They've repeatedly stated they are ok with humanitarian aid going in through Rafa as long is it isn't used by Hamas. That's hardly an extreme position given they are officially at war with Hamas.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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You must be thinking of something else… I didn’t say anything that is not stated by Al Jazeera in their new video.I don't think that's what that report says, more that there isn't a clear picture of what happened and highlighting the changing narrative from Israel.
Actually you can't, the literal responsible isn't who people may think.Jesus, that is an awful take. You certainly can blame Hamas for the lack of resources and infrastructure, but this is just a barbaric statement.
n November 1967 the Israeli authorities issued Military Order 158, which stated that Palestinians could not construct any new water installation without first obtaining a permit from the Israeli army. Since then, the extraction of water from any new source or the development of any new water infrastructure would require permits from Israel, which are near impossible to obtain.
While we all know of Hamas' flaws, while they may not have helped Palestine, the plight and suffering and murder of the Palestinians predates the existence of Hamas.Thought this was a great read and spot on.
Gaza could Have Been Singapore. Hamas Turned It Into ISIS | Opinion
BASSEM EID
PALESTINIAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST
ON 10/9/23 AT 10:41 AM EDT
Sometimes, on happier days, I like to comment on the remarkable similarities between Singapore and the Gaza Strip. Both are self-governing city-states located at key crossroads of world trade on the opposite ends of the Continent of Asia. Both combine density of population with a significant urban buildup and dramatic natural advantages, including a high-quality harbor. And yet, due to differences in civil culture and governance, Singapore has been built into the trade hub of East Asia. Gaza, as Saturday's events have demonstrated to the world, has chosen another path: becoming a terrorist dystopia like the benighted lands formerly under ISIS.
What is Gaza like under the rule of the terrorist group Hamas? Hamas's Taliban-like mini-emirate is a brutal tinpot dictatorship where LGBTQ+ people and anyone living other than a strictly Islamic lifestyle lives under terrible repression. This reality may help us understand the insanity and brutality of the organization that just conducted a wild, self-destructive raid into southern Israel, leaving a horrific trail of rape and torture in their wake as they perpetrated the worst massacre of civilians in the history of Israel.
During this Saturday's attack, Hamas's monstrous tactics included killing indiscriminately in the towns they occupied, using rape as a weapon of war, and taking hostages—including young women, the elderly, and young children. Many have drawn comparisons to ISIS tactics in Iraq and Syria, where women from non-Muslim communities like the Yezidis were parceled out as sex slaves to fighters; thousands of those women were trafficked and remain unaccounted for to this day.
Similarly, at a huge dance-all-night "Peace Festival" outside Kibbutz Re'im, at least 250 young Israelis were murdered, while dozens of young women have been taken captive. In one widely-shared video, the half-stripped body of an unconscious female was driven around the streets of Gaza in an open-bed truck with one leg splayed at an unnatural angle as men disgraced and spat on her.
This is the violence that Hamas has implicitly sworn to commit in its very founding charter, which states, "[Hamas] strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine... Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it."
It bears repeating that there is no moral equivalency between a nation that targets murderous terrorists and a terror group that targets civilians.
One obvious difference between Hamas and Israel is that Israel could never attack a music festival in Gaza—because music in public is illegal there. More importantly, Israel goes to a great deal of trouble to avoid causing civilian casualties or harming the mosques, schools, and medical facilities where Hamas hides military targets.
In contrast, just listen to the chilling message of 22-year-old paramedic Amit Maan, hiding in the clinic where she worked, with automatic fire in the background, before her phone went dead: "Please make it stop, please make it stop... Where is the army?"
What kind of consequences will Hamas's actions bring to Gaza? Israel has vowed a "mighty vengeance," and there is already discussion of a long war and a possible Israeli ground invasion of Gaza. Some have even suggested that Israel end the rule of Hamas over the strip.
We have seen this movie before. As Israel clears the remaining terrorists from its territory and pushes forward into the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, Hamas plans to use their own people and the surviving Israeli hostages as human shields as they have done time and again. Callow media personalities may start to forget the horrors of yesterday and return to simplistic tropes about the "cycle of violence."
Israel, a thriving democracy with vigorous internal debates, is now staunchly united to bring its citizens and family members home. In Gaza, the opposite is true: Free speech is vigorously crushed, and the people yearn to breathe free of Hamas rule.
