Is Ramos the most overrated CB in history?

GatoLoco

Full Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2018
Messages
681
Supports
Real Madrid
Madrid going from 2008 to 2020 conceding more goals than Barcelona in every single league season is definitely a bad look even taking into account how attacking they were.

How do people rate Pepe by the way? I think at his best he was better than Varane and there were quite a few seasons where he outperformed Ramos but it feels like he won't remembered anywhere near as much. He was the starter for both the 2014 and 2016 Champions Leagues while Varane was the starter for 2017 and 2018.
One of the best CBs I have seen in my life. Strong in the air, quick, powerful. Very underrated, partly because of that Casquero action and the odd short-circuit mainly before Ancelotti was named coach.
 

Madridista2000

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 6, 2017
Messages
27
Supports
Real Madrid
Remember the memes after Ramos sent a penalty in the semis against Bayern to orbit? He was made fun of but these days he is the best penalty taker in world football.

Regarding his defensive skills. If he played for Milan like Nesta or Maldini or another organized defensive team no one would question him. It's another thing to play for a team like Real Madrid where all focus is on attack and a lot of time the defenders are left isolated to save the whole team. Ramos has done a great job at RM. I am not sure many of the other great defenders would survive in a team like RM. A good example is Walter Samuel. He was known as one of the best central defenders at Roma, but failed totally in Real Madrid were he was mostly left to himself to defend. After 1 bad season at Real Madrid he went to Inter and continued being one of the best central defenders. Among other things he won treble with Inter.
 

diarm

Full Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2014
Messages
10,825
Location
Cork
Don't need to, facts are facts.
The same facts that say Van Dijk is the lynchpin at the heart of a defence that has conceded the fewest goals in any of Europes top 5 leagues this season? The facts that have him as the first choice centre back of a side that has pissed the premier league, probably finishing up with the highest number of points ever recorded on the back of winning last years European Cup?

Those same facts say he's the most overrated CB in history?
 

Righteous Steps

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
855
Remember the memes after Ramos sent a penalty in the semis against Bayern to orbit? He was made fun of but these days he is the best penalty taker in world football.

Regarding his defensive skills. If he played for Milan like Nesta or Maldini or another organized defensive team no one would question him. It's another thing to play for a team like Real Madrid where all focus is on attack and a lot of time the defenders are left isolated to save the whole team. Ramos has done a great job at RM. I am not sure many of the other great defenders would survive in a team like RM. A good example is Walter Samuel. He was known as one of the best central defenders at Roma, but failed totally in Real Madrid were he was mostly left to himself to defend. After 1 bad season at Real Madrid he went to Inter and continued being one of the best central defenders. Among other things he won treble with Inter.
This is what Pique Laporte and VVD have had to go through though.... Many a time part of teams where they are pushed way into the opponents half with only their cb partner has company.
 

Raees

Legal Guardian of the Football forums
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
28,246

@harms @Gio @Enigma_87 discussed their top 10 Attacking centre backs and whilst Ramos didn’t win.. he did feature in the top 10 alongside some truly stellar names.

I think to just look at him as a pure defender defeats the purpose of what he’s about. He’s an all action player who happens to be a defender and that is why when comparing him to defensive greats is futile. He’s never been a defender ‘s defender - he’s a great footballer rather than a great defensive centre back.
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
15,800
Supports
Real Madrid
This is what Pique Laporte and VVD have had to go through though.... Many a time part of teams where they are pushed way into the opponents half with only their cb partner has company.
And ever since Barcelona's press and ball retention lost a step half the barcelona fans have been convinced Pique is finished

Liverpool played a more aggressive high line and VVD started making mistakes he wasn't making last year, stopped looking like the near flawless defender of last season

We've had a much more defensive approach this season compared to the past. We are currently the team that has conceded the fewest goals among europe's top 4 leagues, joint with liverpool, but with one more game played

Oh, and when Sergio Ramos doesn't play our defence falls to pieces. (And then there's nights like this where he can't be arsed to defend, the team defends badly and we still don't concede because we don't have to do much defending, courtois makes a couple great saves and the opponent is shite)
 

Tel074

Full Member
Joined
May 8, 2019
Messages
1,079
Hating Ramos is fine not liking him is fine but if anyone on here actually thinks he is overrated then please stop watching football because you just don't understand what you are watching.
 

