Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Giggsyking]

Most were fine with it for the most part, as they believed the people who claimed that it would satisfy Hamas, help Gaza and allow us to get on with our lives peacefully.

That's part of the reason why many Israelis refuse to hear about a ceasefire now. After the shock of October, they don't believe in any sort of a deal or an existance that includes Hamas still being around

"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm"

 

[Amir]

So the whole world knew why Netanyahu was facilitating and helping Hamas to stay in power, but only Israelis did not understand that? I am sorry, but I do not buy this at all.

Israelis knew. They just figured out that it wouldn't be a major issue and that the govenment knew what it was doing. Once in a while we had a military operation in Gaza and rockets were fired towards Israel, but it didn't cause great damage or many fatalities due to the Iron Dome system. It didn't interfere with lives in Israel too much.

I knew it's a weird sort of existance, but we became used to it.

 

[Amir]

Dude come off it. You’re better than spouting this rubbish.

Where am I wrong here? What do you know about what Israelis have been thinking for the past 20 years that I do not?

Also if the question was to help Gaza why have they been under a military blockade? Why did they blow up the airport and seaport?

Oh, I don't think anyone in Israel was too interested in helping Gaza. People in Israel were interested in themselves and their peace and quiet. Israelis were told that allowing Hamas to receive Qatari money would help Israel as it will give Hamas an incentive not to start anything serious against Israel, so they accepted it and went on with their lives, not being too interested in what's going on in Gaza.

 

[Raven]

Wonder if there will ever be a time they will be held responsible

Not in our lifetimes.

 

[Amir]

"For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.
The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.
Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm"

Yes, I know, all of this is true.

My point is that there as huge divide between what Israeli politicians - starting with Netanyahu - are thinking and doing and what the average Israeli is doing and is interested in.

 

[Amir]

I didn't expect there would be any fallout after Glazer's speech at the Oscars but Zionists continue to show their true faces.

The least amount of condemnation on a world stage from a Jewish person and they go crazy.

Most Israelis are incapable of hearing or accepting any sort of criticism toward Israel. That includes the media, who's been treating Glazer with contempt.

 

[Raven]

It obviously was a tactic, but I think that the people who were interested in that part were the policitians, starting with Netanyahu.

The average Israeli didn't care the about the tactic, if he even knew or understood it. He was focused on the result - if it gives him peace and quiet, fine, whatever.

That's part of the tragedy, really. The Palestenian problem stopped being an issue for most Israelis as they just assumed the govenment had it sorted, in its own twisted way.

So you were fine with humiliation of the Gazans as long as you were able to live comfortably. You should really try reading back some of your takes and ask the question "are we the baddies?".

 

[Amir]

So you were fine with humiliation of the Gazans as long as you were able to live comfortably. You should really try reading back some of your takes and ask the question "are we the baddies?".

I certainly wouldn't call Israel ''the good guys'.

I'd say most Israelis weren't particularly informed over the years about what's going on in Gaza, as the media didn't report it - just like it hasn't reported much about it for the past five months.

Now, would Israelis have cared had they known? Probably not.

 

[VorZakone]

How Israel Mastered Information Warfare in Gaza

Israel has followed a four-pronged strategy in its information warfare:

• emphasize the horrors of the Oct. 7 massacre;
• discredit pro-Palestinian voices and justify the bombing of Gaza;
• limit the flow of information about the conflict coming out of Gaza;
• and rally the Israeli public by advertising its military prowess and destruction of Gaza.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/03/1...fare-misinformation/?tpcc=recirc_latest062921

 

[Giggsyking]

Israelis knew. They just figured out that it wouldn't be a major issue and that the govenment knew what it was doing. Once in a while we had a military operation in Gaza and rockets were fired towards Israel, but it didn't cause great damage or many fatalities due to the Iron Dome system. It didn't interfere with lives in Israel too much.

I knew it's a weird sort of existance, but we became used to it.

I am sorry, but Israelis should think again, subjugating the Palestinians will never make them safe. It is only when you offer them a real chance of living as equals by giving them a full sovereign state you will feel safe.

 

[Giggsyking]

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The occupied west bank. Treat them like cattle, that will help with the safety of the state of Israel.

