Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Shamwow]

Cracked me up.

If Corbyn ever became significant to the Tories, Murdoch could sink him forever in a week.

Supposing it's true, are we okay with that?

 

[Ubik]

She does have the advantage, of course, of never having appeared to public praise terrorist organisations (to my knowledge, at least).

I'm sure the Tories (and their press) will be nice come election time and forget Jeremy (and his chief of strategy and comms) did this. I'm also sure they won't tie this directly to John McDonnell's statements on the IRA. Nope, that would be well beneath them.

 

[endless_wheelies]

Aye the tories must be relieved they won't have to face the strength of the mighty Angela Eagle.

True, I would hope she was just a "best at short notice" option though.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Supposing it's true, are we okay with that?

It is irrelevant. Those are the conditions any party that is going to beat the Tories will have to operate in.

McDonell have given enough anumition in the past year for Murdoch to get the job done. Let alone digging into Corbyn's past.

 

[Smores]

True, I would hope she was just a "best at short notice" option though.

Sounds just like the Leave voters, commiting to radical action without developing a plan of action and downplaying negative impacts. All these members coming over here and taking over our party.

"Make Labour New Again"

 

[Red Dreams]

hmmm. Hamas are the elected representatives of the Palestinians in Gaza. Heck I suppose we can call all the Palestinians there terrorists then. Just like Iranians call America terrorists...blah blah.

ahh well.

 

[Red Dreams]

Sounds just like the Leave voters, commiting to radical action without developing a plan of action and downplaying negative impacts. All these members coming over here and taking over our party.

"Make Labour New Again"

"Make Labour Tory lite "


we'll just starve you twice a week.

 

[Shamwow]

It is irrelevant. Those are the conditions any party that is going to beat the Tories will have to operate in.

McDonell have given enough anumition in the past year for Murdoch to get the job done. Let alone digging into Corbyn's past.

Which politicians wouldn't provide Murdoch enough anumition and should we be limiting ourselves to them?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Which politicians wouldn't provide Murdoch enough anumition and should we be limiting ourselves to them?

I would say that Corbyn is pretty much the worst that Labour could go for on that count.

He ticks all the wrong boxes for readers of The Sun and Daily Mail.

 

[Ubik]

hmmm. Hamas are the elected representatives of the Palestinians in Gaza. Heck I suppose we can call all the Palestinians there terrorists then. Just like Iranians call America terrorists...blah blah.

ahh well.

The killing of jews is explicitly encouraged in their covenant.

Again, the Tories won't bring any of this up so it'll all be totally fine.

 

[endless_wheelies]

Sounds just like the Leave voters, commiting to radical action without developing a plan of action and downplaying negative impacts. All these members coming over here and taking over our party.

"Make Labour New Again"

Don't really care about Labour tbh, all I know is the Conservatives are in charge of the biggest overhaul of our legal and economic framework in history and we need a strong Labour to keep them honest, maybe even challenge the overhaul itself.

Under Corbyn Labour is an irrelevance.

 

[Red Dreams]

The killing of jews is explicitly encouraged in their covenant.

Again, the Tories won't bring any of this up so it'll all be totally fine.

Most of these Middle Eastern countries see the Jews and the United States as evil. So what.

You Can live with your enemies. To put up these mental blocks is what brings about more bloodshed.

 

[Ubik]

Most of these Middle Eastern countries see the Jews and the United States as evil. So what.

You Can live with your enemies. To put up these mental blocks is what brings about more bloodshed.

I'm not commenting one way or the other on the morality of it here, I'm saying he's going to get eviscerated in a general election campaign. This is but one example. And that's before taking into consideration that he's already the least liked leader of the opposition since Foot.

 

[Red Dreams]

I'm not commenting one way or the other on the morality of it here, I'm saying he's going to get eviscerated in a general election campaign. This is but one example. And that's before taking into consideration that he's already the least liked leader of the opposition since Foot.

Corbyn is not aggressive or effective. But he has a couple of qualities that every other Labour leader lacks. Decency and Courage. I will vote for 'Corbyn' every time.

