ISIS in Iraq and Syria

carvajal

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Don´t you think that with another american government they could try some ground invasion?
do you think that if Putin was not helping Syria and blocking ground operations, and attack would be considered?
or what really matters is the desire not to disturb Saudi Arabia / avoid joint operations with Iran
 

Kaos

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Don´t you think that with another american government they could try some ground invasion?
do you think that if Putin was not helping Syria and blocking ground operations, and attack would be considered?
or what really matters is the desire not to disturb Saudi Arabia / avoid joint operations with Iran
A ground invasion is a really bad idea, people don't seem to understand this. Why would you attempt to solve this crisis by implementing the very thing that caused it.

Like I've said, put pressure on Turkey to properly police its border, put pressure on the Saudis and Qatars to choke the funding that's happening from within their borders and swallow your pride and work with Iran and then you'll find ISIS will start to look severely compromised.

It won't make the Gulf Arab nations happy but I'd like to think regional stability, the lives of millions of people and defeating a macabre deathcult should probably be important than not hurting the feelings of a few autocratic Sheikhs and despotic monarchs who are way in over their heads.
 

milemuncher777

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Syria conflict: Marketplace air strikes 'kill 80'
Activists say at least 80 people have died after government air strikes on a marketplace in the rebel-held town of Douma, near Damascus.

Around 200 people were reportedly injured in the attack.

Government forces have been regularly attacking rebel-held Douma and its surrounding areas in recent months by air raids and helicopter barrel bomb attacks.

Hundreds of civilians have been killed alongside opposition fighters.

Images uploaded by activists said to be of the aftermath of the air strikes showed the marketplace completely destroyed, with surrounding buildings in ruins and vehicles on fire.

The Local Coordination Committees, a network of anti-government activists, said that rescue workers are digging through the rubble in search of survivors.

A Douma-based activist told AP the situation was "catastrophic", adding that clinics in the area were full and many of the wounded were being rushed in civilian cars to other medical facilities since ambulances were overwhelmed.

The latest reported strikes coincide with the first visit to the country by the UN humanitarian chief Stephen O'Brien since he took up the post in May.

Correspondents say Douma - which is only around 7 miles (11 km) from central Damascus - has been a constant target of government air strikes aimed at stopping rebels firing rockets from there into the capital, including the Islamist rebel group Jaysh al-Islam.




Secular and Champion of Democracy.....
 

Raoul

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A ground invasion is a really bad idea, people don't seem to understand this. Why would you attempt to solve this crisis by implementing the very thing that caused it.

Like I've said, put pressure on Turkey to properly police its border, put pressure on the Saudis and Qatars to choke the funding that's happening from within their borders and swallow your pride and work with Iran and then you'll find ISIS will start to look severely compromised.

It won't make the Gulf Arab nations happy but I'd like to think regional stability, the lives of millions of people and defeating a macabre deathcult should probably be important than not hurting the feelings of a few autocratic Sheikhs and despotic monarchs who are way in over their heads.
That's not a coherent strategy either since it would allow ISIS to continue operating within its own territory, and would more or less guarantee a caliphate. You need boots on the ground to go city by city which will require a professional military, not a bunch of ragtag locals. Also, the only way to get rid of ISIS is to permanently secure Syria, which will eventually require a military intervention and residual peacekeeping force.
 

2cents

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Seems sensible enough to me:

America Should Aim to Contain, not Destroy, ISIS


by Aymenn Jawad al-Tamimi

http://www.meforum.org/5438/contain-isis

What to do about Syria? How to defeat the Islamic State? Think of all the op-eds and policy papers that aim to provide answers to these questions. But is there actually anything to them? What about the current U.S. approach?

To begin with, one can readily agree that the U.S. train-and-equip program for Syrian rebels to fight ISIS has been misguided from the beginning. The notion that such a force can only take on ISIS and not the Assad regime has no credibility among the overwhelming majority of Syrian rebels, regardless of ideological orientation, as the fight against the two is seen as inherently intertwined. Little wonder then that the initial batch recently inserted into Syria had only 60 recruits.

Further, U.S. policymakers' grasp of the ground situation appears to have been grossly out of touch with reality. They failed to anticipate a clash with Syria's al Qaeda-linked Nusra Front, which has also been targeted in American airstrikes. It is clear to any observer who has visited or tracks online the Azaz district into which the U.S.-trained rebels were inserted that the area had a notable Nusra Front presence that would suspect any American proxies.

