Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[calodo2003]

Lets agree to disagree...we would go on circles because i can still going on the inconguences

Rock on, brother.

 

[E-mal]

Well it's actually the truth, just coming from an unpopular source

Exactly what did he say that was anti-semitic? That he doesnt consider Hamas terrorists but mujaheedens? Newsflash UN and many nations do not consider Hamas a terrorist organisation. If Hamas is a terrorrist organisation, so is Israel.

 

[Josep Dowling]

This thread is just people trying to find a starting point to this conflict. I don’t care who started it, the reaction from Israel right now is over the top and will only create more friction in that part of the world. Nothing justifies trapping people in a region, cutting off food, water, electric, telephones and emergency aid. It’s disgusting how the Western media are portraying what is happening and slowly the general public are starting to realise the hypocrisy compared to Ukraine.

 

[That_Bloke]

Genocide is a broader term than just "kill all of them". If the ultimate goal of Israel is to gradually force the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank, then that would be genocide.

I think that "ethnic cleansing" would more of an apt description, which would still go against the UN Security Council Resolution 1674 and is of course wrong on any level. I see people throwing around the word "genocide" which has been around since the mid 40's without fully understanding what it entails. Here's what the UN says about this:

"In 1948, the United Nations Genocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly."

Here are few examples of genocides in recent times:

Armenia (1915-23), the Holocaust (1941-45), Cambodia (1971-79), Bosnia (1992-95), Rwanda (1994).

I'd add the 10 stages of genocide, from George Stanton, president of the Genocide Watch, who also criticized the term of ethnic cleansing as a cover-up for genocide.

1. Classification: "People are divided into "us and them."

2. Symbolization: "When combined with hatred, symbols may be forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups..."

3. Discrimination: "Law or cultural power excludes groups from full civil rights: segregation or apartheid laws, denial of voting rights."

4. Dehumanization: "One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects, or diseases."

5. Organization: "Genocide is always organized... Special army units or militias are often trained and armed..."

6. Polarization: "Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda..."

7. Preparation: "Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity..."

8. Persecution: "Expropriation, forced displacement, ghettos, concentration camps".

9. Extermination: "It is 'extermination' to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human".

10. Denial: "The perpetrators... deny that they committed any crimes..."


It is no Bible and there are many caveats but I'd personally say that Netanyahu and some (former) members of its cabinet and current military leadership pretty much fill the bill to an extent, from point 1 to 8. If only based on the declaration made since 7/10 and how Israel and its army have been conducting themselves in the Occupied Territories to this date, especially since Netanyahu came to power. It's still more about the appropriation of land, by any means necessary, rather than targeted and systematic physical elimination of the Palestinians. Also, Gaza is a ghetto, an open-air prison, but not a concentration camp in the sense of what we usually associate with the notion.

Things get muddy after point 8 and we're far, far away from that absolute red line. There's no doubt in my mind that the current Israeli PM has no intention of recognizing any kind of Palestinian State and, quite frankly, wants them driven out of what he considers as Israel's rightful borders. He will also use unrestricted violence to re-establish the "natural order of things", regardless of the Gazan civilian losses. However, an intended genocide as we understand it, it is not, in my opinion. I also doubt that the Israelis, in their overwhelming majority, would go along with it.

 

[the_cliff]

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I'll repeat if an Islamic leader says something like this....

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[Andy_Cole]

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I'll repeat if an Islamic leader says something like this....

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Apparently the situation is complex though! Israel is misunderstood!

Is it feck. GENOCIDE

 

[Giggsyking]

Key is in the words. Criticism of Israels supporters and Zionism in general is anti semitism, but he doesn’t give a feck. Blinded by hatred. He approves of ripping kidnap posters off walls, and he is visibly supportive of Hamas too so it’s par for the course.

Dont make things up.

 

[That_Bloke]

@Roane @calodo2003 @the_cliff
Check the user notes…

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I've seen many of his interviews about the Russian-Ukraine war, and he's a source I'd take with someting like a ton of salt.

