He has the players' respect and has them playing for him. Which is more than you could say of guys like Capello, Eriksson etc. That's about the only positive I can think of.
Is Southgate underrated by the CAF?
- Thread starter Sir Erik ten Hag
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"More to do with" != "unrelated". I'm sorry you can't understand this.
That's quite funny. I haven't dodged anything. I just told you I find this back and forth really boring save for trying to see if how dedicated you are to getting the last word. I'm half-heartedly responding
Cue the goalpost moving. Yawn.
Aren't you bored?
Couldn't agree more. A limited manager who punched above his weight at the Euros but bottled the finals with cowardly tactics.
I'm not moving any goalposts. I'm just providing you with a couple of other managers that I think compare to Southgate.
Again, quite telling that you've dodged the questions. Doing it by "half-heartedly responding" is still dodging them.
Are any of those mentioned good managers? And if not, what separates Southgate from them?
You can say this is boring and that I'm trying to get the last word in all you want, but I'm just trying to find out what it is you see in Southgate that most other football fans don't, particularly as these fans are apparently "arrogant" for not seeing it.
So far all you've mustered is "lost big matches", which isn't a great argument.
Bolded made me laugh. I'm impressed at your dedication to this schtick.
He's the best manager England have had since 66
Dodged again. Shall I just assume you think they're actually not that good?
Which, of course, extends to Southgate.
What makes him better than Venables for example?
No, there's just a huge difference between managing a club and a national team. He's done well as England manager but would be awful at any half decent club.
Given the strength of the England squad now I think there will be increasing pressure again though because Golden Generation 2 should really be winning either a Euros or a World Cup.
Given the strength of the England squad now I think there will be increasing pressure again though because Golden Generation 2 should really be winning either a Euros or a World Cup.
Didn't dodge anything. Go on.
You've refused to answer the questions posed to you about four times
The questions are changing with every pass and you argument style frankly sucks so I'm just passing time.You've refused to answer the questions posed to you about four times
The questions have been the same for ages, you just keep refusing to answer them. It's incredibly obvious why you're doing that.
Anyway, here they are again:
Is Roberto Di Matteo a good manager because he won the Champions League?
Is Avram Grant a good manager because he only lost a Champions League final on penalties?
Is Chris Coleman a good manager because he guided Wales to the semi-finals of the Euros?
Is Ole Gunnar Solskjaer a good manager because he managed a second place finish in the Premier League as Manchester United manager?
If you think these have changed in any way since I originally asked them, explain how they're different.
The first two were answered and the rest came after I answered the first two question and told you I'm not interested in this back forth past seeing your dedication to getting the last word.
Go on.
You didn't answer the first two questions.
You dodged them:
That isn't an answer.
The other two came after that because your excuse for dodging was that they were interim managers, so I gave two examples that weren't.
Again, why do you keep lying about what you've posted when it can very easily quoted back to you?
He's been pretty fairly rated generally IMO, don't know about the Caf.
He's a good but not great manager, who have achieved good but not great results. Which is unfortunate for England because in the last 5-6 years they had A) an amazing pool of talent that could have achieved the highest honours with a great manager, and B) incredible luck in draws plus home advantage in the Euros plus most of the historically bigger teams (Brazil, Germany, Italy, Spain) in a bit of a crisis.
He's a good but not great manager, who have achieved good but not great results. Which is unfortunate for England because in the last 5-6 years they had A) an amazing pool of talent that could have achieved the highest honours with a great manager, and B) incredible luck in draws plus home advantage in the Euros plus most of the historically bigger teams (Brazil, Germany, Italy, Spain) in a bit of a crisis.
but who is a great manager that would have managed england at that time ? cant think of anyone great who would have taken it. most national managers arent all time great club managers. whilst i laughed at the idea of southgate taking charge you cant deny he has done an incredible job. a final & semi. Are these players better than the players in the golden gereration? i dont think so. i would take rio and terry over stones and maguire for example. but what he has done is create a team england approach and its working.
that said, once england is over he wont get a top club in the PL
that said, once england is over he wont get a top club in the PL
Its not about him playing certain players or not, its the willingness to bend over and play like an underdog when he has top top attacking talents at his disposal to make the opponents shit the bed.
Its like having a machine gun but deciding to shoot 1 bullet at a time.
Its like having a machine gun but deciding to shoot 1 bullet at a time.
Awful manager. Boro were an awful fixture, Europa League finalists, regularly beating the top 4. Southgate took over after the Europa league final and got them relegated within a year.
England’s golden generation is being wasted. Even a Sven level manager would have won the Euro’s
England’s golden generation is being wasted. Even a Sven level manager would have won the Euro’s
I'd imagine there would have been several candidates for the position's importance. IIRC Southgate started as an interim manager.
Anyway, back to results, I don't think they have been "incredible". They have been OK. In WC England beat Tunisia (last minute goal), Panama and Sweden (whose most important player at the time was probably Lindelof). Barely passed through Colombia (without their best player James Rodríguez) on penalties. When playing against opossition at about the same level they lost to knackered Croatia and Belgium (twice). Next WC was similar: breezed through Iran, Wales, and a Senegal team without their main star Sadio Mane. Lost to the first significant oponent they faced (in this case a France without Hernández, Kante, Pogba and Benzema).
The Euro was a golden chance playing at home, without having to face neither the continental nor the world champion, plus going through the easy part of the draw (no Belgium, no Spain) once again. A good win against Germany (who were in chaos at the time) and expectable ones against Ukraine and a Denmark without their best player again (this is a recurring theme that points out that England has also been lucky with injuries these last years). Still, in the final they were defeated again, on penalties, at home, against good but still inferior opposition.