Meanwhile, U.S.-led coalition airstrikes, bound as they are in part by political considerations, have produced mixed results. They have been most effective in the north, in support of the Syrian Kurdish units -- known as the People's Protection Units, or YPG -- that have deprived ISIS of significant control of north Raqqa province and Hasakah, such that the YPG has also taken over many parts previously held by the Assad regime.

On the other hand, understandable reluctance to launch airstrikes that can be seen as directly supporting the regime means that ISIS advances through the Homs desert have largely been unimpeded. ISIS's control of the heartlands of its territories in central and southeastern Syria remains largely unchallenged, and revenue streams have not been seriously hurt. Furthermore, hundreds of civilians have been killed by U.S.-led airstrikes, according to a recent report.

The YPG, for all its successes, will only go so far in attempting to take territory from ISIS. The same goes for the expected establishment of a Turkish "safe zone" in the north Aleppo countryside that may clear ISIS out of the remaining northern border areas and has prompted the withdrawal of Nusra Front fighters. This expected "safe zone" is a small, strictly local initiative driven more by Turkey's desire to stop the YPG from linking up with its third canton of Afrin.

Given the failure of current U.S. policy, the main alternative proposed is broader support for rebel groups -- either bringing the downfall of the regime or forcing a political settlement that can then bring about more effective local forces to take on ISIS. In this context, arguably the largest single rebel group -- Ahrar al-Sham -- has taken to Western media, calling for more engagement with the group from the West and the international community, while professing commitment to a "moderate" vision of Syria, including protection of minorities.

While the Ahrar al-Sham op-ed seems superficially impressive, it overlooks the most important issue of the group's ties to al Qaeda. Linked to this point is the subsequent inability or lack of will to oppose some of the more unsavory sides of the al Qaeda presence. For example, rhetoric of commitment to minorities cannot conceal the fact that Ahrar al-Sham has done nothing about the forced conversion to Sunni Islam of the Druze in Idlib at the hands of Nusra Front. Indeed, Ahrar al-Sham, like many other rebel groups, appears to pretend as though this has not happened at all.

In reality, when one reads between the lines of the op-ed, it becomes clear that what Ahrar al-Sham is advocating is Sunni Arab majoritarianism with a sectarian model of politics that cannot be seen as conducive to stability in Syria, even post-Assad. Generally left out of the debate in this context is the problem of simultaneously empowering the rebels and the YPG, when the former tend to view the latter as working towards taqsim Souria (the "division of Syria").

One thinks of the headache of Kurdish-Arab territorial disputes in post-2003 Iraq: such qualms are and will be no less of a nightmare in a post-Assad Syria. Add to this intra-rebel rivalries with power, ideological disputes and likely continued fighting from pro-regime and ethnic minority militias, and it can be seen just how difficult forming any unified force to take on ISIS will be even with the regime gone. The chaos that has engulfed Libya in the post-Gaddafi era is instructive in this regard, as is the civil war and anarchy in Somalia of nearly a quarter century since the downfall of its dictatorial regime in 1991.

Nor should one pretend that the way forward lies in broader engagement with the regime. The regime is seeing its own population increasingly fragmented among different militia factions and continues to lose peripheral territories to its rivals. It is unlikely to be able to unite the country under its rule again. Working with the regime and by extension its main ally Iran, can only be seen as a recipe for permanent warfare.

In other words, there are no viable solutions. There is generally little honesty about what it would actually take to rebuild Syria at this point. For many years if not decades, it would take a large international ground force in Syria, enforcing the disarmament of all militia actors and implementing a grand nation-building project embodied in a government seen as acceptable to all sides. Unsurprisingly, no willpower or consensus exists anywhere for such an initiative.

Sadly, we are only "in the early stages of what will be a much longer war," as Rania Abouzeid put it. The Islamic State is here to stay for the long term, if not indefinitely, and the coalition should accordingly give up on pretensions to "degrade and destroy" it. Instead, the coalition should focus on containment, providing humanitarian aid for refugees and civilians and establishing a no-fly zone to stop indiscriminate killing of civilians and destruction of what remains of infrastructure in Syria.

Any talk of restoring stability to Syria and defeating ISIS without realistic acknowledgment of what would be required is only an invitation to mission creep and unnecessary waste of lives and resources.
 

