Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[sun_tzu]

So why did Shami Chakravarti (no Corbynite), Jan Royall, and David Feldman report " "no evidence" of systemic antisemitism in Labour"?

Do you believe the commission would say this without ecidence?

I think as the equalities commission are the leading body in this under UK law I'd be inclined to say they should be taken pretty seriously.... Let's not forget they have taken legal action against a political party before (the BNP)

Chakravati was appointed by Corbyn to do the investigation and subsequently appointed as shadow ag... Nominated for a peerage by Corbyn (not without controvicy https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...iticises-shami-chakrabarti-peerage-nomination )

And even her report stated

.

• enquiry.[7]

The report concluded that the party "is not overrun by anti-Semitism, Islamophobia, or other forms of racism," but has suffered from an "occasionally toxic atmosphere" and "too much clear evidence [of] ignorant attitudes".[2][8]

So not overrun but clear evidence of ignorant attitudes

This is from a Feldman article
https://www.haaretz.com/amp/opinion...sm-problem-didn-t-start-with-corbyn-1.5980426

.

Others acknowledge the problem is more widespread but then trot out evasive phrases about "unconscious anti-Semitism," or vaguely suggest we educate people to recognise anti-Semitic tropes.

The problems go deeper than Labour leaders have been willing to admit.

Hardly ringing endorsements of a party without issues...

And we have the equalities commission... Who lest we forget

The Equality and Human Rights Commission(EHRC) is a non-departmental public body in England and Wales, established by the Equality Act 2006 with effect from 1 October 2007. The Commission has responsibility for the promotion and enforcement of equality and non-discrimination laws in England, Scotland and Wales.

Have actually undertaken a formal enquiry using public funds because they believe in the balance of probability the law has been broken


So yah... I think try answering my point without deflecting...

.
So again why is there only a formal investigation into labour?

Do you believe the equalities commission would do this without evidence?

Do you believe the equalities commission wouldn't undertake similar investigation into other parties if the same evidence bar was reached ?

If no then the investigation is clearly warranted
If yes then on what do you base that?

 

[ZupZup]

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com...semitism-labour-party-our-response-complaints

So again why is there only a formal investigation into labour?

Do you believe the equalities commission would do this without evidence?

Do you believe the equalities commission wouldn't undertake similar investigation into other parties if the same evidence bar was reached ?

If no then the investigation is clearly warranted
If yes then on what do you base that?

I don’t think the EHRC would do an investigation without evidence... but why would it be unfair to even question their decision to launch a formal investigation in this instance? Are they above criticism for some reason?

Which in your opinion was a bigger issue in terms of political racism... Windrush or anti-semitism in Labour? I know what I would consider the correct answer to that question given that one of these involved wrongly deporting people and some have subsequently died.

Yet where is the formal EHRC investigation into Windrush? It’s almost beyond any logical comprehension that they wouldn’t launch a formal investigation into Windrush and the hostile environment.

Feel free to explain why the evidence bar for Windrush wasn’t reached... or why it’s not deemed to be so significant?

 

[sun_tzu]

Erm windrush was only referred to them in may
https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...ndal-hostile-environment-institutional-racism

So it's an ongoing investigation... Which would be why no action is taken to date as they are assessing the evidence to see if it reaches their standard for formal enquiry / prosecution

 

[berbatrick]

I think as the equalities commission are the leading body in this under UK law I'd be inclined to say they should be taken pretty seriously.... Let's not forget they have taken legal action against a political party before (the BNP)

Chakravati was appointed by Corbyn to do the investigation and subsequently appointed as shadow ag... Nominated for a peerage by Corbyn (not without controvicy https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...iticises-shami-chakrabarti-peerage-nomination )

And even her report stated


So not overrun but clear evidence of ignorant attitudes

This is from a Feldman article
https://www.haaretz.com/amp/opinion...sm-problem-didn-t-start-with-corbyn-1.5980426



Hardly ringing endorsements of a party without issues...

And we have the equalities commission... Who lest we forget

The Equality and Human Rights Commission(EHRC) is a non-departmental public body in England and Wales, established by the Equality Act 2006 with effect from 1 October 2007. The Commission has responsibility for the promotion and enforcement of equality and non-discrimination laws in England, Scotland and Wales.

Have actually undertaken a formal enquiry using public funds because they believe in the balance of probability the law has been broken


So yah... I think try answering my point without deflecting...

