It’s relevant from a rangers fan. I hope madrid and Barca fall by their convictions but I see very little difference in what they did and the effects in their league to what Celtic and Rangers do periodically
Is there a way back for Real Madrid and Barcelona?
- Thread starter VP89
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Elections? What even are those?
I'd call it "read the actual article"
Net debt =/= gross debt
There's always money in the banana stand.
I'm not sure about Madrid, they'll surely be a force again soon though. Zidane has a bit of a squad rebuild on his hands which I'm sure he will be already on with the planning of.
Barca-wise, they have a very good set of youngsters coming through don't they?
The 'Class of 2021' maybe?
Both will be back to their old school best shortly I'd imagine.
Barca-wise, they have a very good set of youngsters coming through don't they?
The 'Class of 2021' maybe?
Both will be back to their old school best shortly I'd imagine.
A problem for Real is that matchday revenues are a significant proportion of their income. They have lost 1.5 seasons worth now and that is a sunk cost, as you cannot do any creative accounting to mitigate its loss. Furthermore, they keep announcing that their debt is lower than it is, as they exclude/seperate the stadium debt. Furthermore, they have a €200-300m loan that is expiring that they will need to refinance, however they are going to have to do so with a much lower income level projection (owing to lost revenues from Covid) which means it is going to be a lot more expensive. Lastly, they're sneaky government money that they have been lapping up has also been turned off finally, so no more going back to that well to solve their debt problems like they did in 2001/2 (where essentially that paid for the first galatico project.)
Essentially, Real model of operation needs to change drastically. They cannot go out and buy the top players as they cannot raise the debt to finance it as their existing debts are going to get more expensive/not wiped out by the Spanish Govt and they having an aging squad who have zero value for transfers. Modric, Kroos, Benezema, Ramos, Hazard and Bale will not raise them anything but need replacing.
I don't think anyone at Real Madrid pointed to Spurs, that would be the strangest thing ever.
The stadium will be paid in 35 years and it will probably raise the income when it's finished in 2024(?). If predictions are right it will be a blessing rather than a problem.
Vinicius Jr, just find him so underwhelming.
The subect is Spanish football. Spanish football is not comparable with Scottish football. Their league has other large clubs who regularly compete for silverware in Europe. Their league has a huge international following and massive TV revenues. These teams attract the best players in the world.
Rangers and Celtic play in a small, relatively unwatched league. I have absolutely no interest in joining the EPL and I would be upset if Rangers did so. Why do you keep bringing up Scottish football? I might be a Rangers fan but that does not exclude me from commenting upon matters outside Scottish football. Do you actually have any constructive point to make on this thread subject?
This. Real in the lates 80s until 98 was not so prominent. Even recently, from 2004 till 2011 were a bit shit, going regularly out from Lyon.
Sorry badly worded. I meant when there are descriptions of debt on clubs, a lot of the time Real's stadium debt will not be included but Spurs will be. There is a graphic above which shows this.
Real's problem is really as follows:
1) There income is heavily dependent on matchday income. The losses over the last 1.5 seasons therefore mean that is a total write off.
2) They cannot access anymore Spanish Government money which they have for decades. Additionally, their taxes are going up, so this is a bit of a double whammy.
3) Of their existing debt, €200-€300m is maturing and they need to refinance it. However, their balance book they need to raise it with is a lot worse than it was predicted to be, so it means that debt is going to be a lot more expensive than previously.
4) Their squad is aging. They have a lot of players who need replacing in the next two years, but they do not really have any that they can sell to raise funds with; Ramos, Kroos, Modric, Hazard, Bale and Benezema are all sunk costs.
Is it correct to compare them? Madrid had suffered from COVID, like all other clubs, but they’re hardly in a dangerous situation financially. Perez may have fecked up with the Super League, but he’s still a shrewd businessman with a lot of tricks up his sleeve.
Barca is another case, their wages fund is overblown and they still have no idea how to replace Messi if/when he leaves. They’ll need to think of something drastic to find their way out of this situation. Maybe a Qatari investment?
Barca is another case, their wages fund is overblown and they still have no idea how to replace Messi if/when he leaves. They’ll need to think of something drastic to find their way out of this situation. Maybe a Qatari investment?
He’s also still recovering from an injury that he should’ve recovered from 2 months ago. It’s a huge concern as this can really change the trajectory of his career.
Well, right now City, Chelsea, Pool, United, PSG, Bayern have better squads than these two so unless they can move players like Coutinho, Dembele, Isco, Hazard... I think it's gonna take at least another 2-3 seasons. This really should be PL's peak era.
That's a brand new information
Pre Ronaldo and Ronaldinho, there was a bigger gap between them and the rest than now. Real didnt reach the quarter finals of the CL for 5 years or something
like that.
Both need to rebuild and invest their money more wisely. They will be back challenging as usual
Not sure how that works with a member ownership structure. As for Madrid, Perez's 'trick up his sleeve' has typically been Spanish Government money, but that one has been taken away. Saudi money is a possibility but then they run into the same problem as Barca with their ownership structure.