Vooon

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We went into Iraq on a false premise, and we left it in a fragile state. We helped create this situation. Why were we so quick to go in on the ground along with the whole shock and awe stuff, yet we appear to be letting this happen?
Interesting question, but I believe the only way to get this sorted is getting a wide alliance of local forces set up and ready to fight/rebel. If a large western ground invasion was to take place again all this would need to be planned ahead. Rory Stewart has some interesting views on these issues.

On the other hand I'd like to see the leaders who planned this whole mess punished, fecking send the lot of them to Hague to rot with those others butchers.
 

2cents

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Absolute hero. If Syria ever becomes a real country again, he's the type of guy whose legacy will be used to unite the place, naming streets after him, etc.
 

Sky1981

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A ground invasion is a really bad idea, people don't seem to understand this. Why would you attempt to solve this crisis by implementing the very thing that caused it.

Like I've said, put pressure on Turkey to properly police its border, put pressure on the Saudis and Qatars to choke the funding that's happening from within their borders and swallow your pride and work with Iran and then you'll find ISIS will start to look severely compromised.

It won't make the Gulf Arab nations happy but I'd like to think regional stability, the lives of millions of people and defeating a macabre deathcult should probably be important than not hurting the feelings of a few autocratic Sheikhs and despotic monarchs who are way in over their heads.
That'll put the strain on many countries, and the terrorist will still find their ways, there's too many holes to watch and too many nutters wanting to die. If any at this rate anything less that seriously damaging their structures will only consolidate their position IMHO
 

VidaRed

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That'll put the strain on many countries, and the terrorist will still find their ways, there's too many holes to watch and too many nutters wanting to die. If any at this rate anything less that seriously damaging their structures will only consolidate their position IMHO
Without arming and funding the terrorists are of no significant threat.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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We went into Iraq on a false premise, and we left it in a fragile state. We helped create this situation. Why were we so quick to go in on the ground along with the whole shock and awe stuff, yet we appear to be letting this happen?
Andrew becewich summed it up. The article is slightly dated, but still valid.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...c0585e-4353-11e4-b47c-f5889e061e5f_story.html
Hindsight is a nice way to pontificate. Do you think the world would be better off with Saddam still in charge? Without US intervention, he'd probably have built ties with North korea and the regions may have become as bad as it currently is now. What is the alternative? The Iraqi population had every change to form a decent government after Saddam and they goofed it up totally playing religious politics.

US created this is such a lame excuse that complete ignores the socio religious conflict of the entire region. The shia/sunni divide predates Gulf war and was more a direct cause of IS than anything US could have done. Saddam was a major player in Sunni atrocities against Shia populace and when it became a human rights issues, he needed to be overthrown. Done. But the inability of people and to live with each other just ensured that IS just took over. I frankly do not see any justification on 'US caused this' argument.
 

Kaos

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Hindsight is a nice way to pontificate. Do you think the world would be better off with Saddam still in charge? Without US intervention, he'd probably have built ties with North korea and the regions may have become as bad as it currently is now. What is the alternative? The Iraqi population had every change to form a decent government after Saddam and they goofed it up totally playing religious politics.

US created this is such a lame excuse that complete ignores the socio religious conflict of the entire region. The shia/sunni divide predates Gulf war and was more a direct cause of IS than anything US could have done. Saddam was a major player in Sunni atrocities against Shia populace and when it became a human rights issues, he needed to be overthrown. Done. But the inability of people and to live with each other just ensured that IS just took over. I frankly do not see any justification on 'US caused this' argument.
Not quite:

1) The Shia-Sunni divide does predate the Gulf War but prior to it Iraq maintained a secular fabric. Now we have a wall built in Baghdad seperating Sunni and Shia neighbourhoods.

2) Saddam wasn't overthrown due to human rights issues, but rather due to some fabricated pretenses of him having WMDs. Besides, it was well known of the atrocities he had committed against Kurds, Shias and Iranians but yet he was still allowed to persist.

3) The reason IS were able to take over was because the US completely dismantled Iraq's military infrastructure, leaving it unable to defend itself. Hence IS were easily able to swallow territory in the north.