Righteous Steps

Full Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
855
And ever since Barcelona's press and ball retention lost a step half the barcelona fans have been convinced Pique is finished

Liverpool played a more aggressive high line and VVD started making mistakes he wasn't making last year, stopped looking like the near flawless defender of last season

We've had a much more defensive approach this season compared to the past. We are currently the team that has conceded the fewest goals among europe's top 4 leagues, joint with liverpool, but with one more game played

Oh, and when Sergio Ramos doesn't play our defence falls to pieces. (And then there's nights like this where he can't be arsed to defend, the team defends badly and we still don't concede because we don't have to do much defending, courtois makes a couple great saves and the opponent is shite)
VVD made a couple mistakes but was still part of the best defence for two years in a row now, this is the first time I’ve seen Madrid and Ramos have the best defence statistically over the big leagues in Europe in years, he still looks near flawless not sure what league you’ve been watching?

It’s strange to me that anyone can have so many red cards, make mistakes and not actually be part of any all time great defences and people think their in the conversation of being arguably the best cb of the last 20 years.
 

RoyH1

Full Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2014
Messages
2,756
Location
DKNY
And ever since Barcelona's press and ball retention lost a step half the barcelona fans have been convinced Pique is finished

Liverpool played a more aggressive high line and VVD started making mistakes he wasn't making last year, stopped looking like the near flawless defender of last season

We've had a much more defensive approach this season compared to the past. We are currently the team that has conceded the fewest goals among europe's top 4 leagues, joint with liverpool, but with one more game played

Oh, and when Sergio Ramos doesn't play our defence falls to pieces. (And then there's nights like this where he can't be arsed to defend, the team defends badly and we still don't concede because we don't have to do much defending, courtois makes a couple great saves and the opponent is shite)

It's really interesting for me that Varane gets so much love from many, but when Ramos is not playing along side him, the Madrid defence struggles mightily. Food for thought
 

GatoLoco

Full Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2018
Messages
681
Supports
Real Madrid
:eek:

I don't have enough symbols to annotate this with :lol:

Who was the main defender during this era? Was it Hierro? How would you compare him against Ramos (both obviously being Real Madrid legends)

Also, when did the Galatico era start?
Madrid going from 2008 to 2020 conceding more goals than Barcelona in every single league season is definitely a bad look even taking into account how attacking they were.
Based on some of the comments here I think people tend to overestimate the importance of goals conceded. I don't claim it's an unimportant stat, however it's far from conclusive by itself. I.e. Madrid might be today the best side in Europe in that department, but I would rank them as the 9th or 10th best Real Madrid team since 2009 (11 teams included).
 

Madridista2000

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 6, 2017
Messages
27
Supports
Real Madrid
This is what Pique Laporte and VVD have had to go through though.... Many a time part of teams where they are pushed way into the opponents half with only their cb partner has company.
Barcelona has been defending a lot with the ball - by keeping possession. And they have been very good by pressing high, so they win the ball back quickly. Pique has never been as exposed as Madrid defenders.
 

Liver_bird

Full Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2015
Messages
5,448
Location
England
Supports
Liverpool
And ever since Barcelona's press and ball retention lost a step half the barcelona fans have been convinced Pique is finished

Liverpool played a more aggressive high line and VVD started making mistakes he wasn't making last year, stopped looking like the near flawless defender of last season

We've had a much more defensive approach this season compared to the past. We are currently the team that has conceded the fewest goals among europe's top 4 leagues, joint with liverpool, but with one more game played

Oh, and when Sergio Ramos doesn't play our defence falls to pieces. (And then there's nights like this where he can't be arsed to defend, the team defends badly and we still don't concede because we don't have to do much defending, courtois makes a couple great saves and the opponent is shite)
This is pretty much the nail on the head, the reasons there’s such a dearth of top quality CB’s is the greater emphasis on attacking football. Your defenders need to be able to play a high line and defend vast spaces and be comfortable 1v1. Under Klopp in his early reign we were amazing going forwards but we left our defenders exposed completely and eventually it resulted in games like the Spurs one where the trade off just wasn’t worth it.

Ramos is an incredible centre half and often had to defend an entire side of the pitch completely on his own. It’s not that Marcelo wasn’t capable of defending its that the benefit of having him in the opposition half outweighed the increased amount of goals and mistakes made.

Terry for instance I actually think is underrated in terms of his on the ball ability, but there’s no way he has the reputation he does in these modern systems. Defenders are very system dependent and in big sides you’re not going to get the protection you did 10-15 years ago in a Rafa/Mourinho side. Having defenders like Laporte VVD Ramos that can transcend any one particular system and still be effective enough to ensure the success of their team is paramount for big clubs who play that way.
 

MetoTTT

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 22, 2018
Messages
712
Location
France
No. He's a great CB over the years, money time great performer, longevity, leadership, scored important goals, love the jersey...a true "b**ch" at times who everybody would love/dream to have in the team.
 