For the sake of both the Israeli victims and he Palestinian people, I urge you, dear reader, not to forget the faces of the fallen and the kidnapped.
Bassem Eid is a Palestinian human rights activist.
https://www.newsweek.com/gaza-could-have-been-singapore-hamas-turned-it-isis-opinion-1833145
Can't find fault with anything in this article. Thanks for sharing.
Ah you're back. Didn't answer questions but that's OK.
On this article one of the things I'd find fault with is the idea that Israel tries not to kill civilians considering how many they have killed over the years.
Alex Jones (which is as good a barometer as any of the American insanity soup) was threading that line in his recent shows covering the attacks. He made it about his personal grievances (namely Jewish fans accosting him at the airport but not writing at the ADL to defend him ? Literally said "What are you doing to help me lately") but he reverted back to isolationism (leave us -"white Christians" left unsaid- alone) which I think is accurate : Please stay over there and kill each other far away from me. Which is also the only way you can pander to Evangelicals (who only see Israel as a necessary step to Jesus second coming, and Jews as tools) and Patriot types ranting about the ZOG.
Had plenty of hateful things to say for all but definitely the racism against Muslims is a lot more visceral, probably because they're more numerous (and more brown).
Yeah I was talking about similar in another thread. It's just base othering.
How strange. I thought the count had risen from the two hundreds up to 500 at one point.Tweet
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I saw a bizzarely accurate 471 on Sky or the like at one point.How strange. I thought the count had risen from the two hundreds up to 500 at one point.
RedDevil@84
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Do you think the poster doesn't know this?While we all know of Hamas' flaws, while they may not have helped Palestine, the plight and suffering and murder of the Palestinians predates the existence of Hamas.
KingCantona87
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I'd say committing mass murder, mutilation and using the general populace of the people they are supposed to be looking after as cannon fodder is a tad more than a flaw, wouldn't you?While we all know of Hamas' flaws, while they may not have helped Palestine, the plight and suffering and murder of the Palestinians predates the existence of Hamas.
That and having the death of every last Jew in their public charter is somewhat of a PR disaster.
I'm not sure. They didn't know why Hamas weren't held accountable under international law yesterday.Do you think the poster doesn't know this?
The article a bit misleading to anyone who didn't know I think.
Superden
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Bassam Eid, thought it would be a matter of time before his thoughts would be used to critique the Palestinians.Can't find fault with anything in this article. Thanks for sharing.
Hes a high profile commentator for Palestinian affairs on Israeli TV, and his recent works are lauded by right wing islamaphobes like the Henry Jackson Society.
Yep. And the spectacle of destruction was used to generate moral outrage in the streets of several countries based apparently on the wrong information.I saw a bizzarely accurate 471 on Sky or the like at one point.
100%I'd say committing mass murder, mutilation and using the general populace of the people they are supposed to be looking after as cannon fodder is a tad more than a flaw, wouldn't you?
That and having the death of every last Jew in their public charter is somewhat of a PR disaster.
The weird thing is you dont see or acknowledge any of the exact same flaws in the State of Israel.
You do know that over 90% of the victims in this conflict were killed by Israel. That's the greater mass for you.
It's hypocrisy to see it only in one direction.
Pogue Mahone
The caf's Camus.
Come on. You’re a bright guy. This is terrible logic. How is it even possible for a nation to be simultaneously aligned with the individual opinions of every person of the Jewish faith? What they will do, however, is make every effort to been seen as a friend of Israel (Jewish homeland) and clamping down hard on any antisemitism in Germany.Again, I used these two examples specifically for a reason, since they involved 1. arresting an elderly Israeli Jewish woman and 2. refusing to listen to a very prominent Jewish politician. So I don't think they're "doing everything to side with the Jews" - they seem to have decided that Jews=Israel=Israeli foreign policy, which means their terrible wrongs are made up for by diong everything to side with the objectively terrible wrongs of an apartheid state*. (Note that going in the inverse direction, blaming Jews for the actions of Israel, is pretty obvious and widespread anti-semitism, often leading to violence).
These are obvious aims for Germany to have in the context of trying to make right historical atrocities committed by their ancestors. Which, as I said, you seem to be much more supportive of in the context of other countries needing to make reparations for different, less recent, historical wrongs.