You're not wrong in saying that internal sectarian struggles are partly to blame, but the US's invasion, decimation of the country and dissolution of the armed forces had made it ripe for IS to make the gains they have.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Not quite:

1) The Shia-Sunni divide does predate the Gulf War but prior to it Iraq maintained a secular fabric. Now we have a wall built in Baghdad seperating Sunni and Shia neighbourhoods.

2) Saddam wasn't overthrown due to human rights issues, but rather due to some fabricated pretenses of him having WMDs. Besides, it was well known of the atrocities he had committed against Kurds, Shias and Iranians but yet he was still allowed to persist.

3) The reason IS were able to take over was because the US completely dismantled Iraq's military infrastructure, leaving it unable to defend itself. Hence IS were easily able to swallow territory in the north.

You're not wrong in saying that internal sectarian struggles are partly to blame, but the US's invasion, decimation of the country and dissolution of the armed forces had made it ripe for IS to make the gains they have.
1) Secularism under Saddam? Really? He was pro-Sunni and that's it. Think Shia killing would have continues had he been allowed to rule. Secular is one word that I never associate with Saddam.

2) The human rights atrocities and intolerable cruelty his regime dealt out is reason enough to get his overthrown.

3) There has been numerous links between Saddam's rule and ISIS. Many of his ex-military officers are part of IS leadership. It would not be surprising if officers who committed the anti-Shia killings under Saddam, now continuing under IS. Saddam would have well served as the unofficial face of IS there. It's just a change of name. One can argue that Saddam was the 'lesser evil' but that is something that only hindsight can do...and even it's just a theory.

It's a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation. Evil dictatorship or a civil war? No good choices there. IS was already in the region. Saddam perfectly qualifies under the definition of IS leader. It has been there before and continues after. US may have led to change in face of the organization, but definitely not the creation of it.
 

PedroMendez

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Hindsight is a nice way to pontificate. Do you think the world would be better off with Saddam still in charge? Without US intervention, he'd probably have built ties with North korea and the regions may have become as bad as it currently is now. What is the alternative? The Iraqi population had every change to form a decent government after Saddam and they goofed it up totally playing religious politics.

US created this is such a lame excuse that complete ignores the socio religious conflict of the entire region. The shia/sunni divide predates Gulf war and was more a direct cause of IS than anything US could have done. Saddam was a major player in Sunni atrocities against Shia populace and when it became a human rights issues, he needed to be overthrown. Done. But the inability of people and to live with each other just ensured that IS just took over. I frankly do not see any justification on 'US caused this' argument.
you are misinterpreting, what he is trying to say. Nobody claims, that the middle east was some kind of peaceful heaven until the evil Americans came and messed it up. Regardless of any foreign intervention, there would be fighting and struggle. The point is, that the USA is constantly intervening for more than 30 years and it is still totally fecked up. The long-term success is non-existent. One major humanitarian crisis after another; one war after another; one dictator after another.
What is the point in interventions, that devastate entire countries, when things don´t get better afterwards? US interventions in the region didn´t start after 9/11 but decades earlier. It is easy to move the bucket to a point, where the USA might have been the reason for Saddam staying in power (or for many other despots who are oh so terrible....where is your outrage about Sisi?). There are so many terrible individual decisions, that it is really hard to keep track. The USA is one actor, that is making bad things worse - for over 30 years. They are not the only cause for all the suffering and all the conflicts, but contribute quite a bit. The irony is, that the USA isn´t gaining enough to profit from all that. The whole thing started following messed up cold-war reasoning, that should be a thing of the past; logic that was never really valid in the first place.
You don´t need hindsight to know, that any military intervention will fail in the long run. The reasons for them were always skewed and those politics won´t succeed in the future. The bolt bit is so incredibly hypocritical, that it is hard to respond in a productive manner. No, the USA didn´t intervene because the humanitarian situation became so terrible, that ignoring it wasn´t an option. Millions of people died before and after and nobody was interested.
 

Kaos

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Tough titties, she was indirectly supporting the murder of innocent men, women and children. Children are obviously too young to know better and should be allowed back but she can indeed live with her mistakes.
 

