An apologist who says Israel are probably guilty of ethnic cleansing and indiscriminate killing? Your standards of ideological purity are high.The less said about @glazed the better.
I'm sure Hamas expected them to respond like that too. Is there anything about 10/7 you don't approve of? Or is it all good? Who's the apologist now?10/7 was an uprising against an apartheid state.
Edit: I did expect Israel to respond, in fact I expected them to respond exactly as they have, because unlike a lot of people, I've followed this situation for the best part of a decade and I know what a disgusting and barbaric state Israel is.
Was it feck.10/7 was an uprising against an apartheid state.
Edit: I did expect Israel to respond, in fact I expected them to respond exactly as they have, because unlike a lot of people, I've followed this situation for the best part of a decade and I know what a disgusting and barbaric state Israel is.
So you believe 10/7 was justified. You also believe that any rational actor with knowledge of said barbaric state would expect a response in line with what we're now witnessing.10/7 was an uprising against an apartheid state.
Edit: I did expect Israel to respond, in fact I expected them to respond exactly as they have, because unlike a lot of people, I've followed this situation for the best part of a decade and I know what a disgusting and barbaric state Israel is.
That attack was carried out with the specific intention of provoking Israel to respond in the way they did.10/7 was an uprising against an apartheid state.
Edit: I did expect Israel to respond, in fact I expected them to respond exactly as they have, because unlike a lot of people, I've followed this situation for the best part of a decade and I know what a disgusting and barbaric state Israel is.
That's precisely what it was. I don't agree with their methods but I'm also not the one who's been forced to live in a concentration camp for 20 years.Was it feck.
Never mind what side you're on don't try and gloss over that as though the plucky underdogs gave the evil Israelis what they deserved. Pretty much discounts anything else you might say on the subject.
But that's the narrative. There are only two options on this issue, you either support the genocidal Israeli/US capitalist military-industrial-colonial-complex or you support the entirely-understandable-if-you-were-there Hamas actions. That's how this is framed today, at least online. It's the simplest David v Goliath since the last one there, and anyone who doesn't immediately jump onto the side of plucky David is a f*cking barbarian and genocide supporter.Was it feck.
Never mind what side you're on don't try and gloss over that as though the plucky underdogs gave the evil Israelis what they deserved. Pretty much discounts anything else you might say on the subject.
I find it interesting that you think people who have had everything ripped away from them, people who have seen their loved ones murdered and who have been denied their identities and nationhood for longer than they've lived would be acting rationally.So you believe 10/7 was justified. You also believe that any rational actor with knowledge of said barbaric state would expect a response in line with what we're now witnessing.
I assume the logical end point of that is that you believe Hamas acted rationally on 10/7, and this is the price that they were willing to pay.
That's a coherent view. History may well remember it that way, if the end result here is a proper, liberated Gaza. But the actor in that logical flow is Hamas, not Israel.
What I personally believe is that Hamas planned something on 10/7, and it went much, much further (successfully?) than their wildest hopes. The plan was to make a big attack, but not one that would cause this large a retaliation. And at that moment, I'm sure the leaders of Hamas thought the world would step in and stop Israel doing what it's doing, because that's what the world does. But it hasn't been able to.
Are you in Hamas? How on earth do you know what the specific intention was? If that was their intention, it's been an incredible success.That attack was carried out with the specific intention of provoking Israel to respond in the way they did.
In order to get the international community to turn against them.
I have made no secret of the fact I have relatives in Israel.
And they are good honest people.
You are perfectly entitled to feel what you have said about Israel being a barbaric state.
Yet, the entire history of Ukraine is this.I find it interesting that you think people who have had everything ripped away from them, people who have seen their loved ones murdered and who have been denied their identities and nationhood for longer than they've lived would be acting rationally.
