Apologies in advance for the massive essay I'm about to post, but it's something I wasn't too sure where to put so I made a thread on it, because I felt it was something worth considering.
One of the main running themes at Manchester United is that we're run by the corporate suits, and how it's become a meme at this point that United is just a massive moneymaking exercise first and football team second, and that an accountant is having a massive power trip at trying to be something he's not.
Coupled with the never-ending story of United getting a Director of Football in, and the endless procrastination and dragging off feet with the whole thing, and changing of tunes depending on how results go.
But looking back since our recent history since SAF retired, I've found some interesting things.
Under SAF towards the later years, there seemed to be more delegation handed out by him to other people around the club. I'm pretty sure when we signed Hernandez, SAF said that he'd never seen him play first hand and that the chief scout Jim Lawlor was mainly responsible for the signing. When SAF moves upstairs to the board room, I imagine there's a great deal of faith in Lawlor in identifying players if SAF would allow so much delegated authority to the Chief Scout to sign a player for the first team, with limited input seemingly.
Over the years since SAF retired, we've seen players like Herrera, Kroos and Shaw being heavily linked to join. Herrera was someone who was identified as far back as Sir Alex's penultimate season I believe and a player Sir Alex did like. Moyes seemingly dithered on him but the club and/or LVG approved it eventually. Kroos got identified during the Moyes reign... but going off of what has come out recently, it seems like the club itself was signing him rather than Moyes. Kroos seemed to want to come here despite Moyes being gone and that Moyes just happened to be the manager at the time. Unfortunately LVG vetoed this transfer (if Kroos is to be believed). I'm fairly sure Shaw was signed in that managerial limbo period between Moyes finishing, Giggs caretaking and LVG having a pre-agreement to join Utd while he was at the 2014 World Cup with Holland. I don't think LVG would have been involved in Utd transfer dealings as he was preparing Holland for the 2016 World Cup, so therefore Shaw must have been a club signing... The way even LVG spoke about Shaw, I didn't seem like he'd been identified by LVG. Another example was Martial, who I'm fairly certain LVG said "he's not my signing, he's a signing for the next manager" and possibly alluded to it being a club signing.
Under Jose Mourinho, we saw Fred come into the club. However recently, Jose has seemingly washed his hands of Fred and said "I didn't sign Fred". I remember reading an article about Kieran McKenna when he was running the successful academy teams (prior to being in the first team coaching staff), and an interesting point which came up was McKenna showed the academy players video clips of Fred playing for Shakhtar and that this was how he expected the central midfielders to play and follow Fred as a good example of that... so is it possible that somewhere in that structure there are football people talking to each other and making positive decisions? Is it possible that our many head scouts like Lawlor and Bout, and the head of football development Murtough are actually making good decisions with coaching staff across the spectrum at United? Maybe the decisions have been vetoed by LVG and Jose, and we went with their ways instead?
One thing we can say about the LVG and particularly Jose is that we had to go all in for them or else... so LVG vetoes Kroos joining and buys an aged Schweinsteiger whom he knew from Bayern, and buys Blind and Depay whom he knew from Holland. One name that did crop up during LVG's reign who was a bit left field at the time perhaps, was one Odion Ighalo. I believe this was the season Ighalo had a relatively prolific season for Watford... of course the move didn't happen at the time but now we have signed him despite it being around 4 years since that time and LVG has gone. I'm wondering whether Ighalo was actually a player that the club actually wanted (and not LVG), because now we do have him... Maybe it's Marcel Bout who another member of staff who can claim to be Chief Scout, who was part of LVG's backroom staff and the only one who stayed. Maybe the club actually identified Ighalo as a good, affordable option to have.
In terms of the marquee names we signed, that's something that's unclear to me as to who signed them... I'm not entirely sure who'd have signed ADM for us, whether LVG wanted it (however he has a history of being incompatible towards big names like Rivaldo or Stoichkov, and more suited to younger players and experienced players who aren't so big in stature) or whether a certain part of the club wanted it (namely Woodward) because 1) it's a marketable marquee name who can bring in $$$ regardless and 2) he has individual star quality that they thought they could put him anywhere in the Utd team and we'll automatically be better. Jose Mourinho's marquee signings seemed to be definitely all him, like Zlatan, Mkhitaryan and Lukaku. I think Pogba was jointly his and the club's, but I don't think Jose expected to have such a seemingly bad relationship with Pogba. Sanchez is even more unclear to me... but I get the feeling that was also a joint decision by the club and Jose.
Jose's exit from the club comes down to a weird set of events, where he signed a new contract but was not backed in the market that following summer... While I felt sympathy for him at the time (because it seems like a shit thing to break promises when the ink is barely dried on the contract so to speak), is it possible that the club hierarchy just decided at some point in the first half of 2018 "feck this, let's just do it ourselves"?... because the players they'd sighted themselves had turned out to be successful elsewhere perhaps? Or the first team had been filled with the wrong personalities (ADM) and marquee names who didn't deliver and possibly were looking for a payday? (Sanchez, Schweinsteiger)... Was Sanchez perhaps the final straw of letting a big name manager have all the first team decision making? Either way, I still say this situation was badly handled by the club and they probably should parted ways with Jose in May, but I think the fact that new contract was so recent, they probably couldn't afford the payout or the PR circumstances behind it? (because how can you tie someone down to a long term deal and then mutually part not too long after?)
