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oneniltothearsenal

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It's all ifs and buts, but Arafat signing what would've been considered an absolute capitulation, would have destroyed the PA for good and empowered the extremists even more. @2cents has rightly, imo, mentioned that both Arafat and Barak were prisoners of societal mechanisms and expectations that made them unable to compromise and I think that it's a fair assessment. I personally refuse the easy and very common trope that holds Arafat for sole culprit in the failure of Camp David and believe that it is a simplistic (and biased) reading of what was happening back then.

No it wouldn't, no matter how many would love it to be the case and find it easier to shift the responsibility to the Arabs Palestinians. Palestine would still not be considered, nor recognized, nor function a state. Israel still had the upper hand and absolute control on palestininan territories and there was nothing done or said about further settlements. The worst of it is that any further revendications from the Palestinian side would've considered been null and void as the proposed accords expressly stated and insisted on. If you can't see that, and why so many wars of independence were fought without compromising on such basic principles, then there's nothing to discuss any further.

There's no two ways about ending this tragedy. Either have two states or exterminate the Palestinians. Anything else is wishful thinking and Israel will never have peace.
Arafat wasn't the "sole culprit" for a deal not being signed but that's not my point. Of course it would have been better for everyone if Israel agreed to remove all their settlements, if Clinton/US were more reasonable and firm about some form of the right to return and put some more pressure on Barak. All parties deserve some blame on a deal not getting done, but that's not my point.

My point is the deal that was on the table that Arafat rejected. Even if it wasn't what Palestinians ideally wanted, that deal still could have materially improved things from what did happen culminating in the current situation. It's easy to see the internal logic of why Barak did not offer more and why Arafat rejected it, but that doesn't change the fact that the rejection looks like the wrong choice for the long-term welfare of Israeli and Palestinian civilians from where we sit now.

Just one example, I think reining in the settlements (even if not completely reversing them) would have improved the situation and incentivized more moderate policies moving forward. I think with even an imperfect agreement, the extremists would have been less empowered than they have been in the last two decades.

You seem to disagree and fair enough, we can agree to disagree. You seemingly believe that no agreement on the table in the past 30 years could possibly have improved things from where we are now. I'm afraid I have to disagree with that notion.

I think most neutral parties want some form of a two-state solution. The question is how to get there when you have extremists in control on both sides that don't want that outcome. For me, the negotiations of Camp David had a chance to realistically move things forward to a better place than where we ended up now. And where we are now seems like the worst of almost all possible outcomes.
 

Beachryan

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I'm not talking about Hamas. I asked a question about palestinians and the options that the international community gives them.

It's kind of strange that to a question about palestinians you answer with Hamas and also claim that I support Hamas' actions while not addressing the question at all. And yes, I am entitled to my opinion and you seemingly have no clue about it.
My apologies, as you eruditely suggest, I have missed your point. Why I would answer a question about what Gazan Palestinians should do with actions their government took is, perhaps, not clear. So fine.

What should individual Gazans do to better their lives in the intolerable situation they find themselves in? I'm not quite sure to be honest. It's clear their government does not encourage differering perspectives. Leaving is impossible. There is no vote to push, as there are no elections. Maybe work with and attempt to ingratiate themselves with the positive forces in Gaza like the various aid organisations? I don't know. As everyone is saying, it's an awful place to be born, an awful place to live and one with agonisingly little hope.

No disagreement there.

Let me flip it around as I'm clearly too dim to understand, what are you proposing the Palestian Gazans should have done?
 

4bars

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I'd open the borders and let them leave today if I was king of Israel. I've also specifically said what I'd like to see happen. (a long ceasefire until they can get an actual cogent military not politician led strategy in place)
So if you would be king of Israel and you would have absolute power, you would not look for a peaceful solution, you would not raise to the occasion and ask for help to the international community. If you would have the absolute power to take decisions in Israel, you would not ask for a 2 state solutions with international solution

In your ideal world with absolute power, where the dreams happen, ethnic cleansing is your solution
 

JPRouve

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My apologies, as you eruditely suggest, I have missed your point. Why I would answer a question about what Gazan Palestinians should do with actions their government took is, perhaps, not clear. So fine.

What should individual Gazans do to better their lives in the intolerable situation they find themselves in? I'm not quite sure to be honest. It's clear their government does not encourage differering perspectives. Leaving is impossible. There is no vote to push, as there are no elections. Maybe work with and attempt to ingratiate themselves with the positive forces in Gaza like the various aid organisations? I don't know. As everyone is saying, it's an awful place to be born, an awful place to live and one with agonisingly little hope.

