Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

That_Bloke

Full Member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
2,879
Location
Cologne
Supports
Leicester City
What's appalling is to see a young woman whose life has been snuffed out for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and a symbol, among many, of the insanity that's been going on for decades in this part of the world.

Now before one decides what's what in terms of being buried either inside or outside the cemetery, we should hear first from a well-versed person how Judaism usually deals with these cases. I would personally have let her be buried inside. It seems to me to be the right thing to do and I see no reason against it. However I'm not of jewish confession and my knowledge on this matter is too limited to judge.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
6,737
Location
Ireland
I really need to get educated more about Northern Ireland conflict, The Troubles. Closest I got was in Gladwell's book David and Goliath where he argued British attempt to enforce authority backfired. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that it appears IRA took an "L" in "The Troubles" conflict and in return they got few concessions from the British. The same will have to happen in this conflict - Palestinians will have to take an "L" along with whatever favorable agreements they can get from Israelis. Appears that Palestinians do not want to take an "L" and their strategy is to continue to inflict damage to Israeli civilians to which Israelis respond unevenly. Doesn't bring me any pleasure in saying this - but the side getting overwhelmed should work toward peace and ensure there are no organizations within it jeopardizing the path toward peace. If Palestinian strategy is to protect Hamas so they can murder Israeli civilians, so Israelis just pack up and leave then they will have to live with harsh responses like this.
Ahh yes, it's the civilians fault because they haven't gotten rid of Hamas themselves, does it make you feel good justifying ethnic cleansing and genocide?
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
6,737
Location
Ireland
What's appalling is to see a young woman whose life has been snuffed out for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and a symbol, among many, of the insanity that's been going on for decades in this part of the world.

Now before one decides what's what in terms of being buried either inside or outside the cemetery, we should hear first from a well-versed person how Judaism usually deals with these cases. I would personally have let her be buried inside. It seems to me to be the right thing to do and I see no reason against it. However I'm not of jewish confession and my knowledge on this matter is too limited to judge.
That doesn't sound very fair on her or her family, regardless of Jewish practices. What's more important, a murdered woman or an imaginary bloke in the sky?
 

That_Bloke

Full Member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
2,879
Location
Cologne
Supports
Leicester City
That doesn't sound very fair on her or her family, regardless of Jewish practices. What's more important, a murdered woman or an imaginary bloke in the sky?
I fully agree with you but as I said, I don't know what the rules are. There are a few Israeli posters who could maybe shed some light on the matter.
 

That_Bloke

Full Member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
2,879
Location
Cologne
Supports
Leicester City
Ahh yes, it's the civilians fault because they haven't gotten rid of Hamas themselves, does it make you feel good justifying ethnic cleansing and genocide?
The guy @ExoduS referred to in their first post about Joe Rogan's podcast is Timothy Kennedy, a former US special forces sergeant and retired MMA fighter. As you can see, Kennedy has all the right credences to be cited as a reputable source to base your own analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict on and get the appropriate conclusions.

Norman Finkelstein labelled Kennedy as a "flaming imbecile". I've heard that bit on Joe Rogan's podcast and personally think that it couldn't any be more fitting description. Any poster quoting this idiot can't and shouldn't be taken seriously. Unless they were indeed sarcastic, which is hard to tell in this thread.
 
Last edited:

Dirty Schwein

Has a 'Best of Britney Spears' album
Joined
Feb 6, 2012
Messages
32,168
Location
Miracle World
Supports
Luton Town
The guy @ExoduS referred to in their first post about Joe Rogan's podcast is Timothy Kennedy, a former US special forces sergeant and retired MMA fighter. As you can see, Kennedy got all the right credences to be cited as a reputable source to base your own analysis of the Israel-Palestine conflict on and get the appropriate conclusions.