As for the Torries. Cameron had the nerve to say to Corbyn "For Heaven's sake just go"

Corbyn should have asked Cameron. "Why did you not hang yourself? Why are you still alive?"

 

[Ubik]

Corbyn is not aggressive or effective. But he has a couple of qualities that every other Labour leader lacks. Decency and Courage. I will vote for 'Corbyn' every time.

As for the Torries. Cameron had the nerve to say to Corbyn "For Heaven's sake just go"

Corbyn should have asked Cameron. "Why did you not hang yourself? Why are you still alive?"

Would've gone down well on the six o'clock news.

 

[Red Dreams]

Would've gone down well on the six o'clock news.

it would have gone down well with Labour voters.

end off.

 

[Cheesy]

You are correct, Labour as a whole has reached a state of critical incompetence. That's clear in Scotland, it would be clear in Wales if there was any opposition worthy of the name, and it's clear in Westminster. The PLP is dismissive of the membership, and the membership is dismissive of the public. The NEC is now studied using a kind of Kremlinology, tallying up which members are pro-Corbyn and which are anti-, and that's the stage where it's likely to be decided whether Corbyn is or isn't on a leadership ballot. None of it works, and hasn't been working for many years now, but it continues to lumber on partly because of the romanticism of past achievements, partly because of the stark electoral reality that it would face if starting afresh.

Think we better get used to the idea of a fair few years of May.

Pretty much. The party needs reform from top to bottom: problem is, the vast majority of the party seem interested only in their own agendas, with the blind belief that replacing one figure is going to fix a much, much deeper problem.

Looking back, Blair/Brown should've implemented PR. Naturally, they were never going to do it because it's easy to be short-sighted when you're strolling to majorities, but it'd have been the single best way to deny Tory majorities. I don't see how the current party can continue to function: the membership and the majority of the party just disagree too extremely.

 

[Cheesy]

It is irrelevant. Those are the conditions any party that is going to beat the Tories will have to operate in.

McDonell have given enough anumition in the past year for Murdoch to get the job done. Let alone digging into Corbyn's past.

Perhaps, although the Tories are always going to eventually find their way in after a few years if an opposition party is perfectly willing to abide by Tory ways and methods. Media spin etc is largely heaven for the Tories due to the dirty tactics they'll happily employ. To fight against that effectively requires a very, very strong Labour party, and an incredibly weak Tory one.

A strong Labour party with a viable leader just doesn't exist right now, and it simply isn't going to in the current state. Anyone who thinks it will is largely just as idealistic and wishful as any Corbyn supporter they'd accuse of being the same.

 

[Smores]

Looks like it was a Labour MP who was shouting down Corbyn during his measured response to the Chilcot report yesterday in the commons, Ian Austin MP for Dudley.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-iraq-war-after-publication-of-a7122871.html

Fecking disgrace. If you read his twitter the guy very quickly comes across as a complete idiot. This is the image the PLP are sending out to the world right now, anyone who thinks those associated to this coup will come out of it strongly is naive.

 

[lynchie]

it would have gone down well with Labour voters.

end off.

It would have gone down well with people who are happy for Labour to become nothing more than a protest movement, with the Conservatives in power in perpetuity.

Labour needs votes from people who are not strongly tied to either right or left. Corbyn's issue is that he seems to think he can do his job by only ever appealing to voters who already agree with him.

 

[Smores]

It would have gone down well with people who are happy for Labour to become nothing more than a protest movement, with the Conservatives in power in perpetuity.

Labour needs votes from people who are not strongly tied to either right or left. Corbyn's issue is that he seems to think he can do his job by only ever appealing to voters who already agree with him.

Apart from immigration which policies do you think he's out of touch on? I'm excluding trident as he's agreed to go with the parties position (i suppose that could change)

A lot of his polices have repeatedly polled quite well. I'd say it's the publics perception of him rather than his policies that is the issue.

 

[Drifter]

Looks like it was a Labour MP who was shouting down Corbyn during his measured response to the Chilcot report yesterday in the commons, Ian Austin MP for Dudley.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-iraq-war-after-publication-of-a7122871.html

Fecking disgrace. If you read his twitter the guy very quickly comes across as a complete idiot. This is the image the PLP are sending out to the world right now, anyone who thinks those associated to this coup will come out of it strongly is naive.