During this whole tenure their best win was the one against Germany, who have also lost to the likes of Mexico, South Korea, France and Japan in the same timeframe. Bottomline good, but not great.
Disclaimer: Having said all that, England's pool of talent is fantastic but also a little overhyped in terms of success. Most of these guys (Mount, Rice, Foden, Rashford, Grealish, Sancho, etc) haven't been exactly world class players leading their clubs to big trophies. They have been promising though, especially what Bellingham is doing in Madrid this season. In the end the NT had relied more on "normies" like Pickford, Maguire or Henderson, and in one truly world class player who is also tormented by his lack of silverware.
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As others have pointed out, Southgate's regularly come up short against comparable opposition, and that's why people are frustrated with him as a manager.
As much as he's done well to beat what's been put in front of him, his runs to the WC semi-final and Euros final were helped by facing "lesser" opposition along the way.
His run to the semis in 2018 was:
It's hard to argue that Southgate gets England's 2014 team out of that World Cup group (Uruguay ranked 7th, Italy ranked 9th, Costa Rica ranked 28th), or beats Italy (ranked 12th) in the Euro 2012 quarter final. Same goes for Germany (ranked 4th) in 2010, Portugal (ranked 7th) in 2006, or even Portugal (ranked 22nd) in 2004. You could argue that he might not have even got out of the group in 2002 (Argentina ranked 3rd, Sweden ranked 19th, Nigeria ranked 27th), and it seems highly unlikely he's beating Brazil (ranked 2nd) if he did.
As much as he's done well to beat what's been put in front of him, his runs to the WC semi-final and Euros final were helped by facing "lesser" opposition along the way.
His run to the semis in 2018 was:
- Tunisia (ranked 21st) - Won
- Panama (ranked 55th) - Won
- Belgium (ranked 3rd) - Lost
- Colombia (ranked 17th) - Drew (won on penalties)
- Sweden (ranked 21st) - Won
- Croatia (ranked 12th) - Lost
- Belgium (ranked 5th) - Lost
- Croatia (ranked 14th) - Won
- Scotland (ranked 44th) - Drew
- Czech Republic (ranked 40th) - Won
- Germany (ranked 12th) - Won
- Ukraine (ranked 24th) - Won
- Denmark (ranked 10th) - Won
- Italy (ranked 7th) - Drew (lost on penalties)
- Iran (ranked 20th) - Won
- USA (ranked 16th) - Drew
- Wales (ranked 19th) - Won
- Senegal (ranked 18th) - Won
- France (ranked 4th) - Lost
It's hard to argue that Southgate gets England's 2014 team out of that World Cup group (Uruguay ranked 7th, Italy ranked 9th, Costa Rica ranked 28th), or beats Italy (ranked 12th) in the Euro 2012 quarter final. Same goes for Germany (ranked 4th) in 2010, Portugal (ranked 7th) in 2006, or even Portugal (ranked 22nd) in 2004. You could argue that he might not have even got out of the group in 2002 (Argentina ranked 3rd, Sweden ranked 19th, Nigeria ranked 27th), and it seems highly unlikely he's beating Brazil (ranked 2nd) if he did.
It's a silly comparison that should be obvious. Any sensible person would realize that.
Keep going.
Indeed you have. We can agree on that.
You can't even answer four simple yes/no questions because doing so will expose your "he reached a cup final" reasoning for him being anything above a limited manager as total bollocks.
All you have is ridiculous a penchant for lying about what you've posted and increasingly childish deflection tactics.
We've just reached, "I know you are, but what am I?", so I'm interested to see what you can come up with next.
He was pretty good in Prison Break's first season, but I've never rated him after that.
Obviously, he's slated for taking England to a Euro final (never happened before) and World Cup semi (only had happened one since 66) with a squad not as good as the 2000s. People forget how bad most other managers were. He did have a favourable run in in both tournaments I do admit that. There's no question he deserves to lead England in the upcoming Euros and they're favourites alongside France for me.
Two becomes four. Four becomes eight. I don't respond to browbeating and not a single lie was told. Therefore not interested in a real discussion with you.
I've literally been able to quote you contradicting yourself on multiple occasions
We've also established that two became four because you tried dismissed the first two as being "interim managers".
In fact, claiming to have answered those first two was one of your lies.
Di Matteo, Grant, Coleman, Solskjaer. Good managers? Go. You can do it.
OkI've literally been able to quote you contradicting yourself on multiple occasions
We've also established that two became four because you tried dismissed the first two as being "interim managers".
In fact, claiming to have answered those first two was one of your lies.
Di Matteo, Grant, Coleman, Solskjaer. Good managers? Go. You can do it.
Ok
No. He’s essentially Will from the Inbetweeners if he became a manager. Waistcoat wanker.
Mate, just give me an answer. The questions haven't changed.
You think Southgate is a good manager because he reached a Euros final with England.
Avram Grant reached a CL final with Chelsea. Di Matteo won one. Coleman took Wales to the Euros semis. Solskjaer finished 2nd in the league. Are they good managers or limited managers?
Ok
The thread is about whether Southgate is underrated.
You seem to think he is because he got to the final of the Euros.
I don't believe that's true and have presented you with what I feel are comparable examples other managers and their accomplishments, and asked if you think they're good managers because of those accomplishments.
Answer the questions, and we can move on with the discussion.
Ok
A truly embarrassing display of petulance because you've backed yourself into a corner with a daft stance on Gareth Southgate, of all people.
Ok