No disagreement there.

Let me flip it around as I'm clearly too dim to understand, what are you proposing the Palestian Gazans should have done?
At this point I wonder if you are doing it on purpose or not. I asked a question about what are the options offered to palestinians, not just gazans nor Hamas.

And it's not a proposition but an observation that I asked for. The answer for me is nothing, the palestinians have zero options given to them outside of dying and suffering in silence. Funnily enough they don't even have the right to leave the West Bank to go abroad without travel permits from Israel and Jordan.
 

JPRouve

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What’s a more accurate way to describe this news channel? Is it less conservative less far right?
It's not politically marked, so not conservative, nor far right, nor centrist, nor leftist or communist. The only channels that are historically marked are TF1 and France 2, the former tend to lean toward the traditional french right( former RPR) and France 2 have generally leaned toward the PS but you only see it around elections because these channels are generalist most of their programms aren't political.

The actual news channels are balanced, you will see everyone and everything in equal measure.
 

That_Bloke

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Arafat wasn't the "sole culprit" for a deal not being signed but that's not my point. Of course it would have been better for everyone if Israel agreed to remove all their settlements, if Clinton/US were more reasonable and firm about some form of the right to return and put some more pressure on Barak. All parties deserve some blame on a deal not getting done, but that's not my point.

My point is the deal that was on the table that Arafat rejected. Even if it wasn't what Palestinians ideally wanted, that deal still could have materially improved things from what did happen culminating in the current situation. It's easy to see the internal logic of why Barak did not offer more and why Arafat rejected it, but that doesn't change the fact that the rejection looks like the wrong choice for the long-term welfare of Israeli and Palestinian civilians from where we sit now.

Just one example, I think reining in the settlements (even if not completely reversing them) would have improved the situation and incentivized more moderate policies moving forward. I think with even an imperfect agreement, the extremists would have been less empowered than they have been in the last two decades.

You seem to disagree and fair enough, we can agree to disagree. You seemingly believe that no agreement on the table in the past 30 years could possibly have improved things from where we are now. I'm afraid I have to disagree with that notion.

I think most neutral parties want some form of a two-state solution. The question is how to get there when you have extremists in control on both sides that don't want that outcome. For me, the negotiations of Camp David had a chance to realistically move things forward to a better place than where we ended up now. And where we are now seems like the worst of almost all possible outcomes.
There is no point to your "point".

You can't reasonably expect from the palestinian side, or any side for that matter, to agree to an accord that:

- Only gives them, at best, 97% of the 22% of their original territory.
- Allows Israel to control every single strategic road leading in and out of Palestine with the ability to close them at leisure.
- Takes away the most fertile and strategic region they're entitled to (hint: the Jordan Valley).
- Takes away the control of their borders.
- Takes away the control of their airspace.
- Takes away the sovereignty of what the Palestinians consider their legitimate capital (hint: East-Jerusalem).
- Allows Israel to build radar stations on Palestinian territory.
- Forbids Palestine to build any international alliance with any country, without Israel's consent.
- Forbids Palestine to have any kind of military force.
- Forbids the Palestinian refugees driven out during the Nakba to return to their homes.
- To top it all, the Palestinians will be forbidden to make any further revendication once they sign this incredibly generous accord.

And I haven't even touched on the settlements.

So tell me, in your infinite wisdom, how the fvck is that supposed to work? How the the blazing hells could it be considered as a reasonable basis for an independent, functioning state? How is that supposed to improve the long-term welfare of the Palestinians? Why the fvck would Arafat have put his pen on the paper without buying a bullet for his and his own country's head?

If you go by "might is right" and consider the living hell that Gaza was and currently is, as well the West Bank to a lesser extent, then sure, it's an improvement. However it's not quite the bar I'd refer to or what the Palestinians have fought for. Or anything decent if we go by international laws. It also would simply leave "Palestine" at the eternal mercy of its de facto occupier. And as far as I know, Israel doesn't deal with Gandhis.

Camp David never had a chance. It was rushed, ill-thought and ill-timed. None of the parties were ready to make the necessary concessions to make it viable in the long-term. Period. You and many others are living in La-la-land if you truly think that it was the opportunity to shake things up and make them better.

But as you said, let's agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your opinion and you're not going to change mine.
 