2cents

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Turkey to hold snap elections 1 November
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34018497
Any chance this brings about a change in their policy towards Syria / IS
This article explains Erdogan's motivations quite well - basically the apparent change of stance vis-a-vis the Islamic State is aimed at correcting the AKP's losses in the June vote in the coming elections rather than vice versa: http://www.politico.com/magazine/st...ogan-long-game-chess-121603.html#.Vds-sE3bK72
 

2cents

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Syrian rebels: Turkey tipped al Qaida group to U.S.-trained fighters

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/middle-east/article32206167.html

The kidnapping of a group of U.S.-trained moderate Syrians moments after they entered Syria last month to confront the Islamic State was orchestrated by Turkish intelligence, multiple rebel sources have told McClatchy.

The rebels say that the tipoff to al Qaida’s Nusra Front [URL='http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/world/middle-east/article29673142.html']enabled Nusra to snatch many of the 54 graduates
of the $500 million program on July 29 as soon as they entered Syria, dealing a humiliating blow to the Obama administration’s plans for confronting the Islamic State.

Rebels familiar with the events said they believe the arrival plans were leaked because Turkish officials were worried that while the group’s intended target was the Islamic State, the U.S.-trained Syrians would form a vanguard for attacking Islamist fighters that Turkey is close to, including Nusra and another major Islamist force, Ahrar al Sham.

A senior official at the Turkish Foreign Ministry, who spoke only on the condition of anonymity, declined to respond to questions about the incident, saying any discussion of Turkey’s relationship with Nusra was off limits.


Other Turkish officials acknowledged the likely accuracy of the claims, though none was willing to discuss the topic for attribution. One official from southern Turkey said the arrival plans for the graduates of the so-called train-and-equip program were leaked to Nusra in hopes the rapid disintegration of the program would push the Americans into expanding the training and arming of rebel groups focused on toppling the government of Syrian President Bashar Assad.

In Washington, Pentagon spokesman Navy Capt. Jeff Davis said the U.S. military, which oversees the program, had seen “no indications that Turkish officials alerted the Nusra Front to the movements” of the U.S.-trained forces.

“Turkey is a NATO ally, close friend of the United States and an important partner in the international coalition” against the Islamic State, he said in an email.

The United States and Turkey have clashed for years over what U.S. officials characterize as Turkey’s willingness to work with Nusra, which the U.S. declared a foreign terrorist organization nearly three years ago. Turkey also has openly criticized the train-and-equip program for its insistence that participants agree to focus their efforts on defeating the Islamic State, not on battling Assad.

The abductions opened the program to ridicule in the United States, where supporters of arming Syrian rebels quickly used it to make their case that Obama administration policy toward the Syrian conflict is inept.


“Only the Americans and the Turks knew” about the plans for the train-and-equip fighters to enter Syria, said an officer of Division 30, the rebel group with which the newly trained Syrians were to work. “We have sources who tell us the Turks warned Nusra that they would be targeted by this group.”

The Division 30 officer asked not to be identified for his own safety and because Nusra still holds 22 of his comrades in Azzaz, a Syrian town just south of the Turkish border.

“Right now the only thing keeping our men alive is that Turkey does not want them executed – al Qaida always executes Arabs who work for the CIA,” he said. He suggested that Turkey was trying “to leverage the incident into an expanded role in the north for the Islamists in Nusra and Ahrar” and to persuade the United States to “speed up the training of rebels.”

Division 30 spokesman Capt. Ammar al Wawi stopped short of saying Turkey had betrayed the operation, though he agreed that the only people aware of the trainees’ plans to enter Syria were Turkish and American staffers at a joint command center in Gaziantep. He grew visibly uncomfortable when pressed on the subject.

“I have to live here in Turkey and have been targeted for kidnapping or assassination twice in the last month,” he said. “But we know someone aligned with Nusra informed them of our presence. They were taken within 10 minutes.”

Among those abducted was the Division 30 commander, Col. Nadim Hassan. “We would have never allowed him to go inside if we had known that Nusra would target them,” al Wawi said.

Another rebel commander, interviewed in the Turkish city of Sanliurfa, about 30 miles north of the Syrian border, said he was not surprised Nusra would target the U.S.-trained fighters. In the end, he said, the ideologies of Nusra and Ahrar al Sham are not all that different from that of the Islamic State, which he referred to as “Daash,” its Arabic acronym.

“Nusra are al Qaida by their own admission,” said the commander, who asked not to be named because his unit received some weapons and support from Turkey. “And there’s no ideological difference between Daash and the Nusra Front, just a political fight for control. All of the top Nusra commanders were once in the Islamic State.”