You started your post by talking about the illuminati. if you wanted a serious discussion you could have started with a serious, non-trolling post.

i dont care if its a ringing endorsement or not, because the charges against him aren't subtle. it isn't that he's a forgetful old man or that he's an emabarrasing uncle - it is serious stuff. People have asked him to resign, the US State Department is planning actions against their strongest ally if he gets power, and voters have abandoned him over this- and the headline result of the 2 major inquiries is there is no systemic evidence. There are polls showing that anti-semitism in the labour party is lower than in the conservative party. That is the actual investigated evidence we have.
if you want to argue about his imperfect attitiudes that's another issue. but it is never framed as that - he is a racist who is an existential threat to british jews, is the common framing, which merits the response it has received.

edit - the rhetoric used about the threat corbyn poses to british jews matches and surpasses the rhetoric about the threat trump poses to american minorities, some of whom have had their kids snatched away, to be locked in cages from where they might never be reunited.

 

[Rolandofgilead]

Labour party workers having a ballot over austerity measures... Imposed by labour party

Oooooh Jeremy Corbyn




https://order-order.com/2019/06/11/labour-staff-formally-decide-hold-ballot-strike-action/

You're quoting Guido

I know you tend to have a one track tory mind but come on mate.

 

[ZupZup]

Erm windrush was only referred to them in may
https://amp.theguardian.com/politic...ndal-hostile-environment-institutional-racism

So it's an ongoing investigation... Which would be why no action is taken to date as they are assessing the evidence to see if it reaches their standard for formal enquiry / prosecution

You actually believe this is the case? MP’s wrote a letter demanding an EHRC investigation as stated in the article... but where is any comment from the EHRC? They’ve had six weeks since then where they could have even announced they they would look into it and possibly consider a formal investigation but have said nothing as far as I can tell. I’ve searched and found no response to the referral at all.

When Labour were referred to them in March, the EHRC released a statement that was all over the news to say they would consider an investigation... yet no statement on Windrush after that was referred to them to say the same thing? Is that not slightly concerning? It would certainly cause me to have some question over their priorities.

I’d have questions anyway about why the EHRC feel like they would even need a referral in May 2019 over Windrush. Are they that incompetent? It was a political scandal so could hardly have escaped their attention. What are they even there for, if not to intervene after quite blatant and widely reported political racism?

I’ll finish by saying that if the EHRC do not issue a statement in the coming months to say they are launching a formal investigation into Windrush and the hostile environment after this referral... would it be fair to question the organisation’s bias and legitimacy? I believe so.

 

[sun_tzu]

You actually believe this is the case? MP’s wrote a letter demanding an EHRC investigation as stated in the article... but where is any comment from the EHRC? They’ve had six weeks since then where they could have even announced they they would look into it and possibly consider a formal investigation but have said nothing as far as I can tell. I’ve searched and found no response to the referral at all.

When Labour were referred to them in March, the EHRC released a statement that was all over the news to say they would consider an investigation... yet no statement on Windrush after that was referred to them to say the same thing? Is that not slightly concerning? It would certainly cause me to have some question over their priorities.

I’d have questions anyway about why the EHRC feel like they would even need a referral in May 2019 over Windrush. Are they that incompetent? It was a political scandal so could hardly have escaped their attention. What are they even there for, if not to intervene after quite blatant and widely reported political racism?

I’ll finish by saying that if the EHRC do not issue a statement in the coming months to say they are launching a formal investigation into Windrush and the hostile environment after this referral... would it be fair to question the organisation’s bias and legitimacy? I believe so.

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.co...ality-and-human-rights-commission-by-caa/amp/
Labour were referred in August 2018
It took till 28 may 2019 for ehrc to finish their initial investigation and decide to formalise proceedings.. They made no statement as to what they would do between those dates
Why would you expect them to act differently?

I would expect a thorough investigation and if they believe at the end of that the law has been broken then I expect them to open a formal investigation... You know .... Exactly like they did with labour

 

[ZupZup]

https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.co...ality-and-human-rights-commission-by-caa/amp/
Labour were referred in August 2018
It took till 28 may 2019 for ehrc to finish their initial investigation and decide to formalise proceedings.. They made no statement as to what they would do between those dates
Why would you expect them to act differently?

I would expect a thorough investigation and if they believe at the end of that the law has been broken then I expect them to open a formal investigation... You know .... Exactly like they did with labour

The EHRC released a statement in March to say they were doing a preliminary investigation into Labour which might turn into a full investigation.

The EHRC also released a briefing in June 2018 discussing some of their concerns around the Government's hostile environment policy shortly after the Windrush scandal hit. They basically just list various potential issues and then suggest the Government do their own internal investigation and fix the problems themselves. An absolute whitewash... they didn't want to investigate the issues themselves and see whether individuals had been illegally discriminated against at all (they absolutely have). Why not?

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com...immigration_house_of_commons_14_june_2018.pdf

Now 80 or so MP's have had to sign a letter demanding the EHRC investigate because they haven't done so themselves. I think serious questions are to be asked about the EHRC's independence and judgement when in June 2018 they didn't deem the hostile environment policies of the Government and the Windrush scandal worthy of their own investigation.

 

[sun_tzu]

The EHRC released a statement in March to say they were doing a preliminary investigation into Labour which might turn into a full investigation.