Superden
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You could apply that to the Israeli state just as well considering the Palestinians live under their occupation. Many senior Israeli politicians have made quite clear they want the palestenians expelled from their lands. Hasn't been much of a PR disaster for them.I'd say committing mass murder, mutilation and using the general populace of the people they are supposed to be looking after as cannon fodder is a tad more than a flaw, wouldn't you?
That and having the death of every last Jew in their public charter is somewhat of a PR disaster.
I get the initial wrong call can happen and spread but it's still so oddly nebulous. Really weird.Yep. And the spectacle of destruction was used to generate moral outrage in the streets of several countries based apparently on the wrong information.
Drizzle
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This backs up the photographic evidence of the morning after, and from an independent source. No chance this is a targeted Israeli airstrike.Tweet
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And maybe the media and frothing twitter mobs can pause a second when digesting info from Hamas from now on. Just because the Israeli government are liars doesn't mean the other side aren't. And this one is a very big lie.
I think we've long known there is very little truth surrounding war. From any party.This backs up the photographic evidence of the morning after, and from an independent source. No chance this is a targeted Israeli airstrike.
And maybe the media and frothing twitter mobs can pause a second when digesting info from Hamas from now on. Just because the Israeli government are liars doesn't mean the other side aren't. And this one is a very big lie.
KingCantona87
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I do fully accept that Israel has made tremendous mistakes and will no doubt continue to make them moving forward which government in the world hasn't? For me, if Netanyahu fecked off and Hamas fecked off, that would be a dream outcome but sadly neither will happen and we will continue the cycle of death and suffering long after we are gone from this Earth.100%
The weird thing is you dont see or acknowledge any of the exact same flaws in the State of Israel.
The standards to which Israel is held accountable, seem to dwarf any other country. Why do you think that is? The situation in Syria, Yemen and other places never seems to get as much coverage. This isn't a genocide contest though, the world as we can both agree is a shit show. I just want to know why this gets so much focus.
It achieved its aim. A modern-day blood libel always goes down well with the world.This backs up the photographic evidence of the morning after, and from an independent source. No chance this is a targeted Israeli airstrike.
And maybe the media and frothing twitter mobs can pause a second when digesting info from Hamas from now on. Just because the Israeli government are liars doesn't mean the other side aren't. And this one is a very big lie.
Drizzle
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This moral outrage was also adopted by senior western politicians and influential media people.Yep. And the spectacle of destruction was used to generate moral outrage in the streets of several countries based apparently on the wrong information.
Sadly despite mounting evidence coming out that this wasn't Israel, not many have gone back on their original inflammatory responses (some notably have, eg AOC and Mehdi Hasan). And they are in the guise of an addendum for the record, not a full rowing back.
I can't imagine the lads who are burning synagogues, attacking embassies etc will be pouring over the latest evidence and having a rethink.
No. The damage is done. Fantastic work all round..
RedDevil@84
Full Member
Only from few guys posting on the internet. Much of the world or the world media doesn't ask Israel for any accountability. Most nations fund and enable Israel to do whatever it wants.The standards to which Israel is held accountable, seem to dwarf any other country.
I can't tell you why I think it is because I think your assertion is wrong and I don't think that's the case. Hamas and the Syrians are acknowledged as enemies. Israel aren't. And not only that they are funded to the tune of 4 Billion dollars by the US and never criticised for all their killing by most western government.The standards to which Israel is held accountable, seem to dwarf any other country. Why do you think that is? The situation in Syria, Yemen and other places never seems to get as much coverage. This isn't a genocide contest though, the world as we can both agree is a shit show. I just want to know why this gets so much focus.
Israel are the only country allowed and to rewarded for constantly breaking international law and you think they are harshly treated?
KingCantona87
Full Member
So it is only Israel currently breaking international law and being "rewarded" for it..... ? Pretty bizarre comment but you're entitled to your views.I can't tell you why no think it is because it's wrong. Hamas and the Syrians are acknowledged as enemies. Israel aren't. And not only that they are funded to the tune of 4 Billion dollars by the US and never criticused for all their killing by most western government.
Israel are the only country allowed and rewarded for breaking international law and you think they are harshly treated?
