Transgender rights discussion

[jeff_goldblum]

@Pogue Mahone - one thing I'd say is that you're wrong when you say that stuff like access to shelters is irrelevant to the vast majority of trans women. Trans women are disproportionately victims of sexual assault and domestic abuse by men, so those arguments about shelters are understandably emotive and a big issue in the community, in the same way that funding for shelters is a big issue amongst women in general despite a minority of women using them.

In a climate where there is already a massive funding pressure on shelters (and therefore absolutely no chance of trans women getting funding for their own shelters) and no evidence that trans women pose a greater risk to cis women than other cis women do, the argument that trans women should be excluded from shelters is by no means a slam dunk.

Ultimately, if a trans woman wants to leave an abusive relationship but has no resources, or is seeking support after being assaulted, and she cannot access a women's refuge, what is she meant to do? The whole thing is made more frustrating by the fact that the main reason a cis woman might feel uncomfortable with sharing space with a trans women (although again we don't have evidence that they do) is precisely because of TERFs constantly painting them as predators. I don't know what the solution is which would make every cis woman feel safe whilst also supporting trans women, but it seems deeply wrong to me that trans women should be blocked from essential services precisely because they are discriminated against.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Ah the old 'drunken' excuse

the doors had these brass signs on them and the light reflecting off of it blinded me (my vision is one of the first things to suffer when I'm drunk). I'm just glad the stand up comedian didn't see me exit the ladies room. My mate's brother did, though, and was the one who informed me of the error. Without that, I'd have been completely oblivious to this day and telling people of the time I saw a men's room with no urinals.

 

[hobbers]

And trans Women can feel vulnerable in Male spaces... You're looking at well publised extremes. Each case should be judged on their own merits.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ner-tara-hudson-sexually-harassed-hmp-bristol

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....gender-woman-moved-from-mens-to-womens-prison

I agree with that as well. It has to go case by case.

As a for instance, I don't think any transgender woman convicted of a violent physical assault, and especially not sexual assault, should ever be going straight into female general population. And in these cases the degree that they've transitioned also probably does matter quite a bit.

 

[pierrethesnack]

of course she is. her essay was merely one transophic trope after another.

It's really not. It's well written and clearly not derogatory in any way. It's a false premise to claim that anyone who doesn't agree that biological sex is irrelevant for whether you're a woman or not is transphobic.

 

[sullydnl]

Wait, is the consensus here on this thread actually that Rowling is transphobic and bigoted?

Well between her tweets and her blog post it's apparent even to me (someone with only surface knowledge of this topic) that she misrepresented the argument transpeople are making, used that misrepresentation to imply they were preventing sexual violence against women from being discussed, supported her argument by saying at least some things that I already know to be straight up untrue and did so while making sure to point out that she had done a lot of research into the subject (which you would have thought would stop her from making such basic false claims were she not already heavily entrenched in a given position).

On top of that, other people with more knowledge on this subject have pointed to other untruths, misrepresentations and tropes within her post that I have no reason to doubt are there given they align with the problems in her argument that I can already see.

You can put whatever label you want on that but it certainly isn't good. Regardless of your position in any argument, you should be able to recognise when someone is saying things that are untrue or mischaracterising the other side's position.

 

[mu4c_20le]

It's really not. It's well written and clearly not derogatory in any way. It's a false premise to claim that anyone who doesn't agree that biological sex is irrelevant for whether you're a woman or not is transphobic.

I've seen this exact phrase used countless times in her defence in the comments. Of course it's well written, she's an award-winning, best selling author.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

@Pogue Mahone - one thing I'd say is that you're wrong when you say that stuff like access to shelters is irrelevant to the vast majority of trans women. Trans women are disproportionately victims of sexual assault and domestic abuse by men, so those arguments about shelters are understandably emotive and a big issue in the community, in the same way that funding for shelters is a big issue amongst women in general despite a minority of women using them.

