January 29 US Army helicopter / American Airlines Crash in DC | Medical plane crash in Philly

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying there.

The computer system isn't giving them the normal amount of info it would give them when they are descending below 1000ft into their landing because it's designed not to in order to decrease their distractions from the landing procedures and tower instructions that they're needing to follow.
Yes, it's not giving them an RA. It is still giving them a TA, visually and auditory ("Traffic, Traffic", as is audible on the voice recorder according to the NTSB briefing) and showing the threat in their PFD and MFD. Hence why your statement that the system stops giving them "verbal feedback" as that would be inhibited is inaccurate, as only some of the messages are inhibited, specifically the "Climb, Climb/Descend, Descend", "Increase Climb/Descent" that they'd be getting as a follow-up to that initial warning. As shows the manual you quote above: "As previously stated, when in SL2, RAs are inhibited and only TAs will be issued."
(PS: The link is buggered).
How do you know they disregarded it? Has the NTSB released that information?
Which part of what a "guess" is do you not understand? I did not claim to know that they disregarded it. As to why I think they might have disregarded it, that's pretty simple: Have they shown a reaction in any way? No? The incoming threat would be visible on either PFDs and MFDs, and eighteen seconds is more than enough to initiate a course change in reaction to what they see on their displays. Shows to me that they disregarded it, did not register it, or did not show it the appropriate urgency in checking. Once the CVR is fully analysed and the findings published we'll probably know which one it was.
Regarding the above, as I said earlier in the thread, my uncle is one of the people on the investigation team for American Airlines. He actually helped train the crew that died. So what I'm posting to you in my posts is stuff from conversations I'm having with him.
Not sure what you are referring to since nothing in the quote was related to you?
 
Not sure what you are referring to since nothing in the quote was related to you?
Just in general, as we’d been conversing about it. I didn’t want you thinking I was just trying to be argumentative or anything like that with you or pulling things out of my ass about the event. I’m trying to relay info about questions that are coming up in the thread, so I can ask about that pitch up if you want since I’m sure they’ll have modeled that into the flight sim reconstruction they’re doing by now.
 
Just in general, as we’d been conversing about it. I didn’t want you thinking I was just trying to argue with you or pulling things out of my ass about the event. I’m trying to relay info about questions that are coming up in the thread, so I can ask about that pitch up if you want since I’m sure they’ll have modeled that into the flight sim reconstruction they’re doing by now.
Ah ok, gotcha!
Thank you for your efforts, and for telling us about your uncle's thoughts and findings on the matter. Can you thank him, just in general, too? The NTSB is doing an outstanding job, has been for a long time, too. It's a shame they don't actually get to order anything, and can only make suggestions to the FAA, which those then promptly ignore half the time.
 
Yes, it's not giving them an RA. It is still giving them a TA, visually and auditory ("Traffic, Traffic", as is audible on the voice recorder according to the NTSB briefing) and showing the threat in their PFD and MFD. Hence why your statement that the system stops giving them "verbal feedback" as that would be inhibited is inaccurate, as only some of the messages are inhibited, specifically the "Climb, Climb/Descend, Descend", "Increase Climb/Descent" that they'd be getting as a follow-up to that initial warning. As shows the manual you quote above: "As previously stated, when in SL2, RAs are inhibited and only TAs will be issued."
(PS: The link is buggered).

Which part of what a "guess" is do you not understand? I did not claim to know that they disregarded it. As to why I think they might have disregarded it, that's pretty simple: Have they shown a reaction in any way? No? The incoming threat would be visible on either PFDs and MFDs, and eighteen seconds is more than enough to initiate a course change in reaction to what they see on their displays. Shows to me that they disregarded it, did not register it, or did not show it the appropriate urgency in checking. Once the CVR is fully analysed and the findings published we'll probably know which one it was.

Not sure what you are referring to since nothing in the quote was related to you?
"I guess", "my thoughts", "I think." It's all the same.

But, why are you guessing is my point? We've already had a president use DEI as a way to diminish the safety standards of the helicopter crew and it's operation. It's completely unfair. It starts rumours and creates unnecessary consequences. Not to mention it creates extra work for the people fully entrenched in this accident who are trying to piece together what happened.

Like I said earlier, you did a great job presenting the facts from the NTSB. All the system info you've presented has been good reading and a nice way to understand how they work and how crews use them. Why can't you just leave it at that?
 