So as we move away from the LVG and Jose eras, let's get onto the OGS era. We remove Fellaini almost immediately, who was a Moyes panic buy. Lukaku is frozen out under OGS and is a Jose signing... possibly his personality is not compatible with what we want. Sanchez is shipped out on loan for obvious reasons.
Our transfer this past summer have been Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James. Maguire was someone who was wanted by Jose but we didn't get because we wouldn't pay the price. We still go in for Maguire a year, paying more (annoyingly) but no Jose there... so is Maguire actually a club signing made? (may be that he's a signing that the club and Jose agreed on). Wan-Bissaka seems like a club signing when compared to when we bought Shaw... an obviously good, English full-back with not too much risk attached. James is a young, low-risk punt who is also British allegedly recommended by Giggs.
I can't see OGS (given his inexperience at the highest level of club football management) being solely responsible for these three signings. I think he probably gave input and a thumbs up to these signings and said "yeah I can use them", but the club hierarchy such as possibly Bout, Lawlor, Murtough, possibly Nicky Butt and additionally approved by board people like SAF and Charlton... they were the ones who do the groundwork for these signings. We've recently signed Ighalo as mentioned before... was he actually a player liked by the club and not LVG way back when? Crucially, we've also steered away from the marquee names who've been largely a disappointment for us barring Zlatan I suppose.
So in order to wrap up this massive, droning post. the conclusion is of a question of whether these more recent successes are attributable to the club's own infrastructure itself (which we joke about being non-existent in terms of on-field stuff) and that they actually doing a good job, but we're unfairly attributing it to OGS. We make more grounded signings in terms of reputation (no more marquee signings and those marquee names are being phased out, including Pogba) and the recent signings have so far been a success (at worst a jury's out). Dybala was not pursued because it ended sounding like another ADM moment, where we're buying a player where the selling club want to sell him but he doesn't want to go.
Is it possible that amongst all those chief scouts like Lawlor and Bout, football administrators like Murtough, directors like SAF and Charlton and even the top man Woodward... that we are actually making good footballing decisions now, regardless of having no formal Director of Football in place? Is it possible now we can make those Kroos-like signings and not have it vetoed by a big name we gave free reign too? And in the end be the better decision?
One of the main running themes at Manchester United is that we're run by the corporate suits, and how it's become a meme at this point that United is just a massive moneymaking exercise first and football team second, and that an accountant is having a massive power trip at trying to be something he's not.
Coupled with the never-ending story of United getting a Director of Football in, and the endless procrastination and dragging off feet with the whole thing, and changing of tunes depending on how results go.
But looking back since our recent history since SAF retired, I've found some interesting things.
Under SAF towards the later years, there seemed to be more delegation handed out by him to other people around the club. I'm pretty sure when we signed Hernandez, SAF said that he'd never seen him play first hand and that the chief scout Jim Lawlor was mainly responsible for the signing. When SAF moves upstairs to the board room, I imagine there's a great deal of faith in Lawlor in identifying players if SAF would allow so much delegated authority to the Chief Scout to sign a player for the first team, with limited input seemingly.
Over the years since SAF retired, we've seen players like Herrera, Kroos and Shaw being heavily linked to join. Herrera was someone who was identified as far back as Sir Alex's penultimate season I believe and a player Sir Alex did like. Moyes seemingly dithered on him but the club and/or LVG approved it eventually. Kroos got identified during the Moyes reign... but going off of what has come out recently, it seems like the club itself was signing him rather than Moyes. Kroos seemed to want to come here despite Moyes being gone and that Moyes just happened to be the manager at the time. Unfortunately LVG vetoed this transfer (if Kroos is to be believed). I'm fairly sure Shaw was signed in that managerial limbo period between Moyes finishing, Giggs caretaking and LVG having a pre-agreement to join Utd while he was at the 2014 World Cup with Holland. I don't think LVG would have been involved in Utd transfer dealings as he was preparing Holland for the 2016 World Cup, so therefore Shaw must have been a club signing... The way even LVG spoke about Shaw, I didn't seem like he'd been identified by LVG. Another example was Martial, who I'm fairly certain LVG said "he's not my signing, he's a signing for the next manager" and possibly alluded to it being a club signing.
Under Jose Mourinho, we saw Fred come into the club. However recently, Jose has seemingly washed his hands of Fred and said "I didn't sign Fred". I remember reading an article about Kieran McKenna when he was running the successful academy teams (prior to being in the first team coaching staff), and an interesting point which came up was McKenna showed the academy players video clips of Fred playing for Shakhtar and that this was how he expected the central midfielders to play and follow Fred as a good example of that... so is it possible that somewhere in that structure there are football people talking to each other and making positive decisions? Is it possible that our many head scouts like Lawlor and Bout, and the head of football development Murtough are actually making good decisions with coaching staff across the spectrum at United? Maybe the decisions have been vetoed by LVG and Jose, and we went with their ways instead?