In a climate where there is already a massive funding pressure on shelters (and therefore absolutely no chance of trans women getting funding for their own shelters) and no evidence that trans women pose a greater risk to cis women than other cis women do, the argument that trans women should be excluded from shelters is by no means a slam dunk.

Ultimately, if a trans woman wants to leave an abusive relationship but has no resources, or is seeking support after being assaulted, and she cannot access a women's refuge, what is she meant to do? The whole thing is made more frustrating by the fact that the main reason a cis woman might feel uncomfortable with sharing space with a trans women (although again we don't have evidence that they do) is precisely because of TERFs constantly painting them as predators. I don't know what the solution is which would make every cis woman feel safe whilst also supporting trans women, but it seems deeply wrong to me that trans women should be blocked from essential services precisely because they are discriminated against.

Fair point. I would imagine that the majority of trans woman would never need a shelter but a significant minority might. And that’s where we need a case by case approach. Or perhaps - if the numbers really are very large - we should be thinking about specific shelters for trans women?

I just don’t think it’s helpful to deny the potential trauma of asking women who have been abused by men to share a supposed safe space with biological males. Especially when gender is defined by self ID and non-binary or gender fluid people are in the mix (although we obviously need to think about appropriate safe spaces for them too!).

 

[amolbhatia50k]

It's really not. It's well written and clearly not derogatory in any way. It's a false premise to claim that anyone who doesn't agree that biological sex is irrelevant for whether you're a woman or not is transphobic.

Yeah in that piece she doesn't come across as this heinous villain some are portraying her as. Her explainations seem to stem from a difference in belief as opposed to hatred. And I think tons of people would agree with her stance. It isn't anywhere near as cut and dry as would appear from this thread

 

[Rudie]

the doors had these brass signs on them and the light reflecting off of it blinded me (my vision is one of the first things to suffer when I'm drunk). I'm just glad the stand up comedian didn't see me exit the ladies room. My mate's brother did, though, and was the one who informed me of the error. Without that, I'd have been completely oblivious to this day and telling people of the time I saw a men's room with no urinals.

Maybe that's the answer, brass signs which blind people into using whichever they get drawn towards.

If these Women only knew the number of guys in the ladies on nights out (mostly gay) they'd perhaps see the futility of policing it.

I've seen this exact phrase used countless times in her defence in the comments. Of course it's well written, she's an award-winning, best selling author.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

As far as I can see, the very point of her initial tweet was questioning why something used the term 'person', when it's clear that the reason it was used was for inclusion purposes. So she can't claim to hold those views while making comments like she did.

I can many people finding "people who wank" used instead of men slightly odd. Could she have respected the sentiments of others? Sure. But as far as I can see this is a difference in opinion rather than a sinister hatred from her end. Maybe she has a beef with aggressive trans but that's a separate matter. None of that makes her hateful towards a person because of them being transgender.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Maybe that's the answer, brass signs which blind people into using whichever they get drawn towards.

If these Women only knew the number of guys in the ladies on nights out (mostly gay) they'd perhaps see the futility of policing it.

Hey, it goes both ways. At one of my old workplaces, I was using the stall and a woman came in, went to the stall next to me, peed and left. I suppose she could have been trans.

 

[pierrethesnack]

I've seen this exact phrase used countless times in her defence in the comments. Of course it's well written, she's an award-winning, best selling author.

I agree it's not relevant in itself, only as a reply to the accusation that it's full of "tropes".

 

[Rudie]

Hey, it goes both ways. At one of my old workplaces, I was using the stall and a woman came in, went to the stall next to me, peed and left. I suppose she could have been trans.

The last time I used the mens was at work, the guy walked in and took one look at me, a phased quizzical expression dawned on his face, he quickly backtracked to take a look at the sign on the outside. "Yeah it's the men's, don't worry" I said reassuringly. I've never used the men's since but it made me laugh

 

[horsechoker]

I used the women's toilets once by drunken accident. The sad part is that the absence of urinals didn't even phase me and I'd even been to the establishment before.