Norman Finkelstein labelled Kennedy as a "flaming imbecile". I heard that bit on Joe Rogan's podcast and personally think it couldn't any be more fitting description. Any poster citing this idiot can't and shouldn't be taken seriously. Unless they were indeed sarcastic, which is hard to tell in this thread.
I follow UFC a lot and can unequivocally say that Tim Kennedy is one of the dumbest idiots walking the earth.
 

ScholesyTheWise

Full Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2022
Messages
1,077
What's appalling is to see a young woman whose life has been snuffed out for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and a symbol, among many, of the insanity that's been going on for decades in this part of the world.

Now before one decides what's what in terms of being buried either inside or outside the cemetery, we should hear first from a well-versed person how Judaism usually deals with these cases. I would personally have let her be buried inside. It seems to me to be the right thing to do and I see no reason against it. However I'm not of jewish confession and my knowledge on this matter is too limited to judge.
Because the Bible doesn't refer to a lot of day-to-day stuff, there was a need to expand on it. Thus came about some books, and the most important of them to the actual ruling is the Halakha. it was written hundreds of years ago and current rabbis keep expanding on it but based on it, if that makes sense.
I'd think that Immams in mosques do the same.

Anyway,
According to the Halakha, you don't bury a non-Jew next to Jews. can't remember why exactly.
now, this woman was on her way to becoming Jewish by conversion which is specific for soldiers of the IDF (it's faster and disliked by orthodox Jews, but they have no choice but to accept it and the converted people as Jews).

Seeing as she didn't complete the process, she is considered a non-Jew.
Her body must have been sent, after identification, to Khevra Kadisha, which is the organization that is in charge of burials in Israel.
They go by the Halakha. There are indeed several "civil (secular) cemeteries" in Israel and you can ask to be buried there,
but most people don't do that- whether by lack of thought, knowledge, money (I assume it's more expensive), or other reasons.

so the Khevra Ksddisha buried the murdered young lady in a different part of the cemetery dedicated to non-Jews,
because for them that's the way to go, no exceptions seeing as this is god's will.

After a huge public outcry, I saw an article where some Rabbis who are responsible for this or that on a national level,
saying that there should have been at least a consideration to make an exception, because the Halakha has solutions to everything, essentially.
Some of them said she should have been buried regularly because she was murdered as a Jew.

I wonder how it will be resolved.
 

Pintu

Full Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
4,196
Location
Sweden
Western anchors exposing themselves as heartless b*****. Episode 43959599

 

That_Bloke

Full Member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
2,879
Location
Cologne
Supports
Leicester City
Because the Bible doesn't refer to a lot of day-to-day stuff, there was a need to expand on it. Thus came about some books, and the most important of them to the actual ruling is the Halakha. it was written hundreds of years ago and current rabbis keep expanding on it but based on it, if that makes sense.
I'd think that Immams in mosques do the same.

Anyway,
According to the Halakha, you don't bury a non-Jew next to Jews. can't remember why exactly.
now, this woman was on her way to becoming Jewish by conversion which is specific for soldiers of the IDF (it's faster and disliked by orthodox Jews, but they have no choice but to accept it and the converted people as Jews).

Seeing as she didn't complete the process, she is considered a non-Jew.

Her body must have been sent, after identification, to Khevra Kadisha, which is the organization that is in charge of burials in Israel.
They go by the Halakha. There are indeed several "civil (secular) cemeteries" in Israel and you can ask to be buried there,
but most people don't do that- whether by lack of thought, knowledge, money (I assume it's more expensive), or other reasons.

so the Khevra Ksddisha buried the murdered young lady in a different part of the cemetery dedicated to non-Jews,
because for them that's the way to go, no exceptions seeing as this is god's will.

After a huge public outcry, I saw an article where some Rabbis who are responsible for this or that on a national level,
saying that there should have been at least a consideration to make an exception, because the Halakha has solutions to everything, essentially.
Some of them said she should have been buried regularly because she was murdered as a Jew.

I wonder how it will be resolved.
Thanks a lot for the explanation.