You think your life has been harder than the average Gazan? Do you have a Ukrainian passport? Have you been allowed to leave Ukraine? Do Russia control all of utilities? Have Russia had Ukraine under economic blockade for the last 20 years? Have the Russians regularly come in and "mowed the lawn"?You know, I was part of Euromaidan and that was an uprising against a president that throat-fecked us when everyone in the country was pro-EU and tried to take us down the path to become closer to a country that had fecked us harder than the Israeli's have ever fecked Gaza for two centuries. Try mass starvation, forced conscription, de-industrialization, nuclear fallout, resource stripping, ethnic cleansing and economic bootlegging. Sure, we didn't have a physical wall around us but the wall was much more abstract in nature and just as confining and destructive.
But you know what we didn't do? @Raven
We didn't go to peoples houses and start gunning them down or going to Russian raves and massacring people.
This is the point i'm trying to make. This kind of discourse is so disingenous. It's okay to say that Israel have not treated the Gazan's well and have done horrible things to them without trying to justify disgusting behaviour that happened on 7/10 as "an uprising".
You can support one side without trying to justify all sorts of horrors that side commits. It makes this conversation very frustrating.
Israel sealed the border because they elected a terrorist government sworn to their destruction. They didn't elect a terrorist government because Israel sealed the border. Egypt also sealed the border. Perhaps you endorse the rape and murder of Egyptian children too?I'm also not the one who's been forced to live in a concentration camp for 20 years.
A lot of people even Europe/America etc have bad histories. Child abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, might have loved ones murdered etc. Horrific stuff. Not at the scale of Gaza granted but similar atrocities. But when they grow up and commit child abuse or murder etc we don't just say 'oh well I can see where they are coming from'. No. We might understand how they got there and even have sympathy for them but we do not condone their actions and in fact will shoot them dead if needs be or at least jail them for life. Hamas's actions can not be condoned in any shape or formI find it interesting that you think people who have had everything ripped away from them, people who have seen their loved ones murdered and who have been denied their identities and nationhood for longer than they've lived would be acting rationally.
Imagine if literally two out of every three of your people were summarily executed in actual concentration camps - what would you do to defend against it happening again? You want to go down that road?I find it interesting that you think people who have had everything ripped away from them, people who have seen their loved ones murdered and who have been denied their identities and nationhood for longer than they've lived would be acting rationally.
1) No, I was very fortunate to be born to a British Father and moved to UK at a very young age. My mother, my grandparents, my great grandparents were not so lucky. All the questions you asked were *exactly* the same situation as Gazans face now as my family faced back then. Only you replace the wall with soldiers and border checkpoints at a much larger scale and a fence.You think your life has been harder than the average Gazan? Do you have a Ukrainian passport? Have you been allowed to leave Ukraine? Do Russia control all of utilities? Have Russia had Ukraine under economic blockade for the last 20 years? Have the Russians regularly come in and "mowed the lawn"?
I don't mean to be insensitive, I really do empathise with you but you're comparing apples with oranges.
I'm sure that once all is said and done, provided the Gazans aren't wiped out, Palestinians will probably look back on Hamas with a sense of shame but you've just admitted that it does happen.Yet, the entire history of Ukraine is this.
We have had some shameful moments in our history; a lot of people sided with the Nazi's when they came. We had figures like Bandera who basically conducted things exactly like Hamas do. And there's a reason we're shameful of them. No matter how much we were put down, its no justification to go down the route of barbarism.
Despite this, despite the current horrors right now they inflict on us, nobody is rampaging through Russia melting through the frontlines to slit the throats of civilians in their sleep.
Admitting it happens and saying "it's just an uprising, justified against a barbaric country", which is what you said, are completely different things.I'm sure that once all is said and done, provided the Gazans aren't wiped out, Palestinians will probably look back on Hamas with a sense of shame but you've just admitted that it does happen.