Did that too, the woman's toilet was just a single bog standard toilet. I'm pretty sure the mens was the same.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The last time I used the mens was at work, the guy walked in and took one look at me, a phased quizzical expression dawned on his face, he quickly backtracked to take a look at the sign on the outside. "Yeah it's the men's, don't worry" I said reassuringly. I've never used the men's since but it made me laugh

Did that too, the woman's toilet was just a single bog standard toilet. I'm pretty sure the mens was the same.

Yeah, mine was a multi-user facility. Surprisingly no women were in it when I entered, although there were one or two when I left.

 

[Rudie]

I just don’t think it’s helpful to deny the potential trauma of asking women who have been abused by men to share a supposed safe space with biological males. Especially when gender is defined by self ID and non-binary or gender fluid people are in the mix (although we obviously need to think about appropriate safe spaces for them too!).

I think this is fair, even as a trans woman which is one of the points I was shot down for by the activists. Even as someone with "passing privilege" I wouldn't want to place any undue hurt or pressure on someone who'd suffered abuse having been the victim of it myself. If that meant I'd have to go to a trans shelter separately then so be it.

The problem is neither side want to discuss these issues like adults. Twitter is partly to blame for that.

 

[Charlie Foley]

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Uh, that bit from the book is really weird, but reading that “parent” tweet about male pseudonyms, Wouldn’t a woman who felt she had to disguise/replace her name with a more masculine one be, on paper (no pun intended) at least an ideal candidate to discuss erasure of women? To suggest otherwise feels a bit like victim blaming. The problem arises subsequently from the fact that Rowling is weirdly hung up on trans people, but I think that’s a separate issue to the pseudonyms (but what do I know!!)

 

[Charlie Foley]

I've seen this exact phrase used countless times in her defence in the comments. Of course it's well written, she's an award-winning, best selling author.

 

[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

Uh, that bit from the book is really weird, but reading that “parent” tweet about male pseudonyms, Wouldn’t a woman who felt she had to disguise/replace her name with a more masculine one be, on paper (no pun intended) at least an ideal candidate to discuss erasure of women? To suggest otherwise feels a bit like victim blaming. The problem arises subsequently from the fact that Rowling is weirdly hung up on trans people, but I think that’s a separate issue to the pseudonyms (but what do I know!!)

Yeah I was just wanting to post the second Tweet, but Twitter automatically adds the first one too which is a bit annoying.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Personally, I'd treat people the way they want to be treated and want to be seen and feel. If a male has made he difficult decision to tradition to female, I'd respect that decision and refer to her as such. But at the same time, I don't begrudge who view biological sex to be of importance. Majority of the people I'd know would see a transgender woman as different to a woman, without them being nasty people who wish to cause harm. It's possible to have a different belief system. Maybe it'll be something that gets shaped with time, or maybe it isn't clear enough for there to be one view on. As long as we treat everybody regardless of gender, colour, religion etc with respect, the rest wouldn't matter.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I think this is fair, even as a trans woman which is one of the points I was shot down for by the activists. Even as someone with "passing privilege" I wouldn't want to place any undue hurt or pressure on someone who'd suffered abuse having been the victim of it myself. If that meant I'd have to go to a trans shelter separately then so be it.

The problem is neither side want to discuss these issues like adults. Twitter is partly to blame for that.

“Passing”! That’s the word I was looking for. Based on your selfies above, I can’t imagine you being in any way triggering to women who have been victims of sexual violence by men.

As you know, though, being trans is a broad church. And a heavyset, gruff voiced, hairy, apparently “male” presence could be quite traumatic in the same scenario. But now we’re talking about adjusting rules based on aesthetics, which seems crazy.

 

[crappycraperson]

A thread of everything wrong with Rowling's blog post.

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I thought this was a very good thread, mostly agreed with all of his rebuttals, not all though. @amolbhatia50k might be worth going through to understand some of transphobic tropes that J.K. Rowling indulged in.

