Israel offered nuclear weapons to Apartheid S. Africa

Mister Jeebus

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maldini said:
I hope someone with a better grasp of history can explain to me which particular neighboring nations did South Africa wish to defense themselves from with nuclear weapons. It seems a tad over the top.
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Neighbouring countries such as Angola had Soviet Union troops, or rather their Cuban proxies stationed there, with the very real threat of invasion in the 70s.

Edit: Angola not Namibia I think.
 

Raoul

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Anything affiliated with Communism or Marxism was bound to draw the ire of the U.S. Government in those days.
 

Mister Jeebus

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Mister Jeebus said:
Neighbouring countries such as Angola had Soviet Union troops, or rather their Cuban proxies stationed there, with the very real threat of invasion in the 70s.

Edit: Angola not Namibia I think.
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Going through the well-known history of the sending of Cuban 36,000 troops to Angola to defend the Marxist MPLA government against a South African invasion in 1975, President Castro also for the first time shed light on the scale of the 1987-88 operation.

In 1987, South African troops were again in Angola, aiding the rightist UNITA rebels in an attempt to overthrow the leftist MPLA government. According to Mr Castro, the Angolan army had been ill advised to its large September 1987 offensive against the assumed UNITA headquarters at Lomba River in the far south-east of Angola.

President Castro reveals that Cuba had advised the Angolan army against this large offensive due to the big risks involved. The battle at Lomba River also turned out to be a disaster for the government army, as it fell into a trap set up by UNITA and its allies from the apartheid state. The Angolan army suffered great losses, in particular of its heavy weaponry, and was forced to pull back to the air base in Cuito Cuanavale.

"The enemy, greatly emboldened, advanced strongly, towards Cuito Cuanavale," Mr Castro said. "Here it prepared to deliver a mortal blow against Angola. Desperate calls were received from the Angolan government appealing to the Cuban troops for support in fending off presumed disaster," he went on, adding Cuba "had no responsibility whatever" for the difficult situation the Angolan army found itself in.

The Cuban President goes on detailing the massive response immediately organised by Havana. The goal was not only hindering the enemy's advance on Cuito Cuanavale, but to "deliver a decisive blow against the South African forces," he revealed. "A flood of troops and weaponry rapidly crossed the Atlantic, landing on Angola's south coast in order to attack in the south west, in the direction of Namibia. At the same time, 800 km to the east, special units advanced towards Cuito Cuanavale, where they joined up with retreating Angolan forces to set up a lethal trap for the powerful South African forces heading for that large airbase."

The scale of the operation was enormous, much bigger than contemporary observers believed. "Cuban troops in Angola numbered 55,000," President Castro revealed. Assessments so far on the Cuban force have been closer to 30,000. Only in Cuito Cuanavale, there were 40,000 Cuban and 30,000 Angolan troops.
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afrol News - Castro reveals role in Angola, Namibia independence
 

EZee

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hang on...

we are on page 2 of a thread about israel and no holeyland yet...

im expecting him to pop up and say the papers are obviousley fakes and it was the palestinians trying to sell the nukes...
 

Avatar

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maldini said:
I'm sure there were many members of the US government who were fully aware, and perhaps, endorsed the selling of nuclear weapons to South Africa. I think it was Dick Cheney who actually voted against the imposing of economic sanctions against the country, not to mention his labeling of the ANC as a terrorist organization and being against the release of Nelson Mandela himself.

Of course, that's just Cheney.
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What a lovely guy!!
 

holyland red

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EZee said:
hang on...

we are on page 2 of a thread about israel and no holeyland yet...

im expecting him to pop up and say the papers are obviousley fakes and it was the palestinians trying to sell the nukes...
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Welcome back, EZee.

Sorry but I initially saw this story came from The Guardian so didn't bother replying. Now that this has turned into a decent 2-page thread I started looking into the evidence for this (non?) story and all I saw was that some bloke who wants to sell his book in the US said something. I don't even know which papers are supposed to be fake? Those mentioning selling Jericho missiles to SA? Why should that bother me?
 

Stretch

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Firstly Avatar, what I was explaining to you earlier was that to bring up something that happened almost 40 years ago is taking this matter out of context. You might as well then do this for everything for all nations all the time. Hell, why not go back 200 years and say that still counts today? It is a rather silly way to judge what a nation is doing in the present.