 

[MDFC Manager]

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Refreshing honesty.

 

[BootsyCollins]

If we pretend that nothing happened before october, the world started at that time and Hamas did this horrible thing that everyone condemned, as they should.

How can people still watch videos of children blown to pieces, mothers buried under their own homes and fathers dead cowered in dust from bombs and still think, ”yes, this is fair. This is a fair response”?
I pity everyone of you who thinks that this is in any way okey, fair or the ”only way a nation should response”

 

[gfactor86]

If we pretend that nothing happened before october, the world started at that time and Hamas did this horrible thing that everyone condemned, as they should.

How can people still watch videos of children blown to pieces, mothers buried under their own homes and fathers dead cowered in dust from bombs and still think, ”yes, this is fair. This is a fair response”?
I pity everyone of you who thinks that this is in any way okey, fair or the ”only way a nation should response”

But what would have been a fair and proportionate response from Israel?

The proportionate response would have been to invade Gaza, rape, murder and burn 1400 civilians and then take 230 of them back into Israel as prisoners.

Would this have been a fair response?

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

The proportionate response would have been to invade Gaza, rape, murder and burn 1400 civilians and then take 230 of them back into Israel as prisoners.

That is not what proportionality means.

 

[BootsyCollins]

But what would have been a fair and proportionate response from Israel?

The proportionate response would have been to invade Gaza, rape, murder and burn 1400 civilians and then take 230 of them back into Israel as prisoners.

Would this have been a fair response?

No of course not, that would be horrible.
Less horrible than killing over double that, when only counting children, but still horrible and wrong.

I have a question for you. Do you think this is a fair response, and if so, why do you think killing thousands of innocent people is the right response for something you think is something anyone should not do?

 

[nickm]

This thread is just people trying to find a starting point to this conflict. I don’t care who started it, the reaction from Israel right now is over the top and will only create more friction in that part of the world. Nothing justifies trapping people in a region, cutting off food, water, electric, telephones and emergency aid. It’s disgusting how the Western media are portraying what is happening and slowly the general public are starting to realise the hypocrisy compared to Ukraine.

What is the hypocrisy compared to Ukraine?

What justifies the Israeli reaction, to Israelis, is a desire to root out Hamas so they can't do it again. Not that I think that it will work long term, but that is why this is happening.

 

[Denis79]

But what would have been a fair and proportionate response from Israel?

The proportionate response would have been to invade Gaza, rape, murder and burn 1400 civilians and then take 230 of them back into Israel as prisoners.

Would this have been a fair response?

Are comparing them to terrorists? Israel is a democracy, a member of the UN, agreed and signed on to many charters and should act accordingly and within international law.

 

[nickm]

A proportional response is what you do when you are signalling that you don't want to escalate, or that you are trying to deter.

Israel's goal is not deterrence against a threat from Hamas, it is removal of the threat from Hamas.

 

[Halftrack]

But what would have been a fair and proportionate response from Israel?

The proportionate response would have been to invade Gaza, rape, murder and burn 1400 civilians and then take 230 of them back into Israel as prisoners.

Would this have been a fair response?

It would have been as unfair as the actual response.

Are rapists raped as punishment? Are murders murdered? Most of the western world considers the death penalty barbaric, yet we're supposed to okay with Israel bombing the shit out of the children they have stuffed into a ghetto as punishment for someone elses actions?

 

[nickm]

Israel's transformation into Germany in the 1930s is almost complete.

This sort of rhetoric, these sorts of comparisons are childish.

 

[Halftrack]

A proportional response is what you do when you are signalling that you don't want to escalate, or that you are trying to deter.

Israel's goal is not deterrence against a threat from Hamas, it is removal of the threat from Hamas.

It's wild that anyone can watch what is unfolding and still belive that. Childlike naivite.

 

[Halftrack]

These sorts of comparisons are childish.

Yet accurate.

 

[Cloud7]

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This is in response to Musk providing Star link access to humanitarian agencies in Gaza.

