no one else was close to his level. And we were far more dominant financially as well. Jose came to the league towards the end of course.

Pep has had Klopp, Ten Hag, Tuchel, Poch, De Zerbi just to name a few. And he is operating in an era where it is more competitive, the players are fitter, more skilful, the skill gap between players in different clubs is smaller, tactical scrutiny is high with all the online analysis/media etc.

As unpalatable as that sounds, I think he is the greatest. Just.

 

[Jeffthered]

A brilliant manager yes, brilliant and he does carry himself v well. A credit to the game and he definitely has moved the dial.

But greatest ever?

What sets the likes of Clough and SAF aside is that they achieved incredible things with smaller clubs. SAF's Aberdeen, yes Aberdeen, side also changed much across domestic football. Clough took Nottingham Forest, think about that, Nottingham Forest to league titles and TWO,TWO European Cup wins.

Succeeeding, consistently with relatively small teams (when considering the real football powerhouses..) is where I judge a manager. Would like to see Pep win something with a mid-table club, over a number of seasons.

Klopp is also an outstanding manager who proved that Pep's way is not 'the' way..

The BBC sicken me. Bunch of weak, pathetic presenters and writers who have lived up Pep's rear for years.