Last edited:

adexkola

Arsenal supporter
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
38,595
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
Barcelona has been defending a lot with the ball - by keeping possession. And they have been very good by pressing high, so they win the ball back quickly. Pique has never been as exposed as Madrid defenders.
Regarding the bolded, it's my belief that being a central defender in such a system isn't something any defender can do. Yes, possession is key, but the back line is an integral part of keeping that possession. And any mistake made while on the ball is deadly, as the opponent has a free lane to the goal. If you're playing for Barcelona or City (the only other side which uses possession this way), you need to know how to hold the back line extremely well. How do you handle balls over the top? How do you set offside traps? And don't forget that despite holding possession, you'll need to defend corners, indirect free kicks, long balls into the area... it's a vital part of any team that has desires of playing this way. And I feel that specifically with regards to Pique, to the contrary, such a system has exposed him at times when he wasn't in the best of form (2012 comes to mind). If you're shit, or even mediocre, you will stand out in such a team, and not in a good way. Simply for the fact that under pressure from the opposition, you are unreliable as an option for the pass.

I get the temptation to think that Pique has had an easier job compared to Madrid defenders... I won't argue the opposite, I'll just say he's been an indispensable part of why Barcelona haven't conceded as much as Madrid over the past 10 years (of course in addition to the possession and all that).

I've asked this before, and with no disrespect to Ramos, is there any significant gap between Pique and Ramos (apart from goalscoring)? I can't think of anything that would make me put one way above the other, non-goal-scoring-wise
 

Strelok

Full Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2018
Messages
782
Hell no. I don't like him at all however he's one of the best CB in the last 20 years or so.
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
15,800
Supports
Real Madrid
Regarding the bolded, it's my belief that being a central defender in such a system isn't something any defender can do. Yes, possession is key, but the back line is an integral part of keeping that possession. And any mistake made while on the ball is deadly, as the opponent has a free lane to the goal. If you're playing for Barcelona or City (the only other side which uses possession this way), you need to know how to hold the back line extremely well. How do you handle balls over the top? How do you set offside traps? And don't forget that despite holding possession, you'll need to defend corners, indirect free kicks, long balls into the area... it's a vital part of any team that has desires of playing this way. And I feel that specifically with regards to Pique, to the contrary, such a system has exposed him at times when he wasn't in the best of form (2012 comes to mind). If you're shit, or even mediocre, you will stand out in such a team, and not in a good way. Simply for the fact that under pressure from the opposition, you are unreliable as an option for the pass.

I get the temptation to think that Pique has had an easier job compared to Madrid defenders... I won't argue the opposite, I'll just say he's been an indispensable part of why Barcelona haven't conceded as much as Madrid over the past 10 years (of course in addition to the possession and all that).

I've asked this before, and with no disrespect to Ramos, is there any significant gap between Pique and Ramos (apart from goalscoring)? I can't think of anything that would make me put one way above the other, non-goal-scoring-wise
Leadership and goal-scoring, yeah. Sergio is also more bold on the ball, often acting as a shadow DLP, while Pique is more about keeping possession

And you're right, Pique is a phenomenal defender and was exceptional for barcelona. But ultimately their possession and pressing were the main reasons for their defensive record. A fact that clearly shows as the moment the possession and especially the pressing stopped being as effective, they started conceding significantly more. The only outlier being 17/18, where Ter Stegen accounted for their defensive record by effectively saving them 10 goals...
 

SilentStrike

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
159
Location
Netherlands
Supports
Feyenoord
This can't be a serious thread with "peak Boateng" there...
Peak Boateng actually hit some insane heights. I remember him in 2016 just dominating games from defense. Defended like the best, sprayed inch-perfect long balls all over the field, he was actually really good under Guardiola.

I would say everytime I open instagram and enter a football related page it makes me sigh and I would say Ramos is massively overrated. But considering those pages are filled with 13 year olds it shouldn't really be a good reference. I think most of the football world would acknowledge Ramos is among the best of his generation, but ranks a tier or two below the best of all time.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
40,841
Location
CA
Apparently that was his 100th goal in club football, and 121st goal on his career (yep, he has an insane 21 goals for Spain). Not bad for the most overrated player ever.

Easily the best defender of his generation, and an all time great.
 

SadlerMUFC

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Messages
2,811
Location
Niagara Falls, Canada
Goals for a defender are nothing more than a bonus. His job first and foremost is to defend. So saying that he has scored a bunch and following that with "he is the greatest defender ever" just doesn't make sense. He is fantastic footballer. No doubt about it. I just don't think he should have been a defender. Seems more like a midfielder to me and makes way too many defensive mistakes to be considered a great defender...
 