 

[Raven]

I certainly wouldn't call Israel ''the good guys'.

I'd say most Israelis weren't particularly informed over the years about what's going on in Gaza, as the media didn't report it - just like it hasn't reported much about it for the past five months.

Now, would Israelis have cared had they known? Probably not.

So, you have the Israeli government and security forces routinely murdering, imprisoning, abusing and humiliating the Palestinian population whilst you merrily go about your life. You now know this, like you say. Yet you're still some how surprised that the Gazans chose to rise up against Israel? And you think the solution to this is to flatten Gaza and murder anyone that gets in the way?

 

[Amir]

I am sorry, but Israelis should think again, subjugating the Palestinians will never make them safe. It is only when you offer them a real chance of living as equals by giving them a full sovereign state you will feel safe.

Obviously there's plenty of chatter now about how thinking that the Palestenian issue has gone away and wouldn't be a problem was a major mistake.

The problem is, I don't think that many people now think that giving them a state - or handling them in any peaceful way - is the solution.

I hope that the US and other major forces in the worlds put pressure on Israel to move back towards the two-state solution, otherwise it won't happen.

 

[Amir]

So, you have the Israeli government and security forces routinely murdering, imprisoning, abusing and humiliating the Palestinian population whilst you merrily go about your life. You now know this, like you say. Yet you're still some how surprised that the Gazans chose to rise up against Israel? And you think the solution to this is to flatten Gaza and murder anyone that gets in the way?

Me personally? No. Other Israelis - many Israelis - yes.

 

[Raven]

Me personally? No. Other Israelis - many Israelis - yes.

So why are you in here defending Israel to the extent that you have been?

 

[Amir]

So why are you in here defending Israel to the extent that you have been?

Because there's absolutely no justification for the October 7 attacks. Because the ignorance and indifference of many Israelis don't mean they deserve to be hurt or become refugees in their own country. And because while a lot of what's been written here in this thread about Israel is true, some of it is not.

The problem is that even if I agree with 90% of the things, I'm being attacked for the 10% I disagree with. I'm even being attacked if I try to convey the thoughts of the the average Israeli, if people here don't like what they read.

 

[Gazautd18]

@Amir : - i can see you're answering questions here and that is really helpful as someone who goes on Twitter and doesn't get many answers.
What do you or other Israelis think about Oct 7th re. the response time as well as the info wars and the way the world see's the Palestinian's now?

 

[Raven]

Because there's absolutely no justification for the October 7 attacks. Because the ignorance and indifference of many Israelis don't mean they deserve to be hurt or become refugees in their own country. And because while a lot of what's been written here in this thread about Israel is true, some of it is not.

The problem is that even if I agree with 90% of the things, I'm being attacked for the 10% I disagree with. I'm even being attacked if I try to convey the thoughts of the the average Israeli, if people here don't like what they read.

So do you think that the people of Gaza should just put up and shut up whilst the IDF come in and "mow the lawn" every few years? If you're a Gazan pre October 7th, what do you think you would do? Would you be happy to suffer in silence, watching your friends and family being murdered, their homes being demolished and not ever being allowed to leave?

 

[Amir]

So do you think that the people of Gaza should just put up and shut up whilst the IDF come in and "mow the lawn" every few years? If you're a Gazan pre October 7th, what do you think you would do? Would you be happy to suffer in silence, watching your friends and family being murdered, their homes being demolished and not ever being allowed to leave?

No, I don't think they need to put up and shut up. And I can understand the violent response. As former PM Ehud Barak said once - had he been a Palestenian, he would have become a terrorist.

But what did the October 7 attacks achieve for the people in Gaza (not that they themselves initiated them)?

I would also point out that while Israelis have voted for the (pretty evil) Netanyahu time and time again, the people of Gaza elected Hamas the last time they held elections - which, admittedly, was a long time ago.

 

[Idxomer]

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[Amir]

@Amir : - i can see you're answering questions here and that is really helpful as someone who goes on Twitter and doesn't get many answers.
What do you or other Israelis think about Oct 7th re. the response time as well as the info wars and the way the world see's the Palestinian's now?