MTF
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I disagree with this part. I think it gets about the same amount of coverage that a number (but not all) of conflicts get when they're in an escalatory phase. When Assad was most intensely repressing his adversaries in Syria and enlisted help from Russia to do extensive airstrikes, I think that was generally covered and given front page attention. Similar with other conflicts such as the invasion of Ukraine.The standards to which Israel is held accountable, seem to dwarf any other country. Why do you think that is? The situation in Syria, Yemen and other places never seems to get as much coverage. This isn't a genocide contest though, the world as we can both agree is a shit show. I just want to know why this gets so much focus.
I do think there's some weariness that sets in when a conflict remains similarly deadly/destructive over a period of time but without any notable increases, that causes it to get phased out of front page coverage. But that has also applied to this conflict over the years.
Murder on Zidane's Floor
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Is there any reason you're ignoring half of my post about how the 2nd strongest party in Germany hates the notion of collective guilt while loving Israel, and how this suggests a big contradiction between repentance and foreign policy...?Come on. You’re a bright guy. This is terrible logic. How is it even possible for a nation to be simultaneously aligned with the individual opinions of every person of the Jewish faith? What they will do, however, is make every effort to been seen as a friend of Israel (Jewish homeland) and clamping down hard on any antisemitism in Germany.
These are obvious aims for Germany to have in the context of trying to make right historical atrocities committed by their ancestors. Which, as I said, you seem to be much more supportive of in the context of other countries needing to make reparations for different, less recent, historical wrongs.
On what you've replied to, again, addressing the last point first
Do you think the English should have supported the Fenian Raids against Canada? If the Fenians won and carried out a Native policy similar to other settler colonies, do you think English support for that ethnic cleansing would have been reparations for the Irish famine?
For your first point, do you not see the danger in equating an entire (multi-national) group of people with the actions of an apartheid nation-state? Of course they can't respect every individual Jewish opinion. However, they could have the fecking humility, being the country that did the fecking Holocaust, to listen to diverse Jewish points of view, rather than imposing their own definitions on them. It's audacious. Again, to clarify, I expect them to arrest and beat up Arabs and others saying the same thing, that's simply how the world is.
What is it with this old lady? Do you expect there to be one law for Jews and one for everyone else? The pro Palestine demonstration had been rejected, so they cleared everyone, who showed up to protest anyway. Regardless of religion, gender, age or ethnicity. Like do you expect the police to come up to her, verify that she is indeed Jewish and then make an exception for her? It's such a baffling point to make. People at the demonstrations break the law, in particular with regards to antisemitism and so the police and courts refuse to sign off on further demonstrations.For the last bit, would these reparations involve, for example, support of apartheid South Africa invading a black neighbour or Bantustan whose people had participated in the slave trade? Otherwise I'm *really* struggling to see the parallel, since I specifically used the word "transferring".
Again, I used these two examples specifically for a reason, since they involved 1. arresting an elderly Israeli Jewish woman and 2. refusing to listen to a very prominent Jewish politician. So I don't think they're "doing everything to side with the Jews" - they seem to have decided that Jews=Israel=Israeli foreign policy, which means their terrible wrongs are made up for by diong everything to side with the objectively terrible wrongs of an apartheid state*. (Note that going in the inverse direction, blaming Jews for the actions of Israel, is pretty obvious and widespread anti-semitism, often leading to violence).
While the state is doing this, their fascist AfD party has reached a comfortable second place in their polling. Interestingly, they want to get rid of this collective guilt - but they are totally supportive of Israel, at least according to a cursory google search:
So what does it mean when a far-right party that is opposed to collective guilt, is more Catholic than the Pope when it comes to their policy towards Israel? My suggestion (also in that post) is this uber-hawkish policy is a transfer, rather than acknowledgment.
*I should clarify, this is only part of it of course.
And what is it with trying to turn this into some point about Germany as a whole. Are you even aware that there have been plenty of demonstrations permitted outside of Berlin? I assume, because people there don't find it so hard to follow the law.
And what about Saskia Esken embarrassing herself in a tweet? Should I start to draw conclusions about the UK's state of mind based on Corbyn?
And how does the AfD represent Germany's national maxim, when they've only been around for 10 years and never held a government post? They are pretty aligned with US republicans, so the answer is probably that they are regurgitating what they see in their bubble. They also seem to hate Arabs more than anything in the world - Covid aside, most of their topics seem to center around refugees from the Middle East and Africa.