RashyForPM

Full Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
78
What a fantastic, super player. Ramos is the only man who gets degraded because he scores goals! Stevie Bruce and Hierro never got this treatment, so why does Ramos?

Aside from his attacking, Ramos’s defending, his main role, is masterful and for me, the best in the world. At the moment, Koulibaly, Van Dijk and De Ligt are getting all the hype but I believe Ramos is better than all of them at every facet of the game. For those who disagree, tell me what any of them can do better than Ramos. A few yellow and red cards don’t change this.

He’s a winner too. Aside from his evident leadership skills, the little things like hard tackles and even injuring players, while I truly condemn it and is why he won’t be remembered fondly in the future, definitely do spur his teammates on to up their intensity and attack teams into submission. He is a nasty piece of work and extremely irritating — he played United to get a new contract back in 2015 — but for a club like Real Madrid, where only winning at all costs is on the agenda, he’s the perfect captain and a major reason as to why they were so successful over the last decade.
 

adexkola

Arsenal supporter
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
38,595
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
What a fantastic, super player. Ramos is the only man who gets degraded because he scores goals! Stevie Bruce and Hierro never got this treatment, so why does Ramos?

Aside from his attacking, Ramos’s defending, his main role, is masterful and for me, the best in the world. At the moment, Koulibaly, Van Dijk and De Ligt are getting all the hype but I believe Ramos is better than all of them at every facet of the game. For those who disagree, tell me what any of them can do better than Ramos. A few yellow and red cards don’t change this.

He’s a winner too. Aside from his evident leadership skills, the little things like hard tackles and even injuring players, while I truly condemn it and is why he won’t be remembered fondly in the future, definitely do spur his teammates on to up their intensity and attack teams into submission. He is a nasty piece of work and extremely irritating — he played United to get a new contract back in 2015 — but for a club like Real Madrid, where only winning at all costs is on the agenda, he’s the perfect captain and a major reason as to why they were so successful over the last decade.
:lol: it's posts like these that made me a hardcore anti-Ramos fanatic for over half a decade
 

RashyForPM

Full Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2020
Messages
78
:lol: it's posts like these that made me a hardcore anti-Ramos fanatic for over half a decade
Tell me what they do better than Ramos then. Ramos led Madrid to 4 CL titles in 5 years. Will those 3 ever do that for their clubs?
 

roonster09

Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018
Scout
Joined
May 10, 2009
Messages
23,319
Madrid have the best defensive record in top 5 leagues but somehow he barely gets any credit. He is very good defender and fantastic player.
 

Fracture90

Full Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
9,631
Location
Serbia
Peak Boateng actually hit some insane heights. I remember him in 2016 just dominating games from defense. Defended like the best, sprayed inch-perfect long balls all over the field, he was actually really good under Guardiola.

I would say everytime I open instagram and enter a football related page it makes me sigh and I would say Ramos is massively overrated. But considering those pages are filled with 13 year olds it shouldn't really be a good reference. I think most of the football world would acknowledge Ramos is among the best of his generation, but ranks a tier or two below the best of all time.
Boateng for a time was a quality CB, but he didn't nothing to merit being put along those names OP had mentioned. Under Guardiola Hummels looked a world beater at times, so did Martinez.

I'd say for Ramos is a same case as for Pique, they're great CB's but were never best in the world in any point of their respective careers.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
40,841
Location
CA
Goals for a defender are nothing more than a bonus. His job first and foremost is to defend. So saying that he has scored a bunch and following that with "he is the greatest defender ever" just doesn't make sense. He is fantastic footballer. No doubt about it. I just don't think he should have been a defender. Seems more like a midfielder to me and makes way too many defensive mistakes to be considered a great defender...
I thought that goals scored from a defender actually count too and win matches as much as goals scored from an attacker. But I guess I might be wrong.
 

hasanejaz88

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
2,600
Location
Munich
Supports
Germany
Boateng for a time was a quality CB, but he didn't nothing to merit being put along those names OP had mentioned. Under Guardiola Hummels looked a world beater at times, so did Martinez.

I'd say for Ramos is a same case as for Pique, they're great CB's but were never best in the world in any point of their respective careers.
1. Boateng has won a World cup and UCL, that's now than some of the names mentioned in OP.

2. Hummels never played under Guardiola

3. Martinez barely played under Guardiola because he was mostly injured, including being injured the whole of 14/15.
 

Fracture90

Full Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
9,631
Location
Serbia
1. Boateng has won a World cup and UCL, that's now than some of the names mentioned in OP.