He said Nusra hostility toward U.S.-trained rebels would be understandable. “Remember,” he said, “America has targeted Nusra with some airstrikes.”

He said that while some Syrian rebels have been willing to coordinate with Nusra and Ahrar al Sham in offensives against Syrian government positions, that cooperation is likely to end at some point and Turkey was aware of that.

“They don’t want anything bad to happen to their allies – Nusra and Ahrar al Sham – along the border and they know that both the Americans and the Syrian people will eventually recognize that there’s no difference between groups like Nusra, Ahrar and Daash,” he said.

Mustafa Abdi, a spokesman for the Kurdish People’s Protection Units, or YPG by their Kurdish initials, said he, too, has been told Turkey leaked the arrival of the U.S.-trained fighters. He suggested the effort was part of a Turkish effort to persuade the United States to cooperate more with the groups Turkey views as its allies in Syria.

“They want the Americans to train and equip rebels but only on their terms and to confront both the regime and the Islamic State,” he said. “This incident not only embarrassed the Americans and made the Free Syrian Army programs look weak compared to Nusra, but also makes working with Turkey on their terms even more important.”

Turkish officials have been openly critical of the United States for coordinating its bombing campaign in northern Syria with the YPG, which has proved to be the most successful group battling the Islamic State in Syria.

Turkey sees the YPG as aligned with its longtime nemesis, the Kurdistan Workers Party, or PKK, which has fought a three-decade-long insurgency for greater autonomy for Turkey’s large Kurdish population. But in coordination with U.S. airstrikes, the YPG has driven Islamic State fighters from at least a dozen Syrian towns, including Tal Abyad, a major crossing point on the Turkish border.

The Turkey-U.S. conflict over how to confront the Islamic State has been a key point of friction between the two NATO allies since the U.S. began its bombing campaign against the group a year ago. Only last month did Turkey agree to allow manned American aircraft to launch missions from Incirlik Air Base in southern Turkey. The first mission took off Aug. 12.

But the disagreement on strategy dates to much earlier in the Syrian conflict, when American officials declared Nusra to be just another name for al Qaida in Iraq, the Islamic State’s predecessor organization. Turkey said the designation overlooked the fact that it was by far the most effective force fighting the Syrian government, and Turkish officials resisted U.S. efforts to persuade them to stop working with Nusra, even though Turkey also declared the group a terrorist organization.

Aymenn al Tamimi, an expert on Syrian and Iraqi jihadist groups for the Philadelphia-based Middle East Forum, said Turkish support for what he called “the Salafi-Jihadi-Islamist coalition in the north” is clear.

He said that support is likely both ideological and tactical. Noting that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s political party also espouses Islamist goals, Tamimi suggested “Erdogan and his allies would ideologically be sympathetic to Islamist groups.” Tactically, the success Nusra and Ahrar al Sham have had against the Assad government would also be attractive. “There’s a case to be made they are the most effective forces in the north,” he said.
[/URL]
 

Nucks

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1) Secularism under Saddam? Really? He was pro-Sunni and that's it. Think Shia killing would have continues had he been allowed to rule. Secular is one word that I never associate with Saddam.

2) The human rights atrocities and intolerable cruelty his regime dealt out is reason enough to get his overthrown.

3) There has been numerous links between Saddam's rule and ISIS. Many of his ex-military officers are part of IS leadership. It would not be surprising if officers who committed the anti-Shia killings under Saddam, now continuing under IS. Saddam would have well served as the unofficial face of IS there. It's just a change of name. One can argue that Saddam was the 'lesser evil' but that is something that only hindsight can do...and even it's just a theory.

It's a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation. Evil dictatorship or a civil war? No good choices there. IS was already in the region. Saddam perfectly qualifies under the definition of IS leader. It has been there before and continues after. US may have led to change in face of the organization, but definitely not the creation of it.
This is honestly kind of a load of BS.

This isn't damned if you do, damned if you don't. Its a called "the evil you know". Was Saddam a nice guy? No. Was he pretty awful? Ya. Was he pretty mellow for a psychotic dictator? Also yes.

What you have in IS is a much worse situation with a potential for much, much, MUCH worse. Saddam was predictable. You could count on him to ultimately make decisions that were in his best interest and that means to NOT go poking around inciting and otherwise cause much wider problems.