Ah ok, gotcha!
Thank you for your efforts, and for telling us about your uncle's thoughts and findings on the matter.
Yep, no problem. It’s not every day that you end up having someone you’re related to involved with something this high profile, so I figured I’d pass along the info he gave me as best I could.
Hence why your statement that the system stops giving them "verbal feedback" as that would be inhibited is inaccurate, as only some of the messages are inhibited, specifically the "Climb, Climb/Descend, Descend", "Increase Climb/Descent" that they'd be getting as a follow-up to that initial warning. As shows the manual you quote above: "As previously stated, when in SL2, RAs are inhibited and only TAs will be issued."
Yeah, that's on me being lazy and paraphrasing. I am indeed referencing the RAs there.
 
"I guess", "my thoughts", "I think." It's all the same.

But, why are you guessing is my point? We've already had a president use DEI as a way to diminish the safety standards of the helicopter crew and it's operation. It's completely unfair. It starts rumours and creates unnecessary consequences. Not to mention it creates extra work for the people fully entrenched in this accident who are trying to piece together what happened.

Like I said earlier, you did a great job presenting the facts from the NTSB. All the system info you've presented has been good reading and a nice way to understand how they work and how crews use them. Why can't you just leave it at that?
Yes, exactly, those words all clearly show that what's said is a speculation, not a factual statement. That's why I'm confused about your claim that I made an assertion when I clearly did not.

As to why I am guessing? Why not? Again, I'm not a press agency, official, or any other source with a claim to credence, I'm just some plonker on the internet, I get to make guesses. And when I do, I word my sentences to show that I do so like I did above (unless I screw up). It's not the first time that I've taken a guess in this thread either, I've speculated as early as page one that the helicopter crew might have mistaken and tracked a different aircraft for the CRJ, so I definitely was not reporting pure facts until now. If you only want facts then I'm definitely not your guy.

It's not like that possibility I mentioned is just something I'm pulling out of thin air either, there's decently good indication for it, even if it's not good enough to be called proof in any way. I've explained why I consider it a likely possibility above. I'd like to call it an educated guess, but maybe even that's going to far. An educated possibility, maybe?

I certainly don't think it's the only factor either, that this would be only on the CRJ pilots, and neither did I ever indicate to think so.
The entire situation looks like total FUBAR. A highly active helicopter route with a ceiling that puts them only around a hundred feet below the final of a very active commercial airport is pure insanity! And that's even if everyone adheres to the route perfectly - I've read multiple people claiming to be familiar with the airspace saying that military helicopters buzzing that ceiling and being told off by ATC is a regular occurence. The ATC relying on visual separation by the heli crew rather than telling the helicopter where to hold until the incoming aircraft has passed and they're cleared to continue is apparently the regular procedure there from what I read, which I'd also regard as too error-prone, at least at night where making out an aircraft light above a bright city and correctly estimating its distance and relative speed is quite hard. And while we're at it, something certainly also went wrong on the side of the helo pilots, as they just crossed into the final to runway 33 without waiting for the CRJ to pass in front of them. They knew that the plane was inbound for 33, there was no other aircraft landing on that runway that they could have mistaken the actual accident CRJ for which could have made them think that it had already passed, yet they continued on without so much as asking ATC. It looks like they were too high on their route as well. Circle-to-land for a regularly used runway is an imprecise approach that has no place over the city center of the nation's capital, at least give it a proper RNP approach if not an ILS one. And after all of those issues, yes, I also think the CRJ's reaction to a traffic warning appears to be lacking.

So as you can see, I consider a lot of issues being at play here. Classic swiss cheese model, a lot of things have to line up for this to happen. From the FAA who set the route and approach as are, to the ATC leaving imho too much to personal responsibility of the pilots, to the military seemingly habitually not taking the altitude restrictions seriously enough, to the helicopter pilots doing whatever they did to not correctly pick up and wait for the CRJ, to the CRJ crew's lack of timely reaction to TCAS - I consider all of them a factor in this, and out of all of them, I'd blame the CRJ crew by far the least even if it should turn out that they entirely overlooked or disregarded the TCAS warning.

Yep, no problem. It’s not every day that you end up having someone you’re related to involved with something this high profile, so I figured I’d pass along the info he gave me as best I could.
Added an edit above which I don't think you saw: "Can you thank him, just in general, too? The NTSB is doing an outstanding job, has been for a long time, too. It's a shame they don't actually get to order anything, and can only make suggestions to the FAA, which those then promptly ignore half the time."
 
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Added an edit above which I don't think you saw: "Can you thank him, just in general, too? The NTSB is doing an outstanding job, has been for a long time, too. It's a shame they don't actually get to order anything, and can only make suggestions to the FAA, which those then promptly ignore half the time."
Will do!
 