Also saw that in the same convo -

Twitter really is the worst place to have any kind of meaningful discussion. I can see why such abuse would make Rowling grow even more defensive of her position. After all from her vantage point, the so called trans activists are openly abusing her by specific reference to dicks.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

such vitriol!

 

[Olly Gunnar Solskjær]

Just saw this post on another forum

 

[jojojo]

“Passing”! That’s the word I was looking for. Based on your selfies above, I can’t imagine you being in any way triggering to women who have been victims of sexual violence by men.

As you know, though, being trans is a broad church. And a heavyset, gruff voiced, hairy, apparently “male” presence could be quite traumatic in the same scenario. But now we’re talking about adjusting rules based on aesthetics, which seems crazy.

I guess that's the bit that worries me really. For those rare instances where it might matter (to anyone other than the woman herself and those she decides need to know) going case by case sounds fair, but it's also very intrusive and very painful. Another reason why those rare instances have to be made as rare as possible.

 

[Rudie]

“Passing”! That’s the word I was looking for. Based on your selfies above, I can’t imagine you being in any way triggering to women who have been victims of sexual violence by men.

As you know, though, being trans is a broad church. And a heavyset, gruff voiced, hairy, apparently “male” presence could be quite traumatic in the same scenario. But now we’re talking about adjusting rules based on aesthetics, which seems crazy.

I think I'd still be willing to go to a trans only centre if by the mere possibility of my presence causing more pain. This viewpoint lands me to being called truscum and worse by the trans activists, they've threatened me with violence - someone who has experienced firsthand a physical attack in which I lost teeth and broke my jaw. Regardless, I still don't think that it's transphobic to acknowledge that biological differences are the reason why historically and currently Women have been marginalised and repressed.

Aesthetics is what a lot of this debate is coming down to unfortunately, there have been instances of masculine Women being hounded out of toilets for being mistaken for trans. I don't think any of the current debate helps anyone involved and I do think Rowling is fanning the flames rather than using her platform to quell the waters.

 

[Charlie Foley]

Yeah I was just wanting to post the second Tweet, but Twitter automatically adds the first one too which is a bit annoying.

Of course, sorry if I suggested you were agreeing with the first one too, wasn’t my intention! Just thought it was an odd tweet. Frustrating when someone you see on the same side of a particular debate as you says something silly like that.

 

[rcoobc]

The definition has expanded to become more inclusive, language evolves. Quite simply what do you see? Do you really think I should be using the Men's toilets? I think that'd confuse a whole lot of people personally. I mean, I'd find it pretty funny but I'd be putting myself in danger for several reasons, for example, if people thought I was skipping the queues for the ladies. I've spoken about biology here https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/post-25133563

Binary people talking about what non-binary people should and shouldn't do, is exactly the same as men talking about what women should and shouldn't do.

We should all shut up and listen.

it's good to hear from someone who actually has some relevant experience .

 

[Rudie]

Binary people talking about what non-binary people should and shouldn't do, is exactly the same as men talking about what women should and shouldn't do.

We should all shut up and listen.

it's good to hear from someone who actually has some relevant experience .

Thank you

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I thought this was a very good thread, mostly agreed with all of his rebuttals, not all though. @amolbhatia50k might be worth going through to understand some of transphobic tropes that J.K. Rowling indulged in.

Also saw that in the same convo -

Twitter really is the worst place to have any kind of meaningful discussion. I can see why such abuse would make Rowling grow even more defensive of her position. After all from her vantage point, the so called trans activists are openly abusing her by specific reference to dicks.

That’s why you can’t get involved in that debate online without thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is basically evil. You’ve got all those creeps on one team and Graham Linehan on the other.

 

[2cents]

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[Rudie]

The Sun is disgusting, her ex is vile. I don't believe what she said earned this or the bile of abuse she received from the trans extremists, it fuels her hate.

A never ending circle of hate feeding hate, a perfect facsimile of the uroboros if ever there was one. Stop the bus, I want to get off.