The sooner Corbyn gets rid of these parasites the better.

 

[lynchie]

Apart from immigration which policies do you think he's out of touch on? I'm excluding trident as he's agreed to go with the parties position (i suppose that could change)

A lot of his polices have repeatedly polled quite well. I'd say it's the publics perception of him rather than his policies that is the issue.

Public perception is quite important in a leader. I'd say on Trident and the EU, his inability to seem committed to the party's agreed policy comes across very poorly. Also, he's more and more made his public speeches to crowds of people from Momentum and the SWP. Even on the eve of the EU referendum, he was appearing outside a Waitrose in Islington. Those are votes he already has!!

 

[Raees]

My town has always been one for Labour. Huge numbers of people locally are signing up and paying the monthly subscription in support of Corbyn. I must have counted 20+ comment on my own Mum's facebook status about it saying they had joined.

This type of stuff shouldn't be taken for granted especially in light of the referendum when it seemed like alot of momentum was being generated by Brexiters and everyone was blindly ignoring it thinking fear would take hold and they would vote for the status quo come election.

I think Corbyn has a decent chance of winning the election tbh.. more than Ed Miliband did anyway.

 

[Mockney]

I don't think he'd win an election, but the coupers and their supporters have certainly grossly misread the public mood, and seem completely unable to grasp it.

Ironically, quite like Blair.

 

[Smores]

Public perception is quite important in a leader. I'd say on Trident and the EU, his inability to seem committed to the party's agreed policy comes across very poorly. Also, he's more and more made his public speeches to crowds of people from Momentum and the SWP. Even on the eve of the EU referendum, he was appearing outside a Waitrose in Islington. Those are votes he already has!!

Yeah I can agree with that. The campaign has been very focused on building a base but with an election likely to be round the corner he'll need to widen his audience.

I just don't think it's policy issue, a puppet leader like Jarvis with these policies would do well. If the party unites now behind Corbyn I think he'll be seen as stronger for it.
feck knows how you unite the party though. The bitterness of the progress branch has only increased. I do wonder whether they'd have done the same to Burnham eventually.

 

[lynchie]

Yeah I can agree with that. The campaign has been very focused on building a base but with an election likely to be round the corner he'll need to widen his audience.

I just don't think it's policy issue, a puppet leader like Jarvis with these policies would do well. If the party unites now behind Corbyn I think he'll be seen as stronger for it.
feck knows how you unite the party though. The bitterness of the progress branch has only increased. I do wonder whether they'd have done the same to Burnham eventually.

Burnham's a disaster. He's another one that doesn't really get the difference between being an effective campaigner on individual issues, and being a leader of a broad party. Hopefully, once he loses his mayoral bid, he'll go back to being a shadow minister, comfortable in a narrow policy area.

I think a different leader would do well if they made their leadership about the policy, rather than the more philosophical issues that seem to be Corbyn's focus - things like a "new kinder politics" are just setting up to be mocked, particularly when your main backers are the guys in Momentum. It would also be nice if there was a leader that could be a bit more emphatic about condemning the small pockets of anti-semitism that are reflecting so badly on the wider party.

I'm honestly not sure who the next leader should be. I do quite like Eagle, and think her performances in PMQs have been very good. Jarvis and Starmer could be good candidates, thanks to their backgrounds outside parliament, and I think they would understand the demands of leadership. The party will never "unite" fully. It's too broad for that. But if they can reduce the infighting so that we can go back to seeing the Tories as the party in disarray, they'd stand a better chance.

 

[Pexbo]

I don't think he'd win an election, but the coupers and their supporters have certainly grossly misread the public mood, and seem completely unable to grasp it.

Ironically, quite like Blair.

If he consolidates powers and, using the public support he has, drives the trouble makers out of his party to form New New Labour he has every chance of having a good shot in the next election. In a time when the far right is picking up support after a long spell of centrism I wouldn't be surprised to see the left start getting equally enthusiastic support from those in fear of a rise in right wing politics.