I'm not gonna say anything about Cheeto Hitler's ramblings. I'm just gonna get all sad and angry early in the morning on a Friday, and I don't want that.

Looks like the US already have their next larger aviation incident: https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/2025/02/07/report-possible-plane-with-10-onboard-down-near-nome/
A Cessna Grand Caravan flying for Bering Air with 10 souls aboard is hours overdue for its short hop from Unalakleet to Nome, Alaska. Search and rescue is underway but hampered by adverse weather conditions.
ADS-B transmissions last reported the aircraft at 5300ft, descending, over the water:
POQsBtl.jpeg
 
Looks like I have some minor fame or notoriety of sorts

The Wikipedia entry about this crash has used one of my photographs of the PSA CRJ that I took at Charlotte!
 
At least one person died when a business jet smashed into another plane after landing at a US airport Monday, authorities said, the latest in a string of deadly aviation accidents in the United States.

One person remained trapped inside one of the planes at Scottsdale Airport in Arizona, with three others taken to hospital.

Pictures from the scene showed a jet appeared to have slammed into the back of a larger plane, with emergency vehicles on hand.

“A Learjet 35A veered off the runway after landing and crashed into a Gulfstream 200 business jet on the ramp at Scottsdale Municipal Airport in Arizona,” a spokesperson for the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) said.
 
At least one person died when a business jet smashed into another plane after landing at a US airport Monday, authorities said, the latest in a string of deadly aviation accidents in the United States.

One person remained trapped inside one of the planes at Scottsdale Airport in Arizona, with three others taken to hospital.

Pictures from the scene showed a jet appeared to have slammed into the back of a larger plane, with emergency vehicles on hand.

“A Learjet 35A veered off the runway after landing and crashed into a Gulfstream 200 business jet on the ramp at Scottsdale Municipal Airport in Arizona,” a spokesperson for the Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) said.



Neil's girlfriend was on board and luckily survived.
 
Have these incidents always been this common and there’s just a lens on it now and it’s being reported, or is this just a period where a lot of this is happening?
 
Have these incidents always been this common and there’s just a lens on it now and it’s being reported, or is this just a period where a lot of this is happening?
They're not uncommon, they are just highlighted more when a high-profile crash has happened
 
Yikes, another Learjet. Hopefully they ll conclude investigations into this and the Philly one soon because perhaps its time to ground the aging former King of the corporate jet world.
 
Yikes, another Learjet. Hopefully they ll conclude investigations into this and the Philly one soon because perhaps its time to ground the aging former King of the corporate jet world.
There's a heck of a difference between falling out of the sky and veering off a runway, the latter could be something as simple as a burst tire - age doesn't necessarily past it
 
There's a heck of a difference between falling out of the sky and veering off a runway, the latter could be something as simple as a burst tire - age doesn't necessarily past it
True. But it could indicate a larger issue with the age of the aircraft in general catching up on multiple fronts.
 
Have these incidents always been this common and there’s just a lens on it now and it’s being reported, or is this just a period where a lot of this is happening?
Depends what you are talking about. Large deadly commercial aviation incidents have become pretty rare. The recent burst of them between the aircraft the Russians shot down, the crash in South Korea and the Washington DC event is certainly uncharacteristic. Even for Bering Air who operated the small Cessna that crashed with 10 aboard in Alaska this was their very first deadly mishap despite their long time operating in very averse conditions. So that is certainly not typical.

For general aviation however, a certain amount of losses per year is sadly very normal. For example, here's a graph:
1050px-Air_Transport_Safety_Visual_2024.png
 
True. But it could indicate a larger issue with the age of the aircraft in general catching up on multiple fronts.

Maybe? I mean, we still have airplanes that fly around from the 30's and 40's. Not to mention primary flight training taking place in 1960's Cessna's and Pipers. I know they're not jets but, age isn't really relevant provided the upkeep has been taking care of.
 
Maybe? I mean, we still have airplanes that fly around from the 30's and 40's. Not to mention primary flight training taking place in 1960's Cessna's and Pipers. I know they're not jets but, age isn't really relevant provided the upkeep has been taking care of.
Jets - the B-52, U2 and KC-135's of the US airforce have been around a while - indeed the expectation is that the former will be around 100 years old before they are all finally retired!
 
Jets - the B-52, U2 and KC-135's of the US airforce have been around a while - indeed the expectation is that the former will be around 100 years old before they are all finally retired!
Man, how could I forget the B-52? Truly impeccable machine.
 