It’s a rare sighting these days when Ol Elon is on the right side of something

 

[Raoul]

A proportional response is what you do when you are signalling that you don't want to escalate, or that you are trying to deter.

Israel's goal is not deterrence against a threat from Hamas, it is removal of the threat from Hamas.

The fact that the Israelis are apparently willing to sacrifice their own hostages to remove Hamas is quite telling.

 

[JPRouve]

Israel's transformation into Germany in the 1930s is almost complete.

We really don't need that type of nonsense. You can criticize and even heavily criticize Israel without making inflammatory references to the Holocaust.

 

[ManUtd1999]

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I'll repeat if an Islamic leader says something like this....

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So, they’re looking for Arabs who are Israeli citizens? This is just too bad.

 

[Halftrack]

We really don't need that type of nonsense. You can criticize and even heavily criticize Israel without making inflammatory references to the Holocaust.

Their leader is calling Palestinians the children of darkness, he's making references to the Torah about how they have to kill all the women and children as well, they have a government full of racists who see the Palestinians as a blight to be purged, and last but not least, they're bombing the fecking shit out of a captive population that they keep in a ghetto and are denying even the basics.

And then there's the whole stealing land from the the other Palestinian population that they deny rights to and treat as second class citizens.

Do you think comparing that to Germany in the 1930s offensive? Okay. I find the fact that we have people in here going "this is all Hamas fault", is if Israel has no agency, disturbing. I find the fact that we have people arguing that Israel has to do this disgusting. I find the fact that we have people arguing that Israel is showing restraint mind-boggling.

 

[The United]

It’s a rare sighting these days when Ol Elon is on the right side of something

Probably gonna charge someone for that later or threaten to pull out unless 'someone' pays.

 

[berbatrick]

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[Halftrack]

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But @nickm told us we can't trust those numbers, despite even Israel never having disputed them before.

 

[gfactor86]

I don't agree with what Israel is doing.
But of course understand why they need to get rid of Hamas.

Hamas is literally hiding behind its citizens and bunkered underneath the hospital.

Hamas has no regard for Palestinian or Israeli lives.

What should Israel do in this situation? They are damned either way.

 

[gfactor86]

A humanitarian corridor out of Gaza for women and children should have happened. I can't deny that.

 

[gfactor86]

Egypt could have done more.

 

[ManUtd1999]

Egypt could have done more.

If they leave, they won’t be able to return. This is a very tough situation for everyone.

 

[Halftrack]

I don't agree with what Israel is doing.
But of course understand why they need to get rid of Hamas.

Hamas is literally hiding behind its citizens and bunkered underneath the hospital.

Hamas has no regard for Palestinian or Israeli lives.

What should Israel do in this situation? They are damned either way.

Maybe they shouldn't have done everything in their power to keep Hamas in charge then?

It's incredibly perverse that Bibi and his fellow crooks spent a couple of decades ensuring Hamas remained in charge in Gaza and remained a threat to Israel because it benefitted them, and then when they lost control over thay which they helped create, they now have to kill tens of thousands of innocents, render hundreds of thousands homeless, and subject all of them to inhumane conditions.

 

[BootsyCollins]

I don't agree with what Israel is doing.
But of course understand why they need to get rid of Hamas.

Hamas is literally hiding behind its citizens and bunkered underneath the hospital.

Hamas has no regard for Palestinian or Israeli lives.

What should Israel do in this situation? They are damned either way.

You seem to take a less stout approach now, please continue with that.

So lets turn the tables. You have been asking alot of people what Israel should have done in response to the Hamas attack. What do you think they should have done?

 

[Kaos]

I don't agree with what Israel is doing.
But of course understand why they need to get rid of Hamas.

Hamas is literally hiding behind its citizens and bunkered underneath the hospital.

Hamas has no regard for Palestinian or Israeli lives.

What should Israel do in this situation? They are damned either way.

Let's theorycraft a little bit here.