Israelis tend to see the world as hypocritical, ignorant and clueless when it comes to the support of the Palestenians.

Unfortunately, Israelis - more and more - tend to paint any sort of criticism toward Israel as antisemitism, which is totally moronic. I guess it's a comfortable excuse: "You hate us because we're jewish, it's not that we're actually doing anything wrong".

I'm a bit lost about the first part of your question (the response time and info wars) as I didn't quite understand it. If you're talking about how long it took the defence forces to respond on October 7, then yeah, it's been a major issue talked about over and over again for the past five months. With the war going on, it's not really been investigated fully.

 

[jadaba]

Because there's absolutely no justification for the October 7 attacks. Because the ignorance and indifference of many Israelis don't mean they deserve to be hurt or become refugees in their own country. And because while a lot of what's been written here in this thread about Israel is true, some of it is not.

The problem is that even if I agree with 90% of the things, I'm being attacked for the 10% I disagree with. I'm even being attacked if I try to convey the thoughts of the the average Israeli, if people here don't like what they read.

While credit is due for the fact you are choosing not to be wilfully ignorant about this and you are aware of the injustices, a certain awareness that for so many (or few) in Israel can only really be obtained through proactive information seeking, it is frustrating that despite all that your conclusions appear to come down to Arab and Jewish lives not being worthy of equal dignity.

I know you've made the argument that you are aware of the overall immorality of it and at least you are often self-reflective, but I don't see how it can be logically consistent for you to acknowledge that occupation and the injustices Palestinians have suffered at the hand of Israel can never justify 7 October, but that 7 October can justify the killing we have seen in Gaza. The explanation that I can find is that you not only see that they are clearly unequal in our reality, but that you seem to support upholding that inequality in the value of their lives.

Not only that, but is it not also incoherent to acknowledge that Israel's actions contributed to 7 October (even if you don't see it as ever justified) and to see that subjugation of Palestinians cannot bring peace for Israelis, but to then condone what's been done to Gaza, albeit while acknowledging it has been excessive? Is it simply a case of thinking that this time pummelling the Palestinians into submission will work?

 

[Suedesi]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4GT1SsxIHK/

 

[Raven]

No, I don't think they need to put up and shut up. And I can understand the violent response. As former PM Ehud Barak said once - had he been a Palestenian, he would have become a terrorist.

But what did the October 7 attacks achieve for the people in Gaza (not that they themselves initiated them)?

I would also point out that while Israelis have voted for the (pretty evil) Netanyahu time and time again, the people of Gaza elected Hamas the last time they held elections - which, admittedly, was a long time ago.

The Israeli government also backed Hamas, as others have already mentioned.

To answer what it has achieved, finally the world has woken up to the evil of the Israeli occupation. People are no longer believing the smears of antisemitism for the slightest criticism of Israel. Its looking like international pressure is finally mounting to a significant enough degree so that we can start making progress towards a Palestinian state.

 

[4bars]

The Israeli government also backed Hamas, as others have already mentioned.

To answer what it has achieved, finally the world has woken up to the evil of the Israeli occupation. People are no longer believing the smears of antisemitism for the slightest criticism of Israel. Its looking like international pressure is finally mounting to a significant enough degree so that we can start making progress towards a Palestinian state.

Keep dreaming

 

[reelworld]

This picture will make Amir more peaceful tonight. That's all that matters.

It's really giving the Zone of Interest vibes here.
As long as I'm safe and sound, feck the genocide just behind the walls, amirite?

 

[berbatrick]

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[neverdie]

A new American intelligence assessment released on Monday raised doubts about whether Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel could stay in power, as the C.I.A. director said a hostage deal was the most practical way to halt, at least temporarily, the war in Gaza.
The 2024 Annual Threat Assessment expressed concerns about Israel’s vision for the end of the war and said that Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition “may be in jeopardy.”
“Distrust of Netanyahu’s ability to rule has deepened and broadened across the public from its already high levels before the war, and we expect large protests demanding his resignation and new elections,” the report said. “A different, more moderate government is a possibility.”
The report predicted that Israel would struggle to achieve its goal of “destroying Hamas.”
“Israel probably will face lingering armed resistance from Hamas for years to come, and the military will struggle to neutralize Hamas’s underground infrastructure, which allows insurgents to hide, regain strength and surprise Israeli forces,” the report said.