Today's NTSB briefing offered some interesting info about what they have been able to determine from the recordings so far.
You can either watch the Youtube recording:

Or read the transcript here: https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/Feb.14.2025_Briefing_Mid-air_Collision near DCA.pdf

Some bullet points that I found particularly interesting:
- The Black Hawk crew were most likely wearing their night vision gear throughout the whole flight.
- The Black Hawk was at 300ft at Memorial Bridge, the flight instructor and pilot monitoring (PM) told the pilot flying (PF) that they needed to descend, the PF confirmed that they were descending to 200ft.
- There was a moment of altitude discrepancy before that point where the PM called out their altitude as 400ft, while the PF said they were at 300ft. Whether that means that their instruments were reading different values has yet to be determined.
- The CRJ did receive an audible "Traffic, Traffic" warning from TCAS 19s prior to the collision.
- The voice recorder of the Black Hawk does lack two important pieces of radio calls from ATC (air traffic control): the part information that the CRJ was specifically "circling" to land on RWY33 was missing, and the message ordering them to pass behind the CRJ might have not been received properly, as the transmission was stepped on at the "pass behind the"-part by the helicopter crew pressing their own transmission key.
- The PM said that he believed that the ATC wanted them to move closer to the eastern bank of the river to the left of their course.
- The last recorded altitude on the radar altimeter of the Blackhawk was 278ft, and had been stable at that value for the last five seconds prior to the collision. Their attitude was 0.5° nose up, and 1.6° bank to the left. The NTSB emphasizes that the radar altitude might have been different from what the crew could have been seeing on their barometric altitude indicators.
- The last recorded values one second prior to impact for the CRJ was 11° bank to the left, 9° nose up with their elevators at near maximum nose-up deflection, yet still descending at 448ft/min. Their last recorded radar altitude two seconds prior to impact was 313ft.
- NTSB are seeing conflicting information in the data, which is why they aren't yet releasing more altitude information about the Black Hawk's route.

Two points of information are missing in the briefing that I would have found very interesting to hear more about:
1) Any communication amongst the helicopter crew that would indicate them actually visually tracking the CRJ, that might indicate if they really saw it, and if they were looking at the correct aircraft.
2) Any communication amongst the CRJ crew about the traffic alert from TCAS and possible necessary evasive actions.
 
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The last recorded values one second prior to impact for the CRJ was 11° bank to the left, 9° nose up with their elevators at near maximum nose-up deflection, yet still descending at 448ft/min.
Would be curious to know where the throttle quadrent was in relation to engine power as well.
 
Would be curious to know where the throttle quadrent was in relation to engine power as well.
Given that the nose angle only seems to rise like that in the last one or two seconds according to the briefing, I don't think the engines had any time to spool up even if the pilots simultaneously put them into TOGA.
 

Someone's getting fired here, either the crew of the private jet or the controller because one of them has serioulsly fecked up big time here, kudos to the Southwest crew and I'm personally glad I'm not on the clean-up crew!
 
Someone's getting fired here, either the crew of the private jet or the controller because one of them has serioulsly fecked up big time here, kudos to the Southwest crew and I'm personally glad I'm not on the clean-up crew!
The US really needs to step up investing in more advanced ground movement technology like some of the European airports have. Between the overcrowding of airports like O Hare, less aerial spacing and outdated technology the volume of near misses is horrendous. As with so many things in this country- we are good at being the first one to do something many times, but then don't maintain and update it.
 
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The US really needs to step up investing in more advanced ground movement technology like some of the European airports have. Between the overcrowding of airports like O Hare, less aerial spacing and outdated technology the volume of near misses is horrendous. As with so many things in this country- we are good at being the first one to do something many times, but then don't maintain and update it.
Midway has ASDE-X which as far as I know is considered to be pretty good, it's also a pretty small airport in terms of area, with decent visibility, as is the case here, something like this is almost always going to be someone's feck up rather than equipment related
 


pretty clear mistake by the private jet. confused when hearing the instructions, and totally ignored them when crossing.
 


pretty clear mistake by the private jet. confused when hearing the instructions, and totally ignored them when crossing.

Wonder how many more seconds the pilot of the southwest plane actually had to make that call. Seems like no more than maybe a few seconds to prevent disaster based on the angle we re seeing in the video.
 
Wonder how many more seconds the pilot of the southwest plane actually had to make that call. Seems like no more than maybe a few seconds to prevent disaster based on the angle we re seeing in the video.
Given the spool up time for the 737's engines I'm guessing the pilots spotted the private jet and thought he's not stopping 3-4 seconds before it started crossing
 
VASaviation is always a good channel to go to for getting a grasp on the ATC side of things. They're extremely quick in uploading all sorts of incidents and are doing an amazing job to match things to map illustrations.