2. Hummels never played under Guardiola

3. Martinez barely played under Guardiola because he was mostly injured, including being injured the whole of 14/15.
My bad on Hummels, he joined after Guardiola had left.

Martinez played nonetheless, he racked close to 100 appearances under Guardiola and most of them come in the CB spot. Was it not Guardiola who started playing Martinez as a CB even though he was mostly a DMF at Bilbao?

I agree with the WC notion, but for some on that list it's more down to FA's being disgustingly incompetent.
 

Isotope

Full Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2012
Messages
14,903
Supports
Ole Ole Ole
Easily the best defender of his generation, and an all time great.
This often said by many. What do you mean by "his generation"? What's the time interval?
 

Amar__

Geriatric lover
Joined
Sep 2, 2010
Messages
18,983
Location
Sarajevo
Supports
MK Dons
This often said by many. What do you mean by "his generation"? What's the time interval?
Well it's gotta be post 2011-12 because he sure cost Real Madrid lot of titles and games back then.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
40,841
Location
CA
This often said by many. What do you mean by "his generation"? What's the time interval?
The time he played during his career. I guess the last 12-15 years or so. Though he has been CB only in the last decade so count only that.
 

SambaBoy

Full Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2009
Messages
3,432
This is pretty much the nail on the head, the reasons there’s such a dearth of top quality CB’s is the greater emphasis on attacking football. Your defenders need to be able to play a high line and defend vast spaces and be comfortable 1v1. Under Klopp in his early reign we were amazing going forwards but we left our defenders exposed completely and eventually it resulted in games like the Spurs one where the trade off just wasn’t worth it.

Ramos is an incredible centre half and often had to defend an entire side of the pitch completely on his own. It’s not that Marcelo wasn’t capable of defending its that the benefit of having him in the opposition half outweighed the increased amount of goals and mistakes made.

Terry for instance I actually think is underrated in terms of his on the ball ability, but there’s no way he has the reputation he does in these modern systems. Defenders are very system dependent and in big sides you’re not going to get the protection you did 10-15 years ago in a Rafa/Mourinho side. Having defenders like Laporte VVD Ramos that can transcend any one particular system and still be effective enough to ensure the success of their team is paramount for big clubs who play that way.
Good point this. Terry was excellent on the ball and could pick some fantastic passes. He was a 18 yard box defender who snuffed out danger, great in the air, put his head where others wouldn't put their boots but struggled against pace at times. When AVB started to play a high line, he really struggled. At the time, his passing and ball playing ability wasn't lauded as much as it should whilst I always thought Rio's ball playing ability was overrated. Yeah he was comfortable on the ball, but he kept it simple for the most part and wouldn't initiate attacks however he did have Scholes in front of him who would collect the ball.
 

hasanejaz88

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
2,600
Location
Munich
Supports
Germany
My bad on Hummels, he joined after Guardiola had left.

Martinez played nonetheless, he racked close to 100 appearances under Guardiola and most of them come in the CB spot. Was it not Guardiola who started playing Martinez as a CB even though he was mostly a DMF at Bilbao?

I agree with the WC notion, but for some on that list it's more down to FA's being disgustingly incompetent.
Martinez played 68 times in 3 seasons (only 3 times in 14/15), compared to Boateng playing 118 in the same time (he too had injury problems though).

Martinez was played at CB in Pep's third season because the injury meant Javi had lost a lot of speed and mobility to play in the DM spot while injury problems at CB during the same time forced it a bit as well. In Pep's first season Martinez was mostly played as a DM.

I don't think he was played at CB because he was good at it but rather Pep was forced because of injuries at guys like Boateng, Benatia, Badstuber and Javi's own problems post his injury.
 

hmchan

Full Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
471
Location
Hong Kong
No Ronaldo and their elite midfield led them to those titles.
I guess everyone plays a role leading the team to glory, but it's weird to see many rate Ramos so high solely based on club honors. A team winning multiple titles doesn't necessarily mean everyone in that team is top. While I admire his leadership and ability in heading corners, I think his defensive ability is indeed overrated. His defensive positioning and awareness are nowhere near the best, and many of his mistakes and red cards are just bizarre.
 

SadlerMUFC

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Messages
2,811
Location
Niagara Falls, Canada
I thought that goals scored from a defender actually count too and win matches as much as goals scored from an attacker. But I guess I might be wrong.
Of course they count. But you don't rate how good a defender is based on how many goals they score. You rate them based on how many goals they prevent...