IS has no best interest. This is more or less a do or die situation and in the process IS has attracted every rag tag ground of malcontents who just want to watch the world burn. They are predictable only in that they have nothing to lose. Their end game is significantly worse than Saddam being in charge.

Now, was it predictable that IS would be the result of Iraq2.0? No, but it was predictable that if you destroyed the infrastructure of the country and then supplanted the established power structure you were going to create a power vacuum and that while Saddam may not have been a great Shia friend, there wasn't whole sale sectarian civil war with market place bombs going off every other week killing hundreds. Without someone on top keeping things somewhat "ok", there was going to be a scramble and IS is the result of that scramble and other scrambles in the region.

This isn't damned if you do damned if you don't. This is, we made a shit situation worse.

On the flipside I think the current stance regarding IS is absolutely fine and in the long run might actually do more to help correct the situation in the middle-east than any direct intervention ever could.

Remember how I said Saddam was predictable? Well the same principle goes for all the other dictators and monarchies in the region. IS presents a clear and present danger to their continued existence and rule. What is predictable here? That eventually these other middle-eastern countries get their shit together and put the boot down on IS and other radical elements, or they run the risk of losing their countries. This would be an internal fix, an Islamic fix, and the only fix that can actually work.
 

Kaos

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Bit of a disgrace how so few support the Kurdish fight against ISIS. Meanwhile a dozen or so countries are happy to throw their weight behind the Yemeni government and Syrian Islamist groups. Go figure.

It also seems that from that infograph that Iran is actually leading the onslaught against ISIS considering its choice of allies :smirk:
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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This is honestly kind of a load of BS.

This isn't damned if you do, damned if you don't. Its a called "the evil you know". Was Saddam a nice guy? No. Was he pretty awful? Ya. Was he pretty mellow for a psychotic dictator? Also yes.

What you have in IS is a much worse situation with a potential for much, much, MUCH worse. Saddam was predictable. You could count on him to ultimately make decisions that were in his best interest and that means to NOT go poking around inciting and otherwise cause much wider problems.

IS has no best interest. This is more or less a do or die situation and in the process IS has attracted every rag tag ground of malcontents who just want to watch the world burn. They are predictable only in that they have nothing to lose. Their end game is significantly worse than Saddam being in charge.

Now, was it predictable that IS would be the result of Iraq2.0? No, but it was predictable that if you destroyed the infrastructure of the country and then supplanted the established power structure you were going to create a power vacuum and that while Saddam may not have been a great Shia friend, there wasn't whole sale sectarian civil war with market place bombs going off every other week killing hundreds. Without someone on top keeping things somewhat "ok", there was going to be a scramble and IS is the result of that scramble and other scrambles in the region.

This isn't damned if you do damned if you don't. This is, we made a shit situation worse.

On the flipside I think the current stance regarding IS is absolutely fine and in the long run might actually do more to help correct the situation in the middle-east than any direct intervention ever could.

Remember how I said Saddam was predictable? Well the same principle goes for all the other dictators and monarchies in the region. IS presents a clear and present danger to their continued existence and rule. What is predictable here? That eventually these other middle-eastern countries get their shit together and put the boot down on IS and other radical elements, or they run the risk of losing their countries. This would be an internal fix, an Islamic fix, and the only fix that can actually work.
Any person who argues that the world is better off with Saddam in it needs to get their heads examined. Seriously! "Saddam was predictable. Saddam was mellow for a psychotic dictator"...so we all should accept the atrocities he did? Ask the people he tortured on how mellow he really was!

I really don't get the 'US made shit situation worse" argument. Do you really think the world would have been a better place if we let Saddam have Kuwait? Ah, yes he is a megalomaniac and giving him freedom without international repercussions is a recipe for bigger trouble! You must be delusional if you think an unchecked Saddam would have be mellow and predictable.

IS did exist under Saddam too. They were not the face as Saddam did their job for them. Imo, if left unchecked Saddam would have turned into IS and the situation would be exactly the same as what we have now and probably worse, given access to Kuwaiti oil and funds.
 

Kaos

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Any person who argues that the world is better off with Saddam in it needs to get their heads examined. Seriously! "Saddam was predictable. Saddam was mellow for a psychotic dictator"...so we all should accept the atrocities he did? Ask the people he tortured on how mellow he really was!
Some of my family members were tortured by his goons, yet I stand by the idea we were still better off with him. There was fear, nepotism and some pretty atrocious acts orchestrated by Saddam, but there was also stability. Ask Iraqis now if they felt more comfortable living under Saddam or under current circumstances.