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Pintu

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It's not politically marked, so not conservative, nor far right, nor centrist, nor leftist or communist. The only channels that are historically marked are TF1 and France 2, the former tend to lean toward the traditional french right( former RPR) and France 2 have generally leaned toward the PS but you only see it around elections because these channels are generalist most of their programms aren't political.

The actual news channels are balanced, you will see everyone and everything in equal measure.
If I understand things well, they have to give affiliated politicians reasonably equal time according to some rules…

But they are free to employ who they want as political pundits. And this channel in particular seems to be a right wing/far right one?

This is what Wikipedia says about it?

 

JPRouve

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If I understand things well, they have to give affiliated politicians reasonably equal time according to some rules…

But they are free to employ who they want as political pundits. And this channel in particular seems to be a right wing/far right one?

This is what Wikipedia says about it?

That's bullshit. None of the news channel promote a particular movement, some people have an issue with any channel that has a guest or a pundit that don't align with their view regardless of the actual content, Zémmour has been clowned on pretty much every channel including CNews. A few years ago the same nonsense was said about BFM and Bourdain even though Bourdain would invite FN/RN politicians just to make a mockery of them.

In France it is the newspapers that are heavily marked.
 

nickm

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If you would have the absolute power to take decisions in Israel, you would not ask for a 2 state solutions with international solution
Israel could indeed facilitate a 2 state solution but Hamas doesn't want one. Your magic wand has a bit more work to do, unfortunately,
 

oneniltothearsenal

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There is no point to your "point".

You can't reasonably expect from the palestinian side, or any side for that matter, to agree to an accord that:

- Only gives them, at best, 97% of the 22% of their original territory.
- Allows Israel to control every single strategic road leading in and out of Palestine with the ability to close them at leisure.
- Takes away the most fertile and strategic region they're entitled to (hint: the Jordan Valley).
- Takes away the control of their borders.
- Takes away the control of their airspace.
- Takes away the sovereignty of what the Palestinians consider their legitimate capital (hint: East-Jerusalem).
- Allows Israel to build radar stations on Palestinian territory.
- Forbids Palestine to build any international alliance with any country, without Israel's consent.
- Forbids Palestine to have any kind of military force.
- Forbids the Palestinian refugees driven out during the Nakba to return to their homes.
- To top it all, the Palestinians will be forbidden to make any further revendication once they sign this incredibly generous accord.

And I haven't even touched on the settlements.

So tell me, in your infinite wisdom, how the fvck is that supposed to work? How the the blazing hells could it be considered as a reasonable basis for an independent, functioning state? How is that supposed to improve the long-term welfare of the Palestinians? Why the fvck would Arafat have put his pen on the paper without buying a bullet for his and his own country's head?

If you go by "might is right" and consider the living hell that Gaza was and currently is, as well the West Bank to a lesser extent, then sure, it's an improvement. However it's not quite the bar I'd refer to or what the Palestinians have fought for. Or anything decent if we go by international laws. It also would simply leave "Palestine" at the eternal mercy of its de facto occupier. And as far as I know, Israel doesn't deal with Gandhis.

Camp David never had a chance. It was rushed, ill-thought and ill-timed. None of the parties were ready to make the necessary concessions to make it viable in the long-term. Period. You and many others are living in La-la-land if you truly think that it was the opportunity to shake things up and make them better.

But as you said, let's agree to disagree. I'm not going to change your opinion and you're not going to change mine.
If you had a different tone, I'd be willing to engage with you more but I'm not wasting my time when you write like the first bold. The second bold is exactly my point. It would have been an improvement over what currently exists. If that's not the bar you want, fair enough but realistically I don't see a way for the bar you want to have actually happened. And I don't see any reasonable way that agreement would have empowered the extremist elements more on both sides than they have already been empowered. Posts that say the US could just force Israel to negotiate a better deal with the Palestinians are a great idea, but ultimately unrealistic. I'd love it if the US would actually do that, but the reality is, for many reasons, the US was not going to force Israel into better deals. That's not what most of us want, but it is the tragic reality of the situation.

So have a good day.

Oh, I should add the reason I see the Camp David talks as the last opportunity for a deal was because that was the last opportunity pre-9/11. Post-9/11 there simply wasn't/isn't any will on the part of the US to try to force Israel to make greater concessions.
 