I'm better informed about Islam without being part of it, but as far as I know, you're correct in your assessment. Non-Muslims can't be buried next to Muslims, unless there's no other way. The definition of the jewish word "Halakha" is also very similar to the arabic "Akhlaq" which also defines "a code of conduct and good manners under the precepts of Islam". A walk of life. Or am I wrong in my comparison?

She didn't complete the process because she was murdered, it's not like she jumped out. I know that becoming a Jew is quite an arduous and lengthy process but the intent was already there, and the conversion was underway. Unless you go by a very literal interpretation of the Halakha. A way of thinking that I always found to be dangerous and impratical, no matter which religion it refers to.

In my opinion, there shouldn't be any objection to her burial inside a jewish cemetery.
 

The Corinthian

I will not take Mad Winger's name in vain
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
11,888
Supports
A Free Palestine
Thanks a lot for the explanation.

I'm better informed about Islam without being part of it, but as far as I know, you're correct in your assessment. Non-Muslims can't be buried next to Muslims, unless there's no other way. The definition of the jewish word "Halakha" is also very similar to the arabic "Akhlaq" which also defines "a code of conduct and good manners under the precepts of Islam". A walk of life. Or am I wrong in my comparison?

She didn't complete the process because she was murdered, it's not like she jumped out. I know that becoming a Jew is quite an arduous and lengthy process but the intent was already there, and the conversion was underway. Unless you go by a very literal interpretation of the Halakha. A way of thinking that I always found to be dangerous and impratical, no matter which religion it refers to.

In my opinion, there shouldn't be any objection to her burial inside a jewish cemetery.
Could also be linked to the Arabic word halaqa as well (the literal meaning is circle but wider connotation is religious gathering). Halakha has similar intimations (literally means 'the way' with a wider intimation of talmudic teachings).
 

the_cliff

Full Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2013
Messages
5,629
Have the IDF found and destroyed the tunnels under Shifa yet?
They've been their for hours and yet no proof of tunnels or Hamas HQs, maybe they're setting up a hollywood set. This time they need to do better and not get confused with days of the week and names of terrorists.
 

Idxomer

Full Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2014
Messages
15,355
They've been their for hours and yet no proof of tunnels or Hamas HQs, maybe they're setting up a hollywood set. This time they need to do better and not get confused with days of the week and names of terrorists.
They've arrested all journalists in the area so it's much easier to spread their lies without anyone challenging them.
 

adexkola

Doesn't understand sportswashing.
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
48,492
Location
The CL is a glorified FA Cup set to music
Supports
orderly disembarking on planes
They've been their for hours and yet no proof of tunnels or Hamas HQs, maybe they're setting up a hollywood set. This time they need to do better and not get confused with days of the week and names of terrorists.
They need to consult with the guys who staged the moon landings
 

Iker Quesadillas

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
4,031
Supports
Real Madrid
That there are tunnels in that particular hospital doesn't seem to be any kind of mystery. "We all know there are bunkers and tunnels because the Israelis built some of them when they were in control of the al Shifa hospital before 2005," is a quote from a Sky News military analyst.
 

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,188
Location
Interweb
Media coverage in US is turning against Israel in US now. Even NYT comment section, which is good indicator of liberal Hillary/Biden supporting Democrats, is turning against Israel after initially they were all for Israel eradicating Hamas for Oct 7 attack. The generational divide within Democrats over Israel-Palestine issue can cost Biden the election. And ultimately that might be the issue that forces him to reign in Israel in some manner here.
 

Raoul

Admin
Staff
Joined
Aug 14, 1999
Messages
130,322
Location
Hollywood CA
Media coverage in US is turning against Israel in US now. Even NYT comment section, which is good indicator of liberal Hillary/Biden supporting Democrats, is turning against Israel after initially they were all for Israel eradicating Hamas for Oct 7 attack. The generational divide within Democrats over Israel-Palestine issue can cost Biden the election. And ultimately that might be the issue that forces him to reign in Israel in some manner here.
I haven't seen any indication of any significant anti-Israel sentiment in the US. If anything, the fact that the Israel-Hamas war is receiving less coverage each day because of other stories, is suggestive the initial round of negative sentiment has subsided as the story is in the news much less than last month. What this means for the war is less American pressure for the Israelis to moderate their ways in Gaza.
 