Lets assume Israel are successful in 'destroying Hamas' whatever that means, lets forget the death count supposedly necessary to do that. What should Israel do going forward to ensure the 10.7 attacks never happen again?

 

[Newtonius]

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Spoiler: 70 years of anti semitic quotes

“Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history, and religion.”
- Haj Amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem
(Radio Berlin, March 1, 1944; quoted in Robert Wistrich, Muslim Anti-Semitism: A Clear and Present Danger [American Jewish Committee, 2002], p. 47)

“If the Jewish state becomes a fact, and this is realized by the Arab peoples, they will drive the Jews who live in their midst into the sea… Even if we are beaten now in Palestine, we will never submit. We will never accept the Jewish state... But for politics, the Egyptian army alone, or volunteers of the Muslim Brotherhood, could have destroyed the Jews.”
- Hassan al-Banna, Muslim Brotherhood founder
(New York Times, August 2, 1948)

“If the refugees return to Israel – Israel will cease to exist.”
- Gamal Abdel Nasser
(Zuercher Woche, West Germany, September 1, 1961; quoted in Harris O. Schoenberg, A Mandate for Terror: The United Nations and the PLO [Shapolsky Books, 1989], p. 239)

“We shall destroy Israel and those behind Israel.”
- General Tahar Zbiri, Algerian Chief of Staff
(New York Times, May 28, 1967)

“Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations… We shall not rest until the day when we return to our home, and until we destroy Israel.”
- Yasser Arafat
(El Mundo, Venezuela, February 11, 1980; The Times, UK, August 5, 1980)

“Without any doubt the PLO is entirely in agreement with the [Fatah] resolution… We wish at any price to liquidate the State of Israel.”
- Ibrahim Souss, PLO representative
(Europe No. 1 Radio, France, June 16, 1980; The Times, UK, August 5, 1980)

“The Prophet of Allah… says: ‘The Last Hour would not come until the Muslims fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them, and until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim or Servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him…’” (Article 7); “They are behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions here and there which we have heard of and are hearing of. With wealth they formed secret organizations throughout the world to destroy societies and promote the Zionist cause; these organizations included the Freemasons, the Rotary and Lions clubs, and others... They are behind the First World War… They are behind the Second World War…” (Article 22); “the Zionist plan has no bounds, and after Palestine they wish to expand from the Nile River to the Euphrates… such is their plan in the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion” (Article 32).
- Hamas Covenant
(Gaza, August 18, 1988; reprinted in Journal of Palestine Studies, Summer 1993, pp. 122-34)

“It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth.”
- Hezbollah statement, issued under Islamic Jihad alias
(United Press International, March 24, 1992)

“It is [an] incontrovertible fact that Palestine is Arab-Islamic and that the Jews are the scum of humanity…” – Salah Khalaf (Abu Iyad) (Al-Qabas, November 28, 1989; quoted in Barry Rubin, Revolution Until Victory? The Politics and History of the PLO [Harvard University Press, 1994], p180)

“It is an open war until the elimination of Israel and until the death of the last Jew on earth.” – Hezbollah statement, issued under Islamic Jihad alias (United Press International, March 24, 1992)

“We plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. Jews will not want to live among Arabs. I have no use for Jews. They are and remain Jews.” – Yasser Arafat, speech to Arab diplomats in Stockholm (Jerusalem Post, February 23, 1996)

“… the criminals, the terrorists – are the Jews… They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah the Almighty said: ‘Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them’ … Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them.” – Dr Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Palestinian Authority cleric (Palestinian Authority Television, October 13, 2000)

“All spears should be directed at the Jews, at the enemies of Allah, the nation that was cursed in Allah’s book. Allah has described them as apes and pigs… We blow them up in Hadera, we blow them up in Tel Aviv and in Netanya… until the Jew will hide behind a stone or a tree, and the stone or the tree will say: Oh Muslim, Oh servant of Allah, a Jew is hiding behind me, come kill him.” – Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, Palestinian Authority cleric (Palestinian Authority Television, August 3, 2001)