One thing we can say about the LVG and particularly Jose is that we had to go all in for them or else... so LVG vetoes Kroos joining and buys an aged Schweinsteiger whom he knew from Bayern, and buys Blind and Depay whom he knew from Holland. One name that did crop up during LVG's reign who was a bit left field at the time perhaps, was one Odion Ighalo. I believe this was the season Ighalo had a relatively prolific season for Watford... of course the move didn't happen at the time but now we have signed him despite it being around 4 years since that time and LVG has gone. I'm wondering whether Ighalo was actually a player that the club actually wanted (and not LVG), because now we do have him... Maybe it's Marcel Bout who another member of staff who can claim to be Chief Scout, who was part of LVG's backroom staff and the only one who stayed. Maybe the club actually identified Ighalo as a good, affordable option to have.
In terms of the marquee names we signed, that's something that's unclear to me as to who signed them... I'm not entirely sure who'd have signed ADM for us, whether LVG wanted it (however he has a history of being incompatible towards big names like Rivaldo or Stoichkov, and more suited to younger players and experienced players who aren't so big in stature) or whether a certain part of the club wanted it (namely Woodward) because 1) it's a marketable marquee name who can bring in $$$ regardless and 2) he has individual star quality that they thought they could put him anywhere in the Utd team and we'll automatically be better. Jose Mourinho's marquee signings seemed to be definitely all him, like Zlatan, Mkhitaryan and Lukaku. I think Pogba was jointly his and the club's, but I don't think Jose expected to have such a seemingly bad relationship with Pogba. Sanchez is even more unclear to me... but I get the feeling that was also a joint decision by the club and Jose.
Jose's exit from the club comes down to a weird set of events, where he signed a new contract but was not backed in the market that following summer... While I felt sympathy for him at the time (because it seems like a shit thing to break promises when the ink is barely dried on the contract so to speak), is it possible that the club hierarchy just decided at some point in the first half of 2018 "feck this, let's just do it ourselves"?... because the players they'd sighted themselves had turned out to be successful elsewhere perhaps? Or the first team had been filled with the wrong personalities (ADM) and marquee names who didn't deliver and possibly were looking for a payday? (Sanchez, Schweinsteiger)... Was Sanchez perhaps the final straw of letting a big name manager have all the first team decision making? Either way, I still say this situation was badly handled by the club and they probably should parted ways with Jose in May, but I think the fact that new contract was so recent, they probably couldn't afford the payout or the PR circumstances behind it? (because how can you tie someone down to a long term deal and then mutually part not too long after?)
So as we move away from the LVG and Jose eras, let's get onto the OGS era. We remove Fellaini almost immediately, who was a Moyes panic buy. Lukaku is frozen out under OGS and is a Jose signing... possibly his personality is not compatible with what we want. Sanchez is shipped out on loan for obvious reasons.
Our transfer this past summer have been Maguire, Wan-Bissaka and James. Maguire was someone who was wanted by Jose but we didn't get because we wouldn't pay the price. We still go in for Maguire a year, paying more (annoyingly) but no Jose there... so is Maguire actually a club signing made? (may be that he's a signing that the club and Jose agreed on). Wan-Bissaka seems like a club signing when compared to when we bought Shaw... an obviously good, English full-back with not too much risk attached. James is a young, low-risk punt who is also British allegedly recommended by Giggs.
I can't see OGS (given his inexperience at the highest level of club football management) being solely responsible for these three signings. I think he probably gave input and a thumbs up to these signings and said "yeah I can use them", but the club hierarchy such as possibly Bout, Lawlor, Murtough, possibly Nicky Butt and additionally approved by board people like SAF and Charlton... they were the ones who do the groundwork for these signings. We've recently signed Ighalo as mentioned before... was he actually a player liked by the club and not LVG way back when? Crucially, we've also steered away from the marquee names who've been largely a disappointment for us barring Zlatan I suppose.
So in order to wrap up this massive, droning post. the conclusion is of a question of whether these more recent successes are attributable to the club's own infrastructure itself (which we joke about being non-existent in terms of on-field stuff) and that they actually doing a good job, but we're unfairly attributing it to OGS. We make more grounded signings in terms of reputation (no more marquee signings and those marquee names are being phased out, including Pogba) and the recent signings have so far been a success (at worst a jury's out). Dybala was not pursued because it ended sounding like another ADM moment, where we're buying a player where the selling club want to sell him but he doesn't want to go.
Is it possible that amongst all those chief scouts like Lawlor and Bout, football administrators like Murtough, directors like SAF and Charlton and even the top man Woodward... that we are actually making good footballing decisions now, regardless of having no formal Director of Football in place? Is it possible now we can make those Kroos-like signings and not have it vetoed by a big name we gave free reign too? And in the end be the better decision?