We know Israel tortures Palestinian detainees. Videos of detained Hamas fighters confirming all claims used by Israel to justify bombing civilians are worth about as much as a pot of my piss.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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From the 2014 Gaza War:
Deaths as Israeli tanks shell Gaza hospital: Civilian toll rises as patients die in al-Aqsa Hospital in third attack on medical facility since start of offensive.
Mounting evidence of deliberate attacks on Gaza health workers by Israeli army.
Israel: In-Depth Look at Gaza School Attacks: Three Israeli attacks that damaged Gaza schools housing displaced people caused numerous civilian casualties in violation of the laws of war, Human Rights Watch said today.
How can you possibly believe that Hamas guys "genuinely believe the Israelis don't attack" locations that Israel has attacked in previous conflicts with Hamas?
Deaths as Israeli tanks shell Gaza hospital: Civilian toll rises as patients die in al-Aqsa Hospital in third attack on medical facility since start of offensive.
Mounting evidence of deliberate attacks on Gaza health workers by Israeli army.
Israel: In-Depth Look at Gaza School Attacks: Three Israeli attacks that damaged Gaza schools housing displaced people caused numerous civilian casualties in violation of the laws of war, Human Rights Watch said today.
How can you possibly believe that Hamas guys "genuinely believe the Israelis don't attack" locations that Israel has attacked in previous conflicts with Hamas?
I don't know how you'd expect anyone to produce a meticulous demographical breakdown such as that. But it sounds like you're dangerously close to dehumanising the people of Gaza to the extent of holding them collectively accountable for the sheer human catastrophe they're currently being subjected to.
But to humour this line of thinking - let's say that a plurality in Gaza did support the terror attacks, does it for you justify the losses and suffering they're currently having to endure - including the many thousand women and children?
And conversely, would you deem it appropriate if you applied that same logic to the people of Israel? If for instance the town of Sderot consisted of nothing but those who actively call for the genocide of the Palestinian people, cheerleading the death of women and children - if the town were subjected to a relentless Hamas terror campaign leading to thousands dead, would you consider them unworthy of human concern?
The support for Hamas is probably (and misguidedly) to express frustration at their own quality of life on the strip. This is born out in polling comparing attitudes of the same issues between Gazans and WB'ers (the former consistently having a bleaker perspective than the latter). Quality of life issues, combined with frustrations about Israeli settler activity and Aqsa related issues seem to have driven more Gazans to be more sympathetic to Hamas. That shouldn't of course paint the entire population as supportive of the 10-7 attacks.
And that remains a key issue for Israel and its allies. Even if they were to succeed in destroying Hamas, not only would they have failed to extinguish the underlying reasons why some Gazans would have flocked to their ranks, but they would have also emboldened the very doctrine they stood for. You now have 2.5 million people living in absolute ruin, thousands of which have had their families, livelihoods and mental psyche utterly destroyed by the occupying force, the same force the likes of Hamas use as a rally pointing to garner support.
Yes, whatever the outcome here, they will need to figure out how to rebuild. The hope is that both Hamas and Bibi won't be involved in that process, and it will to some degree be driven by a UN peacekeeping force for a limited period of time.
I believe that human shields had been used throughout history and been ignored by many. I think the term that US used the most was "collateral damage"
If I felt you were actually debating in good faith, I'd make a go at genuinely answering all of this. God knows I've probably bored dozens of people in this thread as well as others over the years with my long posts. I've even done it with people who I suspect aren't debating in good faith but give them the benefit of the doubt.
You so clearly are not however that I guess I'll just give you the answer you want. They're sub human jihadis who deserve everything they're getting and more.
That’s why I’m asking those questions. I do not care about preserving the life of any person that wants to kill me (unless such person can be arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned). However, I do care about preserving the life of any person that hates me but would never have to intention to actually physically harm me. There’s nothing controversial about this. In this particular case we’re talking about Hamas fighters and (civilian) Hamas supporters. My belief is that every single Hamas fighter would want to kill me, given the opportunity. I don’t not care about their lives, in fact I want them gone. This leaves us with the question of civilians who support Hamas. Considering there were so many civilians who, together with Hamas fighters, crossed the border and participated in murder, rape, looting, do I care about preserving their lives? No, I do not (unless they can be arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned, which would obviously never happen). Does this now mean I do not care about preserving the lives of civilians? Well obviously this depends on what kind of civilian you are. Here’s where I’m trying to understand the difference. Would you care about preserving the lives of 500 civilians who a.) have never engaged in combat, b.) at the same time support an organisation whose declared goal is the destruction of my country, c.) and who would also participate in murder, torture and rape given the opportunity? On any given day there are multitudes of civilians who kill their spouses, kidnap children, set fire to houses, commit mass murder in schools and cinemas… would you care about preserving their lives? Sure, if you have the chance to arrest, prosecute and imprison them, yes. Which is what civilised countries across the world are doing on daily basis. However, what do you do with particular groups of civilians who display all my previously listed characteristics a, b, and c?
Regarding children, of course I care about preserving the lives of all children, even if they’re uttering the most abhorrent nonsense from the age of 5 about how they want to kill the Yehud and die as a martyr. They don’t know any better because that’s what they have been brainwashed with. A five year old boy isn’t able to shoot a gun or fire a rocket and actually physically cause any harm. (Most they can do is throw rocks which, to be honest, my father would give me a beating for as it actually can cause death.)