“If they [Jews] all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.”
- Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah leader
(Daily Star, Lebanon, October 23, 2002)

“… the Jews are a virus resembling AIDS, from which the entire world suffers…” – Sheikh Ibrahim Mudeiris, Palestinian Authority cleric (Palestinian Authority Television, May 13, 2005)

“My message to the loathed Jews is that there is no god but Allah, we will chase you everywhere! We are a nation that drinks blood, and we know that there is no blood better than the blood of Jews. We will not leave you alone until we have quenched our thirst with your blood, and our children’s thirst with your blood.” – Hamas broadcast (Jerusalem Post, February 17, 2006)

“Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, vanquish the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one.”
- Ahmad Bahr, Palestinian Legislative Council acting speaker
(Sudan TV, April 13, 2007)

“The Prophet of Allah has promised us that the Jews will gather in Palestine, and that the Muslims will fight them, and totally kill them.”
- Muhammad Nimr al-Zaghmout, head of the Palestinian Islamic Council in Lebanon
(Al-Kawthar TV, May 15, 2007)

“By Allah, we will not be satisfied even if all the Jews are killed.”
- Dr. Walid Al-Rashudi, Department of Islamic Studies, King Saud University, Saudi Arabia
(Al-Aqsa TV, February 29, 2008)

“The PLO... has not changed its platform even one iota... the Israeli ideology will collapse in its entirety, and we will begin to progress with our own ideology, Allah willing, and drive them out of all of Palestine.”
- Abbas Zaki, Palestinian Authority representative in Lebanon
(NBN TV, April 9, 2008)

But they have many times, never tried to hide the religious extremism people just choose not to see it for what it is, as long as the jewish home of Israel exists in the 'holy land' there will never be peace, for anyone.

 

[gfactor86]

You seem to take a less stout approach now, please continue with that.

So lets turn the tables. You have been asking alot of people what Israel should have done in response to the Hamas attack. What do you think they should have done?

well no one has answered my question about what Israel should have done after 7/10.

I don't know the answer.

I don't condone this IDF response.But as I said, they have to act. They cannot just accept Hamas firing rockets at them and terrorising civilians. Hamas won't stop until Israel is destroyed. You cannot negotiate with a party that does not recognise your right to exist.

A humanitarian corridor for Women, Children, and Vulnerable people out of Gaza into some UN back refugee camp in Egypt. Get as many hostages out, then turn Gaza to dust.

Then work collaboratively with UAE, Saudi, Egypt to rebuild Gaza as the new state of Palestine.Build proper homes, infrastructure , democratic structures for the refugees who left.

id pull all settlers out of West Bank. Fence it off as Palestine. Major infrastructure project to build tunnel linking Gaza to West Bank.

 

[VivaObertan]

The systematic, state-sponsored killing of thousands of Palestinian men, women, and children and millions of others by Israel

Their leader is calling Palestinians the children of darkness, he's making references to the Torah about how they have to kill all the women and children as well, they have a government full of racists who see the Palestinians as a blight to be purged, and last but not least, they're bombing the fecking shit out of a captive population that they keep in a ghetto and are denying even the basics.

And then there's the whole stealing land from the the other Palestinian population that they deny rights to and treat as second class citizens.

Do you think comparing that to Germany in the 1930s offensive? Okay. I find the fact that we have people in here going "this is all Hamas fault", is if Israel has no agency, disturbing. I find the fact that we have people arguing that Israel has to do this disgusting. I find the fact that we have people arguing that Israel is showing restraint mind-boggling.

Can’t argue with any of this

 

[Realist81]

Just words. Flat track bullies, may be they should attack Turkiye

Israel attacks turkey.

Turkey triggers article 5.

?

 

[gfactor86]

Let's theorycraft a little bit here.

Lets assume Israel are successful in 'destroying Hamas' whatever that means, lets forget the death count supposedly necessary to do that. What should Israel do going forward to ensure the 10.7 attacks never happen again?

You can't guarantee anything when you live in a neighbourhood of hostile countries that want you destroyed