You mention that you are all for minimizing or getting rid of nukes yet it doesn't seem that way. You see, 40 years ago nobody saw anything wrong with nations (including apartheid or non apartheid) regimes arming themselves with nukes. Today all of that has changed, which in my mind is a good thing. And if you don't wanna believe me then just look at how my country, South Africa's changed! 40 years ago apartheid was rife in my country and today we're hosting the WC! My point is that you're not taking into account the dynamics of the political climate and the development of it over the last 4 decades. It has changed considerably.

Furthermore, I can tell you now that the story that you published is note even cut and dry. All that this bloke has is a transcript of a meeting where weapon sales were discuss. It does not mention nuclear weapons at all. In fact, former Foreing Affairs of SA, Pik Botha, has denied the allegations. See article below. Just the other side of the coin as it were.

Cape Town - It was highly unlikely that the Israeli government formally offered nuclear weapons to South Africa in the apartheid era, former South African foreign minister Pik Botha said on Monday.

"I doubt it very much," he said. "I doubt whether such an offer was ever made. I think I would have known about it."

He was reacting to a report published by Britain's Guardian newspaper on Monday.

It quoted minutes from a series of top-secret meetings in 1975 in which Israeli president Shimon Peres, who was then defence minister, allegedly offered his then South African counterpart PW Botha nuclear warheads "in three different sizes".

The Guardian said the documents provided evidence that Israel has nuclear weapons despite its policy of "ambiguity" in neither confirming nor denying their existence.

Botha said that at the time he was ambassador to the US and the UN, so he could not have been involved in such meetings.

'I would have known'

But as minister of foreign affairs from April 1977, and, towards the end of his term, as negotiator with the US on the signing of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, he had known "what was going on".

"I was very closely connected with our Atomic Energy Board and later Corporation. I would have known about it," he said.

He had also known Peres and other senior Israeli leaders.

It was of course possible that an offer was made at a low level, between officials.

But for it to have any significance, it should have been brought to the attention of the South African ministers connected with the country's own weapon production.

"As a serious offer of one government to another, my answer is no. Definitely not," Botha said.

Peres' reaction

Agence France Presse (AFP) reported earlier that the allegation in The Guardian prompted a strongly-worded response from Peres' office.

"There exists no basis in reality for the claims published this morning by The Guardian that in 1975 Israel negotiated with South Africa the exchange of nuclear weapons," it said.

"Israel has never negotiated the exchange of nuclear weapons with South Africa. There exists no Israeli document or Israeli signature on a document that such negotiations took place," it said.

The Guardian had written the piece based on "selective interpretation of South African documents and not on concrete facts", it added.

'Top secret'

The South African documents, which are dated March 31 1975 and marked "top secret," show Peres' offer was made in response to Botha's request for Israel to supply them with warheads.

But they make no mention of any "exchange" between the parties. At the time, South Africa had not yet acquired nuclear capabilities and would not do so for several years.

At the talks, Israeli officials "formally offered to sell South Africa some of the nuclear-capable Jericho missiles in its arsenal", the memo said.

It also said Peres and Botha signed an agreement about military ties between the two countries, including a clause which said "the very existence of this agreement" was to remain secret.

The material was discovered by US academic Sasha Polakow-Suransky while researching a book on the close relationship between the two allies.

Declassified secrets

According to the Guardian, Israel tried to stop Pretoria from declassifying the documents in response to a request from Polakow-Suransky, whose book, The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's secret alliance with apartheid South Africa, will be released in the US this week.

Israel is widely believed to be the only nuclear power in the Middle East, with around 200 warheads, but has maintained a policy of deliberate ambiguity about its capabilities since the mid-60s.

In September 1979, Israel and South Africa allegedly carried out a secret nuclear test on an offshore platform in the southern Indian Ocean.

The revelation came to light in another declassified document which was released in Washington in 2006 at the request of the security studies centre at Georgetown University.

The document, which was prepared for the White House, said Israel and South Africa, which was then under apartheid rule, were co-operating on military issues, including nuclear research.

South Africa later dismantled its nuclear weapons programme under UN supervision.

- SAPA
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Pik Botha denies Israeli nuclear deal: News24: South Africa: News
 

Avatar

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ok. Good points

I'll judge them from the present then :smirk:
 

Mihajlovic

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South Africa had the know-how and material to build a nuclear bomb even without any Israeli help, I believe. It came from the USA and Germany. I remember reading there was some cooperation between the Israeli and SA governments because apparently the Cheetah is an exact copy of the Kfir and there was also an the so called Vela incident when Israel apparently did nuclear tests using SA's facilities.

And all this stuff happened in the 50s, 60s and 70s. Old news.
 

ANWAR

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israel should be the last country in the world to make deals with such regime considering what the jews went through.
 
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