You can't ignore the role race plays in these discussions either. This is only my opinion, and I could be completely wrong, but I get the impression the average European without much knowledge of the history of this conflict would empathise more with the Israeli Jew than with the Arab Muslim.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
How is this not flagged as anti-semitic trash?
This is arguable. More accurate would be "Not all muslims hate Jews"
Somebody forgot to send the Druze the memo on this.
How is this not flagged as Islamaphobic?
I would say it depends on the history of an individual's country, to a certain extent. In Ireland, for example, people would generally support the Palestinian cause, as there are similarities between what is happening to the Palestinians, and what the British did to Ireland, historically.
It's not arguable in the slightest. It's no less arguable than saying something like Jews hate Arabs or Muslims, which I'm sure would prompt an accusation of anti semitism if you saw it.
Out of interest, what part of Fred's post do you consider anti semitic? Do you think the Rwandan or Armenian genocides for instance, rightly or wrongly, have anywhere near we much impact on the collective European psyche or views of history as the holocaust does?
Anti-semitic? that's the plain truth, Europe has and still is paying for the atrocities committed in WW2 despite not all countries partaking in it, re-read the post before you get all emotional dear.
You need to stop throwing around nonsense accusations.
I guess, some may consider that criticizing Israel(the state) is anti semitic? I don't agree with it but I suppose that it's the part he had an issue with.
That assertion is unfortunately not untrue as a general rule either. Islamophobic sentiment and prejudice in the Jewish community is far beyond what is acceptable. If you put 100 Jews in a room, I'm sure over 50% would be prejudice against arabs/muslims.
And this part: "Israel is so good at playing the victim role and having been doing so for around 60-70 years now, time to wake up." - The idea that Israel (it doesn't?) or I presume he means Jews 'play the victim role' 'and have been doing for 60-70 years.' It's a completely unneeded and unprompted bringing up of the holocaust, connecting it to Israel, and somehow saying that israel plays a 'victim' over it ???? Add in a nice healthy dose of whataboutism to something that doesn't even make sense and you get his entire paragraph.
It's quite ironic that the first thing you did was make them the victims again when the comment wasn't Anti-Semitic. Its very easy nowadays to just shout Anti-Semitic to avoid any criticsm of your own behaviours.
https://qurantalkblog.com/2020/05/14/what-is-the-meaning-of-وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ-in-434-of-quran/
I read arabic too so in the context here it's what it means, would it be possible to share a link for the classical scholars?
ما حق زوجة أحدنا عليه ؟ قال : " يطعمها ويكسوها , ولا يضرب الوجه ولا يقبح ولا يهجر إلا في البيت " - Prophet Quote
If you read arabic, it says that you cannot hit the face, doesn't say that you can't beat women.
I don't have a 100 people sample but out of a dozen, some of them being Israelis. My experience is around 2 or 3 out of a dozen, not 50% but those people go as far as claiming that arabs are subhuman, literally. The rest consider that they are brothers/cousins.
Who are paying? what are they paying? And what does it have to do with Israel?
The Sky News presenter is currently doing a good job of holding the ambassador in Tel Aviv to account. I've been impressed by their coverage over the last few days.
You can oppose the actions of the State of Israel and not be anti-Semitic.
There are Jews who oppose the actions of the State of Israel.
There are Jews who oppose the actions of the State of Israel.
You don't have to think somebody is subhuman to have prejudice against them though. Ask a dozen jews questions like: "Are muslims more likely to be terrorists?" "Do muslims only care about other muslims?" "Are muslims responsible for war in the middle east?" "Are muslims a trustworthy people" and you'd get unsavoury answers.
What? Calling out a comment doesn't make anybody 'victims.' Neither jews or the state of Israel are affected by his bile. That doesn't mean it's not bile.
Nobody is saying otherwise but some posts are running very close to crossing into AS. I’ve seen people compare Israel’s policies today to Nazi policies in the 1930’s, which I believe is antisemitic according to the IHRA definition.
You couldn't refute it you just claimed anti-semitism. Victim mentality.
That's not what I said, I said that the people I know to have prejudices go as far as calling them subhuman. It's anecdotal but I have been in the middle of these conversations and the observation that I shared with you was that around me it was closer to 10%-20% than 50%.
What's anti semitic about it ?
I almost replied to his post with "The price of gold is up 5% in the last 30 days" but didn't want to be too cheeky in this thread hah.
Fair enough. I don't have statistics of Jewish attittudes to muslims. I know that for sentiment on Jews you can search here: https://global100.adl.org/country/united-kingdom/2019
These are valid points, and when you factor into the equation that most Israelis are atheists, and approve of liberal practices considered an abomination according to the law of Moses, it does raise questions. I may take this subject into the religious thread later if I have time.
The Jewish and Christian take on it would be interesting. However, there is the homeland security side of things if Israel relinquished occupied territories. It'd be interesting what the response here would be if Israel returned Gaza and the West Bank to the Palestinians, but the rockets kept being fired into Israel.
This is very true, it's been heartening to see the response from the Irish in the last week.