I really don't get the 'US made shit situation worse" argument. Do you really think the world would have been a better place if we let Saddam have Kuwait? Ah, yes he is a megalomaniac and giving him freedom without international repercussions is a recipe for bigger trouble! You must be delusional if you think an unchecked Saddam would have be mellow and predictable.
No one says he should be entitled to Kuwait, I think the opposition centres around the US's decision to invade Iraq post 9-11, decimating the country and ultimately leaving it unable to defend herself. Cue the mess we have today.

IS did exist under Saddam too. They were not the face as Saddam did their job for them. Imo, if left unchecked Saddam would have turned into IS and the situation would be exactly the same as what we have now and probably worse, given access to Kuwaiti oil and funds.
Really? I don't recall ISIS getting a run of the place in Iraq under Saddam's tenure.
 

2cents

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Saddam was predictable. You could count on him to ultimately make decisions that were in his best interest and that means to NOT go poking around inciting and otherwise cause much wider problems.
Like invading Iran, thus causing an eight year war with 500,000 - 1 million dead, and then two years later annexing Kuwait, causing the Gulf War?

Hafiz al-Assad was predictable (perhaps cautious is a better word). So was Husni Mubarak, and even Qadhafi to a certain extent. Among Arab dictators, Saddam was notoriously unpredictable and prone to making risky and ultimately disastrous decisions.
 

Kaos

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Like invading Iran, thus causing an eight year war with 500,000 - 1 million dead, and then two years later annexing Kuwait, causing the Gulf War?

Hafiz al-Assad was predictable. So was Husni Mubarak, and even Qadhafi to a certain extent. Among Arab dictators, Saddam was notoriously unpredictable and prone to making risky and ultimately disastrous decisions.
The US and neighbouring Arab states encouraged him to go to war with Iran, that is often forgotten.
 

2cents

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Any person who argues that the world is better off with Saddam in it needs to get their heads examined.
Some of my family members were tortured by his goons, yet I stand by the idea we were still better off with him.
Yep, my wife's Iraqi family, all of whom fled the country from 2003 - 2007, agree the place was better off under Saddam.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Some of my family members were tortured by his goons, yet I stand by the idea we were still better off with him. There was fear, nepotism and some pretty atrocious acts orchestrated by Saddam, but there was also stability. Ask Iraqis now if they felt more comfortable living under Saddam or under current circumstances.
Yep, my wife's Iraqi family, all of whom fled the country from 2003 - 2007, agree the place was better off under Saddam.
It's not asking now, right? Back when Saddam was ruling, if someone had asked you "Would you like to continue to live under Saddam or do you prefer him overthrown" What would your answer have been?
 

2cents

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It's not asking now, right? Back when Saddam was ruling, if someone had asked you "Would you like to continue to live under Saddam or do you prefer him overthrown" What would your answer have been?
I would have asked "what happens after he's overthrown?".

Some really interesting articles here on how Saddam's regime changed during the 90s and embraced an Islamist orientation which laid the grounds for ISIS to emerge during the 2000s, well worth reading through if you've a bit of time:

Iraq Is Still Suffering The Effects Of Saddam Hussein’s Islamist Regime - https://kyleorton1991.wordpress.com...e-effects-of-saddam-husseins-islamist-regime/

Saddam and the Islamists, Part 2 - https://kyleorton1991.wordpress.com/2015/04/20/saddam-and-the-islamists-part-2/

Saddam Hussein’s Regime Produced The Islamic State - https://kyleorton1991.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/saddam-husseins-regime-produced-the-islamic-state/


 

Kaos

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It's not asking now, right? Back when Saddam was ruling, if someone had asked you "Would you like to continue to live under Saddam or do you prefer him overthrown" What would your answer have been?
'Overthrown' is different than a devastating military invasion and consequent occupation. The Iraqis had attempted to overthrow him numerous times, the closest they came was in 91 when the Shia militias had taken the South of the country and were ready to march on Saddam in Baghdad, only for the Americans to gift Saddam his airspace back allowing his choppers and fighter jets to butcher the insurrection.

There's a reason the Shia militias has turned on the Americans after they realised that this invasion wasn't just to get rid of Saddam.