That_Bloke

Full Member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
2,879
Location
Cologne
Supports
Leicester City
Ian Bremmer in an interview date from 11/9 on Palestine and Israel's domestic situation before 10/7, its relationship with the Arab Gulf States, the Israeli response to the massacre, Hamas' strategy, the US support, prospects of peace and the two-state solution.

 

Iker Quesadillas

Full Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2021
Messages
4,031
Supports
Real Madrid
The Indonesian President is calling for a ceasefire because he's afraid if things keep going the IDF will find the top secret documents that show the Indonesian Hospital in Gaza was built by Hamas.
 

That_Bloke

Full Member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
2,879
Location
Cologne
Supports
Leicester City
I haven't seen any indication of any significant anti-Israel sentiment in the US. If anything, the fact that the Israel-Hamas war is receiving less coverage each day because of other stories, is suggestive the initial round of negative sentiment has subsided as the story is in the news much less than last month. What this means for the war is less American pressure for the Israelis to moderate their ways in Gaza.
I honestly don't think that it's the case.

The current Israeli military campaign is predictably turning into a PR disaster for the Israeli government, and no matter how little it means on the current operations, the international opinion has well and truly turned. And I don't believe that the US government is blind to it.

You just can't get away with +11,000 dead with about half of them being children, every meaningful infrastructure and 43% of the residences in Gaza being either damaged and destroyed, no food, no water, no power, no medical aid allowed for the civilian population, all of it within a month. A child is dying every ten minutes in Gaza right now. And the IDF hasn't even begun to make a real dent to the Hamas structures for which weeks, if not months more, will be needed. The little IDF show of soldiers bringing baby food and medical supplies to the Al Shifa hospital won't change anything. This is well above anything the West would've tolerated from any ally if it weren't for Israel, and even then, too much is just too much at some point.

The humanitarian crisis is real, there's no visible end game and the post-war consequences are potentially catastrophic in the short as well as in the long-term. Something needs to change and fast.
 
Last edited:

crappycraperson

"Resident cricket authority"
Scout
Joined
Dec 26, 2003
Messages
38,188
Location
Interweb
I haven't seen any indication of any significant anti-Israel sentiment in the US. If anything, the fact that the Israel-Hamas war is receiving less coverage each day because of other stories, is suggestive the initial round of negative sentiment has subsided as the story is in the news much less than last month. What this means for the war is less American pressure for the Israelis to moderate their ways in Gaza.
I will be honest, I was pretty much going by NYT/WaPo coverage of the war for my take, so I will take your word on media coverage. Overall I still feel if this issue dampens some enthusiasm amongst young Democrat voters it can cost Biden the election. I also don't believe US will allow Israel to go even more belligerent given the international pressure from other allies in the region. That's recipe for disaster for sure.
 

Ali Dia

Full Member
Joined
May 10, 2013
Messages
14,346
Location
Souness's Super Sub/George Weahs Talented Cousin
Ireland voting tonight on a bill which may possibly see us expel the Israeli ambassador and report Israel to the ICC for the constant violation of international law. I really don’t see it happening, our mainstream politicians will vote against as they’ve been very slow to condemn Israel in any way that may upset the business status quo. From what I gather Sinn Fein, Social Democrats and people before profit are the parties behind the bill. I hope we can lay down a marker and then other countries follow suit. I want us to be on the right side of history and that this can be the start of something resembling lasting peace and justice for Palestinians. Hopefully something lasting and positive can eventually come out of this horror for ordinary peaceful people in the region.
 