The EHRC also released a briefing in June 2018 discussing some of their concerns around the Government's hostile environment policy shortly after the Windrush scandal hit. They basically just list various potential issues and then suggest the Government do their own internal investigation and fix the problems themselves. An absolute whitewash... they didn't want to investigate the issues themselves and see whether individuals had been illegally discriminated against at all (they absolutely have). Why not?

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com...immigration_house_of_commons_14_june_2018.pdf

Now 80 or so MP's have had to sign a letter demanding the EHRC investigate because they haven't done so themselves. I think serious questions are to be asked about the EHRC's independence and judgement when in June 2018 they didn't deem the hostile environment policies of the Government and the Windrush scandal worthy of their own investigation.

yeah whilst you were on the EHRC sight perhaps you should havle looked this up

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/our-powers/inquiries-investigations-and-wider-powers
As these pre-enforcement case studies show, the Commission is extremely effective at resolving matters without the need for formal proceedings. Where attempts to encourage compliance have failed, however, we may take formal enforcement action.

This may include:

• inquiries
• investigations
• unlawful act notices
• agreements
• assessments
• compliance notices

after that they move to formal proceedings ... which they have with the labour party as the labour party after the preliminary investigation started continued to undertake practices that drew concern

The preliminary inquiry was ordered after the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism submitted complaints and the Jewish Labour Movement handed over 1000 pages of testimony from hundreds of Jewish members of the Labour Party.


“Having received a number of complaints regarding antisemitism in the Labour Party, we believe Labour may have unlawfully discriminated against people because of their ethnicity and religious beliefs,” said an EHRC spokeswoman.


“Our concerns are sufficient for us to consider using our statutory enforcement powers. As set out in our enforcement policy, we are now engaging with the Labour Party to give them an opportunity to respond.”

The JLM said it had been forced to act due to the failure of Labour to tackle anti-Semitism.

“After years of anti-Jewish racism experienced by our members, and a long pattern of denial, obfuscation and inaction by those with the power and ability to do something about it, we felt there was little choice but to secure a fully independent inquiry, not corrupted by internal practices,” said a spokesman.


“Everything that has happened in the months since our referral supports our view that the Labour Party is now institutionally anti-Semitic.”

If the probe moves into a full-blown statutory investigation, it is set to be the EHRC’s biggest inquiry since the 2016 investigation into victimisation in the Met Police.

and by the way - windrush being awful and something that most probably will get the same treatment after the labour enquiry when the enquiry has run its course in no way excuses the top down antisemitic actions of labour

with labour they waited to see if labour fixed its own house - it didnt and further action was requested in August 18 - upon further investigation they acted in May 19
Windrush had further action requested in May 2019 - they are in the investigation process

 

[Nuts]

This thread shows exactly what Corbyn’s enemies are trying to do - The Art of Bore only ever talks about anti-semitism.

They’ve succeeded in shifting the debate - the Tories are suffering from a dearth of ideas to solve domestic problems in the UK and they don’t want anyone to see the energy and hope that surround the Labour Party membership.

Far easier to effectively demonise them all as racists. There are so many decent Labour Party members who have very honourable intentions and they’re having to spend all their time and energy engaging with the anti-semitism debate, constantly under threat of being called racist if they defend Corbyn. It’s grotesque.

 

[Cheesy]

This thread shows exactly what Corbyn’s enemies are trying to do - The Art of Bore only ever talks about anti-semitism.

They’ve succeeded in shifting the debate - the Tories are suffering from a dearth of ideas to solve domestic problems in the UK and they don’t want anyone to see the energy and hope that surround the Labour Party membership.

Far easier to effectively demonise them all as racists. There are so many decent Labour Party members who have very honourable intentions and they’re having to spend all their time and energy engaging with the anti-semitism debate, constantly under threat of being called racist if they defend Corbyn. It’s grotesque.

Shame it's not exactly replicating itself with the general electorate then...

 

[RedSky]

The Art of Bore.

It's the only thing they can actually attack and even then they have to resort to lines of "oh they were paid off" when reports come back postitive. Just your typical conspiracy theory nuts.

 

[sun_tzu]

This thread shows exactly what Corbyn’s enemies are trying to do - The Art of Bore only ever talks about anti-semitism.

They’ve succeeded in shifting the debate - the Tories are suffering from a dearth of ideas to solve domestic problems in the UK and they don’t want anyone to see the energy and hope that surround the Labour Party membership.