What are they paying? 55bn euros so far from Germany alone, a Luxembourgish agreement in Jan 2021 because the nazis carried Jews from Luxembourg to concenration camps (as if Luxembourg, who was both invaded by Napoleon and the Nazis could have had a say in it), the Veto in most decisions to condemn Israel's for its war crimes against the palestinians and other arabs, etc... Israel is so good at playing to victim's role. The Armenian genocide was only acknowledged this year by Biden, and that was on the same level of what happened to the Jewish people in WW2 (which I am totally against because no human being should endur this), but why the double standards? Why the holocaust becomes a word that cannot be uttered whereas other genocides go unnoticed? Did Israel accept or acknoweldge the armenian/cambodian genocides?https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-israel-wont-follow-bidens-lead-and-recognize-armenian-genocide/
I think you should have a deep look at the double standards Israel lives by before you get too emotional, the whole planet is quite fed up with Israel's constant breaches of human rights while Europe and the USA are quick to deny it with their Veto.. the IDF on their instagram page portray the poor israelis going to shelters, and talks about how good they are when they tell Hamas in advance that they are going to bombard building X/Y/Z, as if this is something to accept. Israelis have shelters, palestinians have nothing, you should wake the feck up.
You couldn't make this shit up. Moaning about something being anti-semitic then typing something Islamophobic in the same message.
I believe IHRA’s definition focuses on speaking badly against Jews, not the state of Israel, which is what most of the criticisms in this thread are about - specifically Israeli policy.
I’ve seen both of these in this thread.
https://www.holocaustremembrance.co...ions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism
- Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
- Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
You might want to give this comprehensive report a read.
https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/...horities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution
The state of Israel, conceived, in practice, as a state of Jewish supremacy, is indeed a racist endeavour. The report is conclusive and is part of proceedings scheduled for the ICC.
1) what @Raoul said
2) Israel’s government is doing fascist stuff.
You can joke about it all you want, but the State of Israel =/= the Jewish people. It isn’t anti-Semitic to criticize a government for its actions.
Lead by the greatest antisemite of all, Hannah Arendt. I was quite surprised to read IHRA’s definition to be honest, everything is so well-written and unarguable and suddenly you have a get-out-of-the-jail-free card for the Israeli state’s policies.
No, it's more calling the apartheid Afrikaners racist. It's true and doesn't need reducto ad absurdio analogies.
The IHRA definition is largely misapplied, with even the author coming out against it's use. The islamophobia and apartheid apologia going on in this thread should be of far greater concern.
But didn’t they ban Israeli players from coming into the UAE? I recall Yossi Benayoun being refused a visa when he was at WHU. Have things changed?
In previous years the Saudis were openly helping the PLO much to the consternation of Saudis in general. I once acted as tour guide for a member of the ruling family and he told me how much Palestinians were hated
IHRA’s definition is quite conflicting on its own.
- Criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic
- Examples of antisemitism include: drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis
But it does. You can't get it into your head that the Arab's rejectionist policies and pogroms started all this. And that is the problem.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54574022
You haven't watched a lot of news lately have you! UAE already signed, talks about KSA doing the same, then the rest following...
Yes but you said Apartheid Afrikaners which is a generalisation in itself as not all supported the regime and some English South Africans did!
I have friends in Israel who are openly critical of the Israeli govt stance on Palestine/ homesteads being built etc.
You’re right I haven’t, that’s why the post was posed as a question. And I was right in that they aren’t the greatest lovers of the Palestinians
Dude he was discussing the 'victim mentality' of 'Israel' - He literally said, and I quote: "Israel is so good at playing the victim role and having been doing so for around 60-70 years now, time to wake up."
60 years ago is 1961, just before the 6 day war. 70 years is 1951, just after the formation of Israel and the end of the holocaust..
How in any way has 'Israel' as a government, played the victim in any way? They have robustly defended against multiple invasion attempts and terrorism. One would be more accurate characterizing them as a regional superpower or even aggressor these days. So who does he mean when he says "Israel is so good at playing the victim role and having been doing so for around 60-70 years now, time to wake up."
Bear in mind he preceded this comment with the following quote: " Europe (in general) still pays them to this day for the atrocities committed, despite so many countries not having to do anything with the genocide itself. "
Directly complaining about reparations and how Israel is 'playing the victim' for the holocaust.
Europe (in general) still pays them to this day for the atrocities committed, despite so many countries not having to do anything with the genocide itself. Add to the fact that it was Britain who kind of brought them back to the middle-east and eventually erupted this conflict since 48. There have been way more atrocities committed across the globe (armenian genocide, cambodian genocide) but nobody admits/mentions them, Belgium alone killed half of the cambodian population yet nobody nags about it. Israel is so good at playing the victim role and having been doing so for around 60-70 years now, time to wake up.
The whole paragraph.
- Europe pays for the Holocaust. Despite many countries not being responsible. Because israel plays the victim.
- Britain kind of brought 'them' aka Jews back to the middle east
- Britain erupted this conflict since 48
- What about the other atrocities and victims. Nobody mentions them BECAUSE Israel is so good at playing the victim over the holocaust
- Time to wake up, they aren't a victim.
The intent is clear as day. I get you don't give a feck, and I've not even reported it because I know you don't, but it crosses a line in so many ways. It's anti semitic bile.