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I'm not sure I understand your underlying point. Are you suggesting that any sympathy or objection to the killing of thousands of people should be conditional on the fact we could 100% ascertain that the majority of them don't endorse terrorism?
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The fecking Israeli PM spokesman blatantly lying and posting an old short film as propaganda..
You could make a book out of the lies coming out of their officials since their bombing started. It's also nothing new, they have always done that.
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Can't imagine the reality of this will look much different to what's already going on. More an attempt to redefine the current image/win back any wavering support.
Agreed. There are probably pockets of time where fighting abates for a period, so all this does is formalize it a bit and provide for a window for supplies to reach people and more people to go south.
I'm not going to read all of that because it's pretty idiotic - I only made it to the 6th sentence, but why would Hamas want to kill you?
10 more Palestinians killed in the West Bank by the terrorist army of Israel.
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This one any better?
Duly noted, thanks.
It's not idiotic because it creates a possible yet unverifiable premise that demonizes gazans. The only thing I know is that in 2023, Hamas was the list supported group among palestinians whether they are from Gaza or the West Bank, also most gazans were in favor of peace.
The article about the most recent poll has been updated.
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org...gainst-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah
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Is it just Israel or those subject to Israeli "interrogation" making these claims though?
Of course if it is true, then the sad reality is that it allows Israel to justify their actions from a legal perspective at least.
Disastrous and by no means a coincidence. The last newsletter from Reporters sans frontières was a horrible read.
Their own fault for sticking around and acting as human shields when the settlers told them to leave.
It doesn't make sense though - the guy is a Eastern European Christian going by his history. Why would he consider himself an enemy of Hamas? It doesn't make any sense.
We've had the usual tropes in this thread of how Hamas would want to kill 'every Israeli' (which is another debate), but why would they care about an Eastern European Christian?
I actually laughed at his logic, I thought he was being sarcastic at the beginning, but then realised he is being serious.
Does this mean that Israeli citizens are at fault for October 7th because they both voted in and haven't revolted against the government responsible for apartheid and ethnic cleansing?
I believe that he was taking the position of an israeli jewish. It's not him personally but if he was in the shoes of an israeli.
The part that doesn't make sense is not the one you are focusing on but the fact that he is making an argument that justifies potential palestinian extremism. Think about it this way, jewish extremists are part of the elected majority, they kill and injure more people on a yearly basis than palestinians do but for some reason there is little public pushback against them in israel and the ones that do are easily labeled as enemies of Israel, these people routinely express their extremist views on mainstream platforms with next to no repercussion. By the logic he applied palestinians should consider that every israeli wants palestinians and palestinian territories destroyed unless they can demonstrate that they don't.
So you tell me, since you are so sure about what is reasonable, if it is reasonable for Israel to defend itself (you say it is), and if in that defence children are killed, was the death of those children reasonable? Yes or no?
Does Israel have a legal and moral responsibility to try to minimise that? Yes of course they do. Does anyone really know what "minimise" actually means in an urban environment where the enemy has 200 miles of tunnels dug under civilian areas? Or where the enemy is deliberately firing rockets from schoolyards? How can you not feel outrage at the methods Hamas is using?
I don't like any of it but war is utterly terrible. At least I'm being honest about it and not just shoving it off onto the politicians so I can feel pure about myself, which you seem to think is an option.
Children aren't being killed as a byproduct of "defending Israel." The Israeli government and the IDF want these children dead, and they are killing them. That is why people are opposed to the Israeli government and the IDF.
You ask as if it's either "Israel does not defend itself" or "Israel defends itself but kills thousands of children". There a lot of fecking room in between those two.
Yes. It means not dropping bombs on refugee camps. It means not cutting power and water. It means not taking out water reserves. It means not preventing critical humanitarian aid from getting in. It means not using WP in densly populated areas. There's a metric feckton of proof that Israel is collectively punishing the Gazan population, and takes very little care with regards to sparing them, yet all you can offer is mealy mouthed bullshit about Israel needing to defend itself and you not being able to tell whether or not they're doing something bad.
You being honest? Good one
You can't even bring yourself to say that cutting water and power and bombing bakeries, water reserves and fishing boats might not be about self-defense.Dozens of Palestinian journalists killed. Many of them killed in airstrikes that targeted their homes.
This is a year after the IDF murdered a Palestinian journalist, lied through their teeth for months about it, and then finally admitted it and said they wouldn't punish anyone.
You do not want to see what is right in front of you. So you hide it under a "fog of war."
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Ah got ya, and totally agree. Any claim you make about Hamas you can make the same about the Israeli government. They’re both sides of the same coin.
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It was the most transparently obvious PR push, some captured terrorist (hopefully not some other random captured guy) reading a script, and the world's worst """""""'news"""""""" site doing a factually-challenged expose, in order to give State Dept bozos something to say when asked.
It is kind of cool that the Israel govt. is pretty open about thinking westerners have the brain of a golden retriever.
Can you provide context to that tweet, when has israel suggested that the journalists killed were Hamas partisans?
It’s something @calodo2003 posted last night from HonestReporting (another Israeli Memri regen) about these reporters being embedded in Hamas. I doubt the veracity or reliability of anything posted from such bias sources personally, and one that has a track record of embellishing claim. I’m yet to see another news site run the same story.