 

[Adisa]

Is the party being doomed not about how you perceive his electability?

I think the party ideologically is caught between a rock and a hard place.
Core Labour voters up north have become more nationalistic, isolationist and are moving to the extreme right on some issues and these people are moving to UKIP in droves.
Labour voters like me (millennials) and most of my generation, see the benefits of globalization, are staunch liberals etc.
I cannot wait for Labour to find where it wants to go.
Lib Dems ideologically is still very similar to my beliefs. Also, Tim Farron has an established policy of halting this Brexit process. Something Labour is never going to do.
As many Ld MPs in parliament as possible suits me.

 

[x42bn6]

If he consolidates powers and, using the public support he has, drives the trouble makers out of his party to form New New Labour he has every chance of having a good shot in the next election. In a time when the far right is picking up support after a long spell of centrism I wouldn't be surprised to see the left start getting equally enthusiastic support from those in fear of a rise in right wing politics.

With FPTP, neither Corbyn Labour (or indeed, UKIP) will get into power, though, as they would be niche parties. Both would be sidelined in favour of parties able to capture the centre, and at present, only the Conservatives (even if the nationalist faction defects to UKIP) can do that. So a split would guarantee a Conservative majority for many years to come.

I think Corbyn consolidating his party won't be enough. They simply aren't polling well enough to win. http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/category/voting-intention

I guess there's two sides to this - whether the ideological purity of Corbyn is better than actually winning the centre and getting elected. Ideological purity risks a Conservative government for many years to come - is that truly worth it?

 

[Shamwow]

With FPTP, neither Corbyn Labour (or indeed, UKIP) will get into power, though, as they would be niche parties. Both would be sidelined in favour of parties able to capture the centre, and at present, only the Conservatives (even if the nationalist faction defects to UKIP) can do that. So a split would guarantee a Conservative majority for many years to come.

I think Corbyn consolidating his party won't be enough. They simply aren't polling well enough to win. http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/category/voting-intention

I guess there's two sides to this - whether the ideological purity of Corbyn is better than actually winning the centre and getting elected. Ideological purity risks a Conservative government for many years to come - is that truly worth it?

All of this comes under the faulty assumption that Labour would be guaranteed to "win the centre" if only they tried. I think that is a losing strategy for Labour. "Tory-lite" doesn't just relate to ideology, it also relates to the fact that trying to beat the Tories at their own game is a losing strategy when there appears to be no one in the party with the vision, focus, and charisma of Blair or even Cameron for that matter.

It also assumes that Corbyn backers are only interested in ideological purity at the expense of winning. I have a different idea of how to win than just blindly following polls and focus groups.

 

[Ubik]

Worth reading from Labour's sole south-east MP. Think he has a decent idea of the public mood here.

http://us7.campaign-archive2.com/?u=d57858d2bdbc2ba256db60991&id=e7c09b4ae6&e=d4c7898469

 

[Red Dreams]

All of this comes under the faulty assumption that Labour would be guaranteed to "win the centre" if only they tried. I think that is a losing strategy for Labour. "Tory-lite" doesn't just relate to ideology, it also relates to the fact that trying to beat the Tories at their own game is a losing strategy when there appears to be no one in the party with the vision, focus, and charisma of Blair or even Cameron for that matter.

It also assumes that Corbyn backers are only interested in ideological purity at the expense of winning. I have a different idea of how to win than just blindly following polls and focus groups.

good post.

 

[sun_tzu]

Worth reading from Labour's sole south-east MP. Think he has a decent idea of the public mood here.

http://us7.campaign-archive2.com/?u=d57858d2bdbc2ba256db60991&id=e7c09b4ae6&e=d4c7898469

well said that chap... though inevitably momentum will try and get him de-selected now in the true spirit of a new kind of politics

 

[M18CTID]

Worth reading from Labour's sole south-east MP. Think he has a decent idea of the public mood here.

http://us7.campaign-archive2.com/?u=d57858d2bdbc2ba256db60991&id=e7c09b4ae6&e=d4c7898469

A very good read - he understands the need to engage with disaffected Labour voters and find out their concerns.