Okay, you literally just said 2 seconds ago that Ukrainians openly supported the Nazis in defiance of Russia.1) No, I was very fortunate to be born to a British Father and moved to UK at a very young age. My mother, my grandparents, my great grandparents were not so lucky. All the questions you asked were *exactly* the same situation as Gazans face now as my family faced back then. Only you replace the wall with soldiers and border checkpoints at a much larger scale and a fence.
2) No, I'm not allowed.
3) Yes, because I'm not Ukrainian nationality. But my mother had to be snuck through the Iron Curtain, so she was not allowed to leave.
4) For all intents and purposes until a few years ago ,Yes.
5) Try 200 years.
6) Yes. For 200 years.
Nahh, if you want to quote me, quote me properly.Admitting it happens and saying "it's just an uprising, justified against a barbaric country", which is what you said, are completely different things.
My point is simple, no matter what they do to you, no matter how aggrieved you feel, resorting to barbarism is not the solution and there is no justification.
Shit metaphor. Palestinians are currently being abused by Israel.A lot of people even Europe/America etc have bad histories. Child abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, might have loved ones murdered etc. Horrific stuff. Not at the scale of Gaza granted but similar atrocities. But when they grow up and commit child abuse or murder etc we don't just say 'oh well I can see where they are coming from'. No. We might understand how they got there and even have sympathy for them but we do not condone their actions and in fact will shoot them dead if needs be or at least jail them for life. Hamas's actions can not be condoned in any shape or form
And it was barbaric and wrong and totally unjustifiedOkay, you literally just said 2 seconds ago that Ukrainians openly supported the Nazis in defiance of Russia.
Nahh, if you want to quote me, quote me properly.
Describing what happened as an uprising is seriously, in my opinion at least, an attempt to downplay the barbarism and an attempt to justify it.10/7 was an uprising against an apartheid state.
Edit: I did expect Israel to respond, in fact I expected them to respond exactly as they have, because unlike a lot of people, I've followed this situation for the best part of a decade and I know what a disgusting and barbaric state Israel is.
It's calling it what it was. As I said to another poster, I'm against their methods but I don't live in a concentration camp so have no real right to judge which methods they use to end their subjugation.Describing what happened as an uprising is seriously, in my opinion at least, an attempt to downplay the barbarism and an attempt to justify it.
It wasn't an uprising. It was a mindless attempt at slaughter to relieve the grievances and anger they felt.It's calling it what it was. As I said to another poster, I'm against their methods but I don't live in a concentration camp so have no real right to judge which methods they use to end their subjugation.
It is barbaric and wrong but not unjustified. If I was living every day not knowing whether I would live to see the sun set and fearing for the safety of my family, you best fecking believe I would take up arms with whoever the feck offered me help.And it was barbaric and wrong and totally unjustified
It was pretty clearly more tactical than that otherwise they wouldn't have taken hostages.It wasn't an uprising. It was a mindless attempt at slaughter to relieve the grievances and anger they felt.
It's pretty simple. No matter how much you feel you are subjucated or booted-down, barbarism and slaughter is not the answer.
Siding with Nazism, who wanted to eradicate all Slavs, is justified because the people they're trying to eradicate also happened to be brutal to us? Are you forgetting Ukrainians are also Slavic?It is barbaric and wrong but not unjustified. If I was living every day not knowing whether I would live to see the sun set and fearing for the safety of my family, you best fecking believe I would take up arms with whoever the feck offered me help.
Have you never heard the enemy of my enemy? Either way, we're getting side tracked and massively off topic.Siding with Nazism, who wanted to eradicate all Slavs, is justified because the people they're trying to eradicate also happened to be brutal to us? Are you forgetting Ukrainians are also Slavic?
Jesus christ mate, this is a very weird viewpoint.
Even there, there's a line. If ISIS ranks wanted to join AFU to stick it to Russia, I 100% guarantee you we would say feck no.Have you never heard the enemy of my enemy? Either way, we're getting side tracked and massively off topic.
Okay but the Gazans have not enlisted the help of ISIS.Even there, there's a line. If ISIS ranks wanted to join AFU to stick it to Russia, I 100% guarantee you we would say feck no.