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nickm

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They're both situations where a global power with a powerful military is attacking a much less powerful neighbour and killing thousands of civilians in the process.
The differences, which are down to the reasons, the strategic calculations, the alliances, the interests in play, the politics of it - those all matter a great deal. States may very well act hypocritically. Well OK if the label makes you feel better then go for it, but it doesn't get you anywhere - it's just an over simplified and not very useful way of viewing the world.
 

do.ob

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Absolutely it's a disgrace the way Israel have been allowed to treat these people for decades and most western countries are complicit with it. The completely different narratives from western governments and media surrounding what are essentially similar injustices re: Russia>Ukraine and Israel>Palestine is laughably hypocritical.
What was the Ukrainian equivalent to Hamas again?
 
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nickm

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I don’t buy this idea that the U.S doesn’t have significant influence when it comes to Israel.

If the will was there, the U.S and its Western allies could withdraw all aid and funding to Israel, as well as impose sanctions. They just don’t want to. The idea that it’s impossible though is clearly rubbish. They just don’t have the will to do it.
They have influence, arguably they are doing their best to use it (while deterring Iran to stop it becoming a wider regional war, which is what the US really really cares about), but they don't have the ability to impose a solution. It has to be a result of negotiation between the Palestinians and Israel. Not between the US and Israel. The US can facilitate it. They can probably do all kinds of things to sweeten a deal. It is possible an Israel without any US support, alone, no allies, completely isolated, would feel no constraints on its actions at all. And nor for that matter would Israel's enemies - what do you think they might do to a weakened isolated Israel, based on past experience. You think it's bad now with US backing? Imagine how bad it could be without.
 

JPRouve

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What they say is basically the point I made today or at least tried to make. The bias is obvious and it's even worse when people don't even believe the positions they embrace publicly.
 

nickm

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stevoc

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The differences, which are down to the reasons, the strategic calculations, the alliances, the interests in play, the politics of it - those all matter a great deal. States may very well act hypocritically. Well OK if the label makes you feel better then go for it, but it doesn't get you anywhere - it's just an over simplified and not very useful way of viewing the world.
Yeah because reasons, got it.

I find it very useful actually, it cuts through the bullshit people delude themselves with. It's calling it like it is, a nuclear power bombing the shit out of a civilian population in both cases.
 

JPRouve

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Yeah because reasons, got it.

I find it very useful actually, it cuts through the bullshit people delude themselves with. It's calling it like it is, a nuclear power bombing the shit out of a civilian population in both cases.
I had a similar thought. The reasons exposes a bias which is useful when you have to assess the position of a side that claims being on the righteous side. Those reasons should make you pause and think about the situation on your own.
 

ManUtd1999

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It's not politically marked, so not conservative, nor far right, nor centrist, nor leftist or communist. The only channels that are historically marked are TF1 and France 2, the former tend to lean toward the traditional french right( former RPR) and France 2 have generally leaned toward the PS but you only see it around elections because these channels are generalist most of their programms aren't political.

The actual news channels are balanced, you will see everyone and everything in equal measure.
I agree that the French media is generally more balanced than in the U.S. However, I do find C News clearly on the right. Maybe not like Fox News in the U.S., but still on right.
 

2mufc0

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I mean the bar is pretty low then, 'only' 10k deaths later (more than half being women and children) and that's before the destruction of all the civilian infrastructure and other nefarious stuff like destroying fishing boats as side missions. It's like pulling your dog of someone just before it has almost ravaged the victim to death.

Then there's also the other matter of ignoring the apartheid and land grabbing over the years.
 

Idxomer

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The most dangerous country in the world with Russia and the US.
 

Halftrack

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What was the Ukranian equivalent to Hamas again?
The Azov Brigade? And there are credible reports that Ukraine did, before the invasion, torture and subject to sexual abuse suspected pro-Russian prisoners. They were also pretty indiscriminately shelling towns and cities in Donetsk and Luhansk with little care for the civilians there.
 

Jotun

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I've got a 7 month boy and after watching this I'm barely holding tears. My wife walked into the room and I immediately closed the window so she wouldn't see it. I don't think she could handle it.

If this is defending it self, I wonder what is actually carnage?
 

The Corinthian

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I've got a 7 month boy and after watching this I'm barely holding tears. My wife walked into the room and I immediately closed the window so she wouldn't see it. I don't think she could handle it.

If this is defending it self, I wonder what is actually carnage?
I know how you feel. My daughter turned 1 last Saturday and I’ve seen so many videos in the last two weeks of fathers holding their infant babies lifeless bodies. Imagine - I can’t even bring myself to post those ones.

Israel have killed over 3,000 kids in the last 3 weeks. It’s madness and wanton destruction. They have to be brought to heel by the US.