No way to Saudi/Qatar pump in €100m's/€1bn's to only get a nice title at the club.
They still have the highest revenues in the world and both teams are stacked with talented young players. Pedri, Fati, Trincao, de Jong, Puig, Ilaix, Mingueza, Araujo, Dest, Vinicius, Rodrygo, Valverde, Militao, Mendy, ... The reason Real is broke is also the 800m € stadium that will increase their revenues significantly again, too.
After all they could just sign nobody for a few seasons, reduce their debts and would probably still qualify for the CL. Probably lose some ground on the European runner ups but be financially healthy again. But it's more likely that they'll just reduce their spendings but still buy a player here and there, try to sign a few on a free, etc. to stay competitive and get a some shots at titles.
For second tier clubs, now is the time to gain ground. The big dogs are broke, the smaller clubs can now cling onto their star players, maybe get an extension in for a better salary since there won't be absolutely crazy offers from Barca and co.
After all they could just sign nobody for a few seasons, reduce their debts and would probably still qualify for the CL. Probably lose some ground on the European runner ups but be financially healthy again. But it's more likely that they'll just reduce their spendings but still buy a player here and there, try to sign a few on a free, etc. to stay competitive and get a some shots at titles.
For second tier clubs, now is the time to gain ground. The big dogs are broke, the smaller clubs can now cling onto their star players, maybe get an extension in for a better salary since there won't be absolutely crazy offers from Barca and co.
You can add Chelsea to the list if FFP is being relaxed. Deepest squads and the ability to make like for like changes in a congested season. They’ve walked the competitions this year. We won a CL and league back to back and still cannot compete with those clubs economically. In a post covid world I don’t see how clubs can keep up.
Tbf, your lot are an example of what happens when you do not strengthen from a position of strength. Not saying you could've gone out and spent £100m's but there was definitely scope for your lot to to improve significantly with your PL/CL prize money but FSG rather they kept it.
What makes you think the other clubs aren't in trouble? Real and Barca are probably the front runners but United seemed to be running out of cash, too, last season with the dividens they had to pay and all that stuff. Juventus is in a similarly bad situation and Liverpool is far from being as financially potent as the Spanish giants anyway.
The reason Madrid could pull of a transfer like Mbappe is that they could convince a bank that this is an investment with a positive return. Spend 100m on him in the first year, get 150m out of him. Those transfers work like wonders from a marketing and brand perspective. But it has to be a galactico of this magnitude. Thing is, they won't be able to spend big on second tier players. Madrid and co. can lure pretty much every player from smaller clubs to them since they can afford to increase their salaries drastically.
Plus, I doubt that Barca could pull this off. They already have Messi and if they sign Mbappe, the diminishing returns are too small. Madrid have Hazard but he's pretty much done over there.
Partly, yes. Though I think it's a bit more nuanced.
Bale justified his wages from 2013 to 2018 and was an important player in a 4-CL winning team. The problem with him was that the club botched the sale, more than anything. Modric was not really cheap at the time, though not super expensive, then you have cases like Benzema who was quite expensive at 35m for a 21-year-old from Ligue 1, and Sergio Ramos who was outrageously expensive at 27m for an 18-year-old defender. Isco was also a little pricey at 30m.
I would say that Real Madrid don't usually get obvious good deals. They pay 'market price' for players that sometimes turn out to be much better. But very few cases like Kroos, who was objectively "cheap."
Right, let me rephrase itThat's a brand new information
Tweet was about net financial debt, i.e. how much money the club owed to others minus how much it was owed.
You picked out the statement about gross debt, which is an entirely different thing
Of course they’ll be back.
Was the post the tweet replied to was about net debt?Right, let me rephrase it
Tweet was about net financial debt, i.e. how much money the club owed to others minus how much it was owed.
You picked out the statement about gross debt, which is an entirely different thing
Also thanks, I know net debt and gross debt.
The Spanish government does not "wipe out" Real Madrid's debts nor does the Spanish government give Real Madrid piles of money. The fact that you keep repeating this nonsense suggests your comments should be taken with a massive grain of salt.
Yeah, €27m on a 18 year old CB in 1985 was outrageous
.However, seriously, what a servant to Real. Everyone talks about CR7 but for me, Ramos was possible even more important in some of those CL finals. Particularly 2014 and 2016.
What was the €200m in 2002 for? Real had a massive loan (for that time) maturing, then all of a sudden that land deal went through and it was all hunky dory again.
Yeah I agree with that, there was talk of a big money signing but covid getting in the way, but it sounds a lot like spin. I don’t know the finances however I don’t think they’re keeping the money. They just won’t invest any of their own when needed like in January.
The ESL has made it difficult to have sympathy, but unless UEFA or whoever can put meaningful restrictions in place I just genuinely don’t see how anyone keeps up with state backed clubs and Russian oligarchs.