 

[lynchie]

All of this comes under the faulty assumption that Labour would be guaranteed to "win the centre" if only they tried. I think that is a losing strategy for Labour. "Tory-lite" doesn't just relate to ideology, it also relates to the fact that trying to beat the Tories at their own game is a losing strategy when there appears to be no one in the party with the vision, focus, and charisma of Blair or even Cameron for that matter.

It also assumes that Corbyn backers are only interested in ideological purity at the expense of winning. I have a different idea of how to win than just blindly following polls and focus groups.

On the contrary, it comes from the assumption, that has been played out over the last 40 years, that if Labour ignores the centre, they lose. I haven't seen any evidence that Corbyn and Momentum are interested in appealing to anyone that doesn't agree fully with their very narrow brand of politics. That's fine if you're the Green Party, shouting at the perimeter. It's not so fine when you're the official opposition.

 

[NinjaFletch]

On the contrary, it comes from the assumption, that has been played out over the last 40 years, that if Labour ignores the centre, they lose. I haven't seen any evidence that Corbyn and Momentum are interested in appealing to anyone that doesn't agree fully with their very narrow brand of politics. That's fine if you're the Green Party, shouting at the perimeter. It's not so fine when you're the official opposition.

Is it though? I'm not hugely convinced the electorate at the large cares about whether a party is far left, far right or in the centre.

Seems to me that the party that wins the election is the one with the slickest presentation, best handling of the media, and the perceived 'know what they're doing factor'.

I'd say Corbyn's failure to convince the electorate that he knows what he's doing (not helped by Labour politicians repeatedly telling the electorate that he doesn't know what he's doing) is a bigger issue than his politics.

Case in point, the electorate as a whole broadly like a right wing fascist in Nigel Farage because they think he 'tells it like it is' and 'gets them' despite the fact that he never ever actually gives a straight answer to anything he's asked and has campaigned for something that actively harms the electorate.

I think Blair won elections because he knew how to play the game, the shift to the centre helped for sure, but I don't see it as being a bigger factor than the fact he was able to manipulate the media far better than the Labour party have before or after him.

 

[Adisa]

Worth reading from Labour's sole south-east MP. Think he has a decent idea of the public mood here.

http://us7.campaign-archive2.com/?u=d57858d2bdbc2ba256db60991&id=e7c09b4ae6&e=d4c7898469

That has me fuming tbh. The party is fecked.

 

[Dobba]

Shame. Many more years of Conservatives doing whatever they please with that pointless hippy at the helm of the supposed opposition.

Get rid of Corbyn and bring back the great abstainers with Jamie Reed as leader. They'll keep the Tories in their place.

 

[lynchie]

Is it though? I'm not hugely convinced the electorate at the large cares about whether a party is far left, far right or in the centre.

Seems to me that the party that wins the election is the one with the slickest presentation, best handling of the media, and the perceived 'know what they're doing factor'.

I'd say Corbyn's failure to convince the electorate that he knows what he's doing (not helped by Labour politicians repeatedly telling the electorate that he doesn't know what he's doing) is a bigger issue than his politics.

Case in point, the electorate as a whole broadly like a right wing fascist in Nigel Farage because they think he 'tells it like it is' and 'gets them' despite the fact that he never ever actually gives a straight answer to anything he's asked and has campaigned for something that actively harms the electorate.

I think Blair won elections because he knew how to play the game, the shift to the centre helped for sure, but I don't see it as being a bigger factor than the fact he was able to manipulate the media far better than the Labour party have before or after him.

Farage only appears popular because he has vocal supporters. He's never won a constituency in many attempts. The EU Ref was won by Boris. Blair's great success was holding the centre while the tories elected a bunch of inward looking right wingers like IDS and Howard.

Cameron realised that, and so went for the centre with his "compassionate conservatism" bullshit, and it worked, helped in large part by a global financial meltdown.

Labour now have their version of Howard as leader. It'll be weird to see what happens if Leadsom becomes leader. No one holding the centre. Maybe Tim Farron will have a surge, if he can find a personality.