Far easier to effectively demonise them all as racists. There are so many decent Labour Party members who have very honourable intentions and they’re having to spend all their time and energy engaging with the anti-semitism debate, constantly under threat of being called racist if they defend Corbyn. It’s grotesque.

we can talk about the impending clusterfeck johnson will be and how with some decent leadership we might not be up to our tits in shit but meh gten you jjst get abused and called a red tory or blaitrite scum and yeah lets be honest the fact that the ehcr is undertaking its biggest investigation since the met investigation into institutional racism is pretty damning in its self dont you think its worthy of cutting through the bullshit about the god awful lack of a coherent brexit policy (which ironically is playing right into johnsons hands)

and nobody is deamonising all labour members as racists - i used to be one (a labour member for many years) - but yeah its true the leadership and the tolerance of franky intolerable behavior has changed ... its not honorable... its anti semitic... its wrong and it will most probably be shown to be illegal... that and people defending that is whats grotesque

 

[Maticmaker]

Racism exists in all parts of society and therefore in all political parties too. What exactly constitutes racism these days is what seems to be blurring the edges in many debates. I've even heard some people describe the 'Scouser v Manc' enmity as a form of racism. Flinging accusations about left and right does not denigrate racism, it normalises it, therefore all parties, institutions etc. need to define, in terms of the laws of the land, what happens under their control, or on their watch, concerning racist practices and speech and take immediate and prompt action against those who transgress.

 

[Kentonio]

Far easier to effectively demonise them all as racists. There are so many decent Labour Party members who have very honourable intentions and they’re having to spend all their time and energy engaging with the anti-semitism debate, constantly under threat of being called racist if they defend Corbyn. It’s grotesque.

They're having to spend all their time and energy on it, because the leadership are too damn stupid to have put this to bed as soon as it came out. It should have been priority 1 and everything else put aside until the crisis was averted. Instead they fecked around as usual, and ended up looking like they didn't care.

 

[Nuts]

They're having to spend all their time and energy on it, because the leadership are too damn stupid to have put this to bed as soon as it came out. It should have been priority 1 and everything else put aside until the crisis was averted. Instead they fecked around as usual, and ended up looking like they didn't care.

No they didn’t. You’re just too gullible.

 

[Nuts]

we can talk about the impending clusterfeck johnson will be and how with some decent leadership we might not be up to our tits in shit but meh gten you jjst get abused and called a red tory or blaitrite scum and yeah lets be honest the fact that the ehcr is undertaking its biggest investigation since the met investigation into institutional racism is pretty damning in its self dont you think its worthy of cutting through the bullshit about the god awful lack of a coherent brexit policy (which ironically is playing right into johnsons hands)

and nobody is deamonising all labour members as racists - i used to be one (a labour member for many years) - but yeah its true the leadership and the tolerance of franky intolerable behavior has changed ... its not honorable... its anti semitic... its wrong and it will most probably be shown to be illegal... that and people defending that is whats grotesque

Can’t understand most of this and you’ve cut and pasted a laughable graph from the Torygraph.

If your sources in this thread are in anyway indicative of your actual reading you need to diversify a little.

 

[Cheesy]

Racism exists in all parts of society and therefore in all political parties too. What exactly constitutes racism these days is what seems to be blurring the edges in many debates. I've even heard some people describe the 'Scouser v Manc' enmity as a form of racism. Flinging accusations about left and right does not denigrate racism, it normalises it, therefore all parties, institutions etc. need to define, in terms of the laws of the land, what happens under their control, or on their watch, concerning racist practices and speech and take immediate and prompt action against those who transgress.

feck me, are we really at the part where everyone's racist, so it's alright if Labour are too?

As a party, Labour are supposed to be committed to social justice and equality. That's a fair, decent goal, and I'd argue a lot of Corbyn's policies come close to helping achieve that, certainly much more so than his Tory or Lib Dem counterparts. But naturally if you're going to strive towards that goal then you're going to have higher standards for conduct than your right-wing counterparts: you're inevitably going to see inequality and discrimination as an evil that needs to be rooted out of society to the greatest extent possible, and a party that doesn't look to do this should not be one that appeals to someone on the left.

Look, I'll agree this discussion has to an extent been consistently overblown. Labour's problems with anti-semitism probably aren't as bad as the Tories' problems with anti-Muslim sentiment, and Boris will probably end up being their leader in spite of an array of offensive and derogatory comment he's made throughout his career on an almost impressively wide range of issues. But something being overblown doesn't mean it's not a problem: what's fascinating is the mental gymnastics on display here from both general posters online (like here) and the party leadership to determine that it's not a problem at all. Or that every time it rears its head it's just an accident. The MP for Peterborough may not be a genuine anti-semite - but what does it say about her if she associates in circles where it's rampant to the point where it's easy for her to accidentally like a post containing it?

 

[Nuts]

feck me, are we really at the part where everyone's racist, so it's alright if Labour are too?

As a party, Labour are supposed to be committed to social justice and equality. That's a fair, decent goal, and I'd argue a lot of Corbyn's policies come close to helping achieve that, certainly much more so than his Tory or Lib Dem counterparts. But naturally if you're going to strive towards