roseguy64

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
12,258
Location
Jamaica
I really need to get educated more about Northern Ireland conflict, The Troubles. Closest I got was in Gladwell's book David and Goliath where he argued British attempt to enforce authority backfired. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that it appears IRA took an "L" in "The Troubles" conflict and in return they got few concessions from the British. The same will have to happen in this conflict - Palestinians will have to take an "L" along with whatever favorable agreements they can get from Israelis. Appears that Palestinians do not want to take an "L" and their strategy is to continue to inflict damage to Israeli civilians to which Israelis respond unevenly. Doesn't bring me any pleasure in saying this - but the side getting overwhelmed should work toward peace and ensure there are no organizations within it jeopardizing the path toward peace. If Palestinian strategy is to protect Hamas so they can murder Israeli civilians, so Israelis just pack up and leave then they will have to live with harsh responses like this.
John Oliver's recent episode on this should be illuminating to you on how Palestinians view Hamas and their desire for peace.
 

4bars

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2016
Messages
5,000
Supports
Barcelona
Evidence would suggest that you are being very optimistic. I'm well over 3 decades past expecting Israel to act like the adult in the room after having lived there for 6 months in the late 80's. I've lived in Egypt and UAE as well so I have a similarly dim view from that perspective as well. Much to admire but a great deal not to admire.

When a democratic state gets into the situation (however that occurs) where they are occupying a bit of land where the local population is other, wants them gone and a terrorist organisation arises, then that democracy will pander to the majority of the electorate when a terrorist attack occurs not matter the history, and that will rarely be a path of restraint. Anything less is usually seen as rewarding terrorists. It happened in the UK with Northern Ireland and it is happening/has happened here. The big difference is that few or none of the players in this conflict want a workable solution. The West Bank is now such a mass of settlements that I can't see how that can be made to work under a 2 state solution (exactly the point of Israeli settlement). Hamas are happier trying to wipe out Jews and Israel and any version of a 2 state solution they would be part of won't fly for anyone else (as it will be delusional in nature and scope). Including land outside Gaza and The West Bank is a no go for the neighbouring countries. Governments talking to terrorists, with both wanting a peaceful solution is required to get a solution and we are nowhere near that here. In fact we are further away than ever.

I'm not against calling out bad behaviour by everyone, rather the opposite, but the current bias to Hamas e.g. they say they don't have military operations in hospitals and people believe that, yet blindly assuming Israel are lying about everything, even things as obvious as Hamas using hospitals and the like as cover, does nothing to further anything. You can accept that both sides are engaging in misinformation and propaganda while at the same time thinking Israel shouldn't attack hospitals no matter what (or that they should do so with more care or whatever) and most of all you can think badly of just about all players in this. I do. But the ludicrous levels of confirmational bias displayed in this thread (mainly pro-Palestinian, but also pro-Israeli by some posters) simply demonstrates how divided and intractable the situation is.
I think that we mainly agree on everything. Hamas included. If i am part of the Hamas optics that you mention, i believe and i can only talk for me but i think i can extrapolate that evrybody believe that Hamas has tunnels and i believe a majorty accepts or can accept that they have them under key infrastructures using them as human shields, because it makes sense in a terrorist strategy POV, but in my opinion i dont see how bombing the hospital would affect this tunnels as the only way would be wipe out the hospital with a big crater. Bombing here and there it seems that they are more interested on destroying the infrastructure to make living in gaza untenable for civilians the same for other infrastructures. It would make more sense, if they would have a minimum respect for the civilians to bomb the surroudings and then raid the hospital and the posible tunnels. Or not having any regards and obliterate the hospital in hopes of destroying the tunnels. But it seems that the primary objective is to make civilians lives miserable more than go after hamas. The fake staged videos dont help either. And bombing fishing boats (no tunnels under boats, just clarifying) helps that view of going after the civilian population more than the hamas tunnels that are used as an excuse.

Summarizing, i dont think that anyone denies the tunnels, and anyone or mostly anyone dennies the plausibility of these tunnels to run below these infrastructures, but it seema at least to me that is a secondary point and is just un excuse for what israel is doing to the palestinian population