Hopefully not. Never agreed with the way they hogged the revenue and essentially held anyone else from real progress creating a boring league. Now they have no money and we have 4 potential La Liga winners this year which is actually interesting again like the early 2000s
True, bit of a disjointed discussion
Anyways, debt doesn't really mean a club is in trouble. It's highly unlikely real madrid is in actual trouble, much more likely rather the club is currently paralyzed by it. Meaning Mbappé, etc are likely chimeras atm, unless we can shed significant fat off the wage bill(bale, hazard...) and sell some players for huge profits
How old is Ramos now? Must be over 50Yeah, €27m on a 18 year old CB in 1985 was outrageous
However, seriously, what a servant to Real. Everyone talks about CR7 but for me, Ramos was possible even more important in some of those CL finals. Particularly 2014 and 2016.
Spanish government money, loans from different banks, talks with Saudi, the recycling idea of resort in Abu Dhabi, he knows how to sell the image (probably better than anyone) and how to get money. He’s also a billioner himself and his construction business profits massively from his ties with football (take the Costa Rica contract, for example*), so he’ll always be interested in keeping it running as smoothly as possible.
* the Real Madrid brand seems to have played an important role in securing overseas governmental contracts for ACS – with major international signings for the club, such as Columbian James Rodríguez, the Mexican forward Javier Hernández and Costa Rican goalkeeper Keylor Navas coinciding with Pérez’s company winning construction deals worth hundreds of millions of dollars from their respective governments.
The state (the city in this case) didn't pay a penny for that land. They allowed a change of land's code and they actually profitted from that sale to private investors. They didn't pay money, they obtained money.
There is something people don't know which is, when Real Madrid acquired the training ground in the 50s it was at the outskirts of the city. The city grew for 50 years and that area became prime real estate location in the financial district
FSG are just like the other American owners. They see sport as something to make money out of via increasing the asset cost/milking the merchandise/brand. Essentially, they're all carpet baggers.
I mean lets be real, they only got you lot VVD and Alisson after Barca hit the crack pipe too hard and gave you insane money for Coutinho.
I agree that they're not necessarily 'keeping' the money, it is rather they are holding onto it as they want to hand to prevent themselves dipping into their own pockets as they see the club like stockholders see there shares. That is also why they went for furlough as soon as they could and tried to jack up ticket prices when the new stand was built.
Barca basically have most of a team for the next decade
........................ter Stengen..................
Dest........garcia.............arujo......?
.........f de jong.....puig......moriba
Trincao................fati.................pedri
Basically get a good young leftback (gaya?) And you pretty much have the basis of a very good squad for the forseable future
So yeah rumours of Barcelonas demise are imo greatly exaggerated
........................ter Stengen..................
Dest........garcia.............arujo......?
.........f de jong.....puig......moriba
Trincao................fati.................pedri
Basically get a good young leftback (gaya?) And you pretty much have the basis of a very good squad for the forseable future
So yeah rumours of Barcelonas demise are imo greatly exaggerated
A lot of projections there. They all look promising but there is a big difference from being a promising youngster to top player.
My point is it’s ironic a Rangers or Celtic fan commenting on 2 of the largest Spanish teams hoovering up the money and the league starting to die. Their ploy to get more money involved joining another competition. Does this sound familiar?
it off course does not stop you from commenting, I never said it did
Spanish clubs are an interesting case. I know we have flaked a load of shit for the ESL but Barcelona and Madrid need it more than English teams do.
Traditionally, Spanish clubs, when needed have been able to access a very favourable credit line with Spanish state banks, and have even been bailed out by the Spanish government. Since the European financial reform a few years ago, that credit line is gone. They're both in a big hole and they can't get out of it in the current climate. They both need to increase their revenue if they want to stay competitive.
Ronaldinho is a good case study. Deal was done with United, Ronaldinho himself told Kleberson "go to United and I'll see you there next week, I'm joining too". Then Barcelona tap their credit line, as they were skint at the time and all of a sudden he's pictured in a Barcelona shirt.
Personally I think we're looking at another 5 to 10 years of British (and oil/state funded) teams dominating European football.
Traditionally, Spanish clubs, when needed have been able to access a very favourable credit line with Spanish state banks, and have even been bailed out by the Spanish government. Since the European financial reform a few years ago, that credit line is gone. They're both in a big hole and they can't get out of it in the current climate. They both need to increase their revenue if they want to stay competitive.
Ronaldinho is a good case study. Deal was done with United, Ronaldinho himself told Kleberson "go to United and I'll see you there next week, I'm joining too". Then Barcelona tap their credit line, as they were skint at the time and all of a sudden he's pictured in a Barcelona shirt.
Personally I think we're looking at another 5 to 10 years of British (and oil/state funded) teams dominating European football.
The real question is are we as fans expecting too much from owners?
yeah probably all wont make it
Just like we will see some of Greenwood, Diallo, Mcneil, Hughill, Mejrib, Forson fall by the wayside - but I suspect a few will make it and I think that the only ones at barca who are not already full internationals are Puig (regular U21) and Moriba (only 18) both if whom i fully expect to be called up after the Euros that Barcas players are perhaps a little further ahead in development than uniteds so far and therefore whilst some wont make it i think quite a few will