Okay now you're choosing to be obtuse.Okay but the Gazans have not enlisted the help of ISIS.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.Okay now you're choosing to be obtuse.
Your point is that 10/7 and Bandera were justified. I said they're not, you said what the Ukrainians did were justified by siding with the Nazi's. I said it was not. You said enemy of my enemy is my friend. I said even that has lines. And you somehow link that with Gaza despite us talking about Ukraine.
tl;dr What Bandera did was not justified. What 10.7 was is not justified. Regardless of the horrors both Gazans and Ukrainians had to endure prior.
This is a pretty unfair stick to beat someone with. There are many posters in the Ukraine thread critical of Russia who haven't posted here - are you questioning their genuine concern for human life too? I barely have any posts there myself because most of the posters and indeed the Western world agrees that Putin is a pretty horrid man, so theres not much of a debate there.I find the posts of my evil twin @Raven very concerning, but that is not a surprise from a true leftie.
Now, I would give him the benefit of the doubt if he would actually be genuine and care about the human life. In his simplified world, Israel is the Goliath, Palestinians are the David, so you should always stick with David, no matter the circumstances. And you should hate Goliath, the all-powerful evil of Israel. He has 243 posts in Israel-Palestine thread, and 39 posts in this thread.
From such a person, I would have expected to show a similar remorse for human life pretty much in all conflicts, especially in conflicts between the strong and the weak, especially in conflicts closer to home. And to my absolute shock (whom I am kidding, I obviously expected so), he has 0 posts in the Ukraine thread. Zero, null, nada, nilch.
Considering his absolute silence in this, him being ok with Iran and Hamas attacks, but not with Israel, and his absolute silence in Russia atrocities, I think we have found that Jeremy Corbyn posts in Caf.
Do you find this to be a convincing argument? There's threads on the Myanmar civil war, Sudan civil war, and those get few responses but that doesn't necessarily mean Cafites are heartless.I find the posts of my evil twin @Raven very concerning, but that is not a surprise from a true leftie.
Now, I would give him the benefit of the doubt if he would actually be genuine and care about the human life. In his simplified world, Israel is the Goliath, Palestinians are the David, so you should always stick with David, no matter the circumstances. And you should hate Goliath, the all-powerful evil of Israel. He has 243 posts in Israel-Palestine thread, and 39 posts in this thread. A principled person.
From such a person, I would have expected to show a similar remorse for human life pretty much in all conflicts, especially in conflicts between the strong and the weak, especially in conflicts closer to home. And to my absolute shock (whom I am kidding, I obviously expected so), he has 0 posts in the Ukraine thread. Zero, null, nada, nilch.
Considering his absolute silence in this, him being ok with Iran and Hamas attacks, but not with Israel, and his absolute silence in Russia atrocities, I think we have found that Jeremy Corbyn posts in Caf. The only remaining question is why he is not yet advocating Russia's holy war against the evil capitalist West in Ukraine.
Also posters may have any number of valid reasons unknown to the general Cafe population for demonstrating more interest in one particular issue than another. It's best to judge people on what they write, not on what they don't write.This is a pretty unfair stick to beat someone with. There are many posters in the Ukraine thread critical of Russia who haven't posted here - are you questioning their genuine concern for human life too? I barely have any posts there myself because most of the posters and indeed the Western world agrees that Putin is a pretty horrid man, so theres not much of a debate there.
I find it very interesting though how someone who seems to justify Hamas and Iran attacks in Israel, talk so much against Israel, doesn't have a single post for the Ukraine war. Which is much closer to home, and far more in the media.This is a pretty unfair stick to beat someone with. There are many posters in the Ukraine thread critical of Russia who haven't posted here - are you questioning their genuine concern for human life too? I barely have any posts there myself because most of the posters and indeed the Western world agrees that Putin is a pretty horrid man, so theres not much of a debate there.