You don't need to try and read tea leaves by the way or try to draw conclusions from staged twitter videos and thorough cursory google searches. There's plenty of official statements on the government's position. For example this one:
https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/federal-chancellor-israel-visit-2230900
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Beachryan
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Ok. What about the US Department of Defense? Oh wait, sorry they're in with the Israelis and Iraq and yeah. What about the fact the photographed crater is about 2 feet deep, walls 10 feet away are still standing and there's even anti-Israel ballistics experts stating with decent confidence that it almost definitely wasn't a bomb, but something much smaller, landing from much lower?Tweet
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4 of her bullets have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the situation. In a world where Israel definitively had not bombed the hospital, all of those facts would still be true.
The video itself is literally, deliberately and specifically refuting the use of the Al Jazeerah video feed and the single claim from the IDF. That's it. She's just randomly using the words 'ALL EVIDENCE' despite that literally not being what she's retweeting.
It's an utterly terrible framing of an argument and falls apart almost immediately under any scrutiny. I don't blame her. I've no idea who she is, or why I should care what she says. But why are you posting it, given all of that?
It would be interesting to see if some experts have an opinion on this but it could make sense. The Iron Dome is or can be automatic which would explain why IDF needed time to know if it was their missile or something else. The question is what is the size range of rockets debris intercepted by the Iron Dome?Tweet
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MTF
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All of the stated in the tweet can be true, and it still doesn't prove that Israel bombed this particular hospital at that particular hour.Tweet
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I feel weird arguing that a specific war crime isn't so, in the context of other war crimes being committed before and since. But the absolute bending of both evidence and especially logic in this instance just sort of irks me, and I guess the event had significant relevance 2 days ago.
It seems the argument has moved from trying to prove that Israel bombed the hospital, to proving that Israel's official story doesn't fully track and they've been known to lie before, as if that would be the same as proving that they bombed the hospital. Except it doesn't prove that... because logic.
Almost seems like regurgitating everything that comes out of Hamas related sources and bombing the thread with random tweets of unverified Twitter users - unfiltered - may not be a good idea after all.Tweet
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Lash
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Then I retract the only potential saving grace then.Actually you can't, the literal responsible isn't who people may think.
You must be thinking of something else… I didn’t say anything that is not stated by Al Jazeera in their new video.
If you mean this, I don't think they ever definitively say there are no grounds to claim it wasn't a failed rocket launch. They say military experts are still investigating the footage.
Edit: just saw the other video!
B. Munich
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I never denied that there were a thousand people taking shelter.Ok, what do you think the Anglican Church stands to gain by supposedly lying (according to you) that there were a thousand people taking shelter in the car park?
What I have been questioning why I don't see hundreds of dead and injured people in picture after the explosion. All I see are burnt out cars.
Where are all the dead and injured bodies, if these people were still at the parking lot at the time of the explosion?
Both sides playing the propaganda game. I give you that. Still I believe Israel more than an Islamic terrorist organisation like Hamas.Has it ever occurred to you that maybe, just maybe, both sides are trying to win a propaganda war here?
I mean neither 'side' are exactly innocent from atrocities are they?
Both sides killed civilian. Again I see an huge difference between what Hamas did in October 7 and collateral victims caused by Israel's response.
It is a good idea if one supports the Hamas narrative and hopes (as Hamas do) that they can leverage mass carnage to their advantage by animating the Arab street, as well as those in the west who like to protest the latest controversy.Almost seems like regurgitating everything that comes out of Hamas related sources and bombing the thread with random tweets of unverified Twitter users - unfiltered - may not be a good idea after all.
Lash
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Well put. I think there's a bit information war on this particular incident as it sets up the narrative for the incoming ground invasion, which will inevitably have civilian casualties.All of the stated in the tweet can be true, and it still doesn't prove that Israel bombed this particular hospital at that particular hour.
I feel weird arguing that a specific war crime isn't so, in the context of other war crimes being committed before and since. But the absolute bending of both evidence and especially logic in this instance just sort of irks me, and I guess the event had significant relevance 2 days ago.
It seems the argument has moved from trying to prove that Israel bombed the hospital, to proving that Israel's official story doesn't fully track and they've been known to lie before, as if that would be the same as proving that they bombed the hospital. Except it doesn't prove that... because logic.