 

[Wibble]

I've stated where I stand on the pronouns debate in a previous thread and I suggest you read it as your understanding of trans people from a teacher's perspective is worrying and is clearly cherry picked from Twitter extremists. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/transgender.452657/

Secondly, if it was as easy as "why don't you just live your lives as Women and stop complaining" it would be a non issue, for trans people the journey is very personal and they'd love nothing more than to just be left to get on with it. But when something as simple as going to the toilet is questioned then it becomes an issue. https://womansplaceuk.org/toilets/
Have you ever been to an event? Out for the evening? Gone somewhere on holiday and needed the toilet? Of course you have.

Try this for me, next time you do try not using any public restrooms, this means your only toilet is that you use at home. If you've ever come close to wetting yourself over something so trivial then you'd understand the plight many trans Women have. To be within inches of degrading yourself in front of friends, loved ones. To be in floods of tears because you're bent over double trying to keep it in. Is that living a life of normality to you?

And don't even get me started on going without food because the dysphoria prohibits you from ever leaving your house. No quick trips to the supermarket. You'd rather starve than face reality. Try that one too, going without food for a good week, seeing what scraps you can scavenge.

Better yet, stick a dress on and go out, see what sort of looks and comments you get. Until you've done all of these then you know nothing of what it's like to be a trans Woman and have no place to tell them to just "live with it, because the gays did" a statement which also shows a worrying lack of understanding of the whole LGBTQ community as a whole.

And in practical terms what is the problem with things like unisex toilets. Everywhere I went in California there were unisex toilets and the number of times either my wife or I felt in any way awkward was zero.

 

[sullydnl]

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Well he sounds pleasant. Yikes.

 

[Rudie]

And in practical terms what is the problem with things like unisex toilets. Everywhere I went in California there were unisex toilets and the number of times either my wife or I felt in any way awkward was zero.

Unfortunately here it's a sticking point with the rad fems who Rowling supports, under the equality act they're entitled to sex segregated toilets and spaces and will try to enforce it. What they want though is not enforceable but like always with this debate there's no give by either side.

https://womansplaceuk.org/gender-neutral-toilets-dont-work-for-women-2/

 

[jojojo]

Unfortunately here it's a sticking point with the rad fems who Rowling supports, under the equality act they're entitled to sex segregated toilets and spaces and will try to enforce it. What they want though is not enforceable but like always with this debate there's no give by either side.

https://womansplaceuk.org/gender-neutral-toilets-dont-work-for-women-2/

That article has the usual problem of taking a valid design/expenditure issue, and twisting it around to be about trans-women, and inviting male predators into deserted loos (as if any male predator was waiting for a label on the door to change.)

The basic argument is accurate - women in general have more reasons to go and need more time in the loo than men and yet their loos generally handle fewer people simultaneously. Privacy is also a more complex issue when things like sanitary provision and religion are in the picture. Those are good reasons for better public provision and better design - not for sidetracking the issue into keeping people out.

 

[buchansleftleg]

The Sun is disgusting, her ex is vile. I don't believe what she said earned this or the bile of abuse she received from the trans extremists, it fuels her hate.

A never ending circle of hate feeding hate, a perfect facsimile of the uroboros if ever there was one. Stop the bus, I want to get off.

This headline is just appalling in light of the abuse flying around on this issue. Don't despair Rudie - you have been a voice of balance on this issue when others just seem to be dogmatic.

 

[SteveJ]

That Sun headline is essentially saying that women who speak - on *any* subject - should be beaten.

 

[Hammerfell]

Can we all at least agree that Graham Linehan is a massive bell?

 

[DFreshKing]

We are still no clearer on what the definition of woman should be but this thread is interesting for decent debate and information so there is that. Im against the vitriol no matter the topic so I find the abuse Rowling has got for trying to lay out her position offensive in any case but there will always be outliers - it should not be used to condemn either viewpoint.