Tensions between President Biden and Mr. Netanyahu have flared in recent days over Israel’s planned military operations in Rafah in southern Gaza. But the intelligence report, prepared over months, was written before the most recent tensions.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/11/us/politics/netanyahu-gaza-intelligence-report.html

 

[4bars]

recent tensions...I thought he didn't pick up the phone since december. I wonder if they are lying...something is fishy

 

[Raven]

Keep dreaming

Fair enough, my last point was extremely optimistic but the first 2, definitely.

 

[4bars]

Fair enough, my last point was extremely optimistic but the first 2, definitely.

Yes, but inconsequential. Israel will keep pushing through with 100% US support. Is the law of the strongest. Will be time to rewrite history and see empty apologies for committing a genocide

 

[VorZakone]

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[frostbite]

Do all Palestinian kids grow up in the conditions this person describes?

 

[Raven]

Yes, but inconsequential. Israel will keep pushing through with 100% US support. Is the law of the strongest. Will be time to rewrite history and see empty apologies for committing a genocide

We need to keep pushing then, make sure that people don't forget what's happened. Make sure that everyone knows who to blame.

 

[The Corinthian]

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And Biden is too much of a weak man to get aid in through the border. Pathetic from the US.

 

[The Corinthian]

Gaza medics tell BBC that Israeli troops beat and humiliated them after hospital raid

Palestinian medical staff in Gaza have told the BBC they were blindfolded, detained, forced to strip and repeatedly beaten by Israeli troops after a raid at their hospital last month.
Ahmed Abu Sabha, a doctor at Nasser hospital, described being held for a week in detention, where, he said, muzzled dogs were set upon him and his hand was broken by an Israeli soldier.
His account closely matches those of two other medics who wanted to remain anonymous for fear of reprisals.
They told the BBC they were humiliated, beaten, doused with cold water, and forced to kneel in uncomfortable positions for hours. They said they were detained for days before being released.

Gaza medics tell BBC that Israeli troops beat and humiliated them after hospital raid - BBC News

 

[africanspur]

This picture will make Amir more peaceful tonight. That's all that matters.

These kinds of comments are really incredibly unhelpful.

 

[africanspur]

It surely depends on the situation and what these terms are.

Are Norwegians peaceful? I'd say yes. But how would they react if their country and themselves were under the threat of rocket fire and terrorist attacks? They'd probably want and expect their country to react in urder to assure their safety - even if it means a strong military operation. Would that make them less peaceful?

I'm in two minds about answering this because I actually think, despite my disagreements with some of what you're saying and some of the things you've said, that you provide a positive contribution to the thread and are obviously having to respond to multiple people at once. But I'll reply anyway.

It does indeed but this is exactly my point.

I would say Israelis want peace, on their own terms. The 'compromises' willing to be made are things that most normal people would consider to be the bare minimum (if that) for a normal, peaceful life. They've created a situation where giving up colonies built in a land internationally recognised as being that of another people, controlling all water and foreign policy etc etc is seen as a huge compromise to make.

If the Norwegians responded by invading, occupying, blockading, humiliating and colonising, then yes, that would make them less peaceful. I don't think many would really question that. Some people may also even question why the attacking population reacted in the way they did.

Its easy I think for some people to compartmentalise everything. Gaza is not the west bank and what happens in one should not influence the other. Yes Gazans lived a horrendous life beforehand. But any response to that (even before October 7th) is abhorrent. Yes Israel will continue to 'manage' the situation. And then act surprised when there's an occasional flare every few years.

Do I believe most Israels want to attack and occupy Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan etc? No. Do I believe they want peace with the Palestinians, on their terms? Sure. Do I believe they want a peace that requires genuine compromise on their part? Not really. Part of that is fear, sure. Part of it not.

 

[africanspur]

https://www.israeltrees.org/

Gotten a few youtube ads recently from these fine people. The interviews with the people in the West Bank in particular are a pretty painful watch.

 

[The Corinthian]

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Israel proving itself again to be the most pathetic nation on Earth.