Klopp and Pep are quite clearly both great managers. Pep may have a few question marks by virtue of his elite privileged varsity CV, but it’s undoubted that he’s managed to instil a very recognisable style of play at all of these clubs. Furthermore City finished level on points with us the year he was appointed, and despite his admittedly ridiculous outlay, it nevertheless took him just one season to get them playing his way to devastating effect.
Klopp joined Liverpool when they were even further below us, when we were regularly accused of being “in crisis”... and despite the best efforts of people on this forum to pretend it took him ages to make his mark, he actually reached the Europa final in his first season, and was on a pretty noticeable upward curve with every passing year... ironically only curtailed when we appointed Jose. Both were examples of good managers not taking particularly long to make their teams a success, with one ultimately only being brought low by their own personal deficiencies, rather than the legitimacy of their professional ones.
They are both great managers, but that's kind of the point. Outside of those two, you would struggle to name another manager you could put in the same bracket. Everyone else is either unproven or hit and miss at best. Plus even with Klopp and Pep, they didn't suddenly crop up overnight as world class managers. They became that by being given the opportunity and platform to do it.
Pep took over a team with literally about 8 of the best 10 players in the world in it, and Messi backing them up. Then left them and joined Bayern at the same time as they literally just bought all the best players in their league...then did the same at City. It's not exactly a dampener on his ability but it is not an opportunity or platform any manager at United at this moment will have. If Pep was looking for a job right now and we were looking for a manager, most likely he just wouldn't come here, because he wouldn't think he could succeed.
Klopp, as much as I hate to say it, I think it's actually pretty pointless using as a bench mark, as I think he's unique and tbh a bit of a miracle worker. I don't think it took any time at all for the improvement to be there when he took over at Liverpool. He's the closest thing there is to a modern day Sir Alex. Even so it DID still take him a few years to get Liverpool to a point where they could challenge for anything significant. Getting to a Europa League final is something Arsenal did last season. Something Ole could actually quite realistically do this season. It's nice but it's not a benchmark for anything. His appointment also coincided with a clear change in strategy from the club. Before Klopp was there they had idiots going round threatening people on twitter for correctly guessing which players they were going to sign...they were literally wasting time and effort doing this. There was clearly a change in strategy above Klopp in order for Klopp to come in.
No one is saying we should do this. Again, it’s an example of this weird reactionary rationale, where the fear of one thing, requires us to pivot dramatically to the diametric opposite!
Also, in some small sense, we do nevertheless need to make our peace with a form of this. Ferguson’s lengthy mercurial tenure is never going to be repeated. Never! We have to accept this. The worst thing we can do is keep desperately trying to recreate it. It’s exactly what ruined Liverpool’s boot room in the 90s.
Going forward, especially as a big club, we need to accept that there’s going to be a lot of regime changes over the years. A lot more than we’re used to. Hopefully not too many, and ideally some longer than others, but it’s going to happen. It’s not evil. It’s simply what every other club has been doing for the last quarter of a century.
Well yes, but I don't think giving a manager who inherited a mess more than 12 months to sort it out is exactly trying to create another Ferguson. It's just being realistic. I think you are underestimating just what a state we are currently in.
In fact I don't think we're even at a point where we can worry about who the manager is really, beyond them not being toxic as Jose had become, because currently it is impossible for a manager to succeed here. The wage bill is out of control with players on high wages and little incentive. Last season we had a situation (in large part manifactured by Woodward) where we had literally over a third of our squad running their contracts down or wanting out...and we've lost a majority of these players. We've kept at least one against their will. There is no starting point to build anything or even work out a plan from.
There’s a chasmic difference between “a quick fix” and “it’ll take 3-4 years before we start to see progress. Just be patient. The lowest win percentage in a century is fine because Jesse Lingard, or something.”
“Not failing” is an incredibly low bar for a Manchester United manager, and a grace that would never be afforded to a non-former playing legend. Regardless of whether a record low win percentage with a side who finished 2nd within a mere two iPhone cycles, and deliberately sanctioned the sale of several squad players without replacing them, can be reasonably considered “not failing”, tbf...
I think it's very difficult to define what "not failing" even is for Ole at the moment, which I think is what causes a lot of the split and disagreement over the job he is doing. I honestly couldn't tell you if I think he's doing a good job or a terrible job or anything inbetween.
Again it's fine to bleat on about record low points totals (I mean, it's not a record low unless you are very selective...we've literally been relegated in the past), but it is dissmissive of the overall mess the club has gotten itself into, prior to Ole arriving and even since, due to things that are neither within his remit or control. Moyes, LVG and Jose have all had to put up with Woodward's fumbling around, fecking them about, and general incompetence, but Moyes inherited a league winning squad. Van Gaal was allowed to sign about 500 players, Mourinho took over a squad of about 500 players then got given Zlatan and Pogba.
Ole has taken over a squad where half of them have had enough and wanted out and the most of the other half aren't actually very good. It doesn;t mean he's doing a good job, but I'm really not sure who would be doing a good job in these circumstances. Saying "if he wasn't a club legend he'd be sacked" is all well and good, but say he was sacked....then he'd be replaced by say, Pochettino (at best), and he'd what, carry on doing the same thing? What else realistically could you expect him or anyone else to do? We are not in nearly the same situation as when Liverpool hired Klopp or City hired Pep.
The problem with us letting players go and not replacing them, is that most of them were already on their way or wanted out before Ole was here, and he DID want to replace them. He very clearly wants midfielders and a creative attacking player. He wanted a striker. It's presumptious and I think a bit dishonest to think that Ole can't see what we can all see in regards to our squad. The two biggest loses for me are Herrera and Lukaku. One of these was already running their contract down when Ole took over and the consensus is he left due to not wanting to take a pay cut. The other, according to himself, wanted to leave after his FIRST GAME for us, about 18 months before Ole was here.
I agree absolutely. Woodward fecked Mourinho. But at the same time, he was weirdly also right? Because if we’d sold Pogba and Martial and bought Willian and Peresic, I doubt we’d be in a much better position!... Plus, the fact Jose’s early pre-meltdown tenure was a relative success, kinda proves the possibility of success under the right, suitable kind of good manager. Does it not? We finished 2nd and reached the final of every cup we entered bar one under the wrong manager... how is falling to “were a decade away from competing, accept it” in under 2 years anything but a fecking huge failure!?
I think Mourinho gave us no choice because he had become destructive, but I wouldn't say Woodward was right...he decided to deliberately not back Mourinho...I mean, ok, if he'd started being a weirdo...but then he didn't sack or replace him either? He waited an entire summer and then half of the next season. Why? I mean is it actually even a surprise that not backing Mourinho and then keeping him here for another 8 months resulted in him causing problems and being destructive? Literally everyone knew and was actually saying what was going to happen, except apparently Woodward.
I don't know what relative success is really. We won a cup and the Europa League, but with a MUCH stronger squad than we have now. Then we finished 2nd but we were miles away from challenging and fortunate to be 2nd really. Pretty much every game we won after Christmas was somewhere between slightly fortunate and freakishly lucky. Jose then, as mentioned, proclaimed this (finishing 2nd by about 25 points), as his "greatest achievement"...is this something he would say if he thought he was being given the backing needed to succeed? I know he likes a moan, but he has never said anything like this when he has failed to win at Madrid, Chelsea, etc.
But it’s been a year now? We’re still losing 2 games a month with no discernible style of play!
It’s absolutely Woodward’s fault for being unable to recognise any of the many talented up and coming modern managers out there, by virtue of being an accounting gnome rather than a football man... but that doesn’t mean we should accept Ole as the best we can do. Surely, if anything, that’s the most exonerating pro-Woodward stance you could possible take? He’s relying on that take, in fact. He gains nothing by having to walk back his impulsive permanent appointment of a likeable novice. He’s more than happy to wait this out in the desperate deluded hope that the gambit will work out, and he can ultimately take the credit. And it’s bizzare just how many fans are champing at the bit to go along with this!
No, I just think that as long as you have Woodward doing what he does, there's not much point worrying about who the manager is. Jose had to go because he was toxic and the player clearly weren't trying. Neither of these things apply to Ole at this point in time. HE's actually getting an awful lot out of the players if anything. One of them was playing and winning games for him with a broken back!
It is like trying to find the best driver before fixing your broken car...it isn't going to matter. The best driver still wont win you a race and unless they're an idiot wont want to drive your car, plus you have no way of even telling how fast your current driver even is. That's where we're at for me.
Surely the equivalent of Klopp would manage to make us a great and competitive team again? Considering how the actual Klopp managed to do that with a club who hadnt won the league for 3 decades, were a perpetual punchline, finished below us when he was appointed, and below us again less than 2 years ago, how are we even entertaining the notion that the idea of even somewhat competiting with them again is some comically absurd fantasy!? We‘re the only side to take points off them this season! I’m even pretty sure we’ve beaten Klopp more than he’s beaten us in his tenure. Under three different managers! (citation needed) by all rights “the equivalent of Klopp” can only be an upgrade on these stats!
how have we normalised this absurd idea that the teams who’ve leap frogged us in a flash, are now so far ahead that we need to accept a couple of Ls a month and no discernibly obvious coaching as just simply where we are now... and will be for 3-4 years... because we also shouldn’t be overspending anymore either... so buying 3 British players a year on the slow road to ideologically pure progress, and keeping our fingers crossed for an unexpected away win at Spurs, is just who we are now. And you’re a bad bad fan to be so negative about it!
feck that! The right, progressive modern manager, backed in the same way we backed Jose and LVG, would get us competitive again by the back end of next season...
I don't buy into the idea that we're 10 years away from being succesful or anything like it. I think it's dramatic nonsense. I do think nothing will change until we change our approach, and that isn't just "oh lets sack the manager again"...we have tried this, multiple times. At this point it'd be the definition of insanity if we do that and nothing else yet again.
The equivalent of Klopp just isn't something that exists. If Klopp was available now I'd want us to get him, even though it would be cruel on Ole. It's just how it is. It'd be an obvious move to make...but Klopp isn't available. It just seems to me a bit like saying to Barcelona "yeah just sign the young equivalent of Messi and it'll be fine"...I mean, in theory yeah, but as an actual plan, that isn't going to work is it?
What do we have available? Pochettino...a guy who won nothing at Spurs and was then sacked for triumphantly marching them into the bottom half of the table. That's the equivalent to Klopp in the same way you can say a toblerone bar is the equivalent to the pyramids. Anyone else is even more of a gamble than he is.
And again, we didn't try to get the equivalent of Klopp, we tried to get Klopp, and he told us to feck off when we pitched our plan to him. So the equivalent to him would therefore do exactly the same. We need to have a clue what we're doing before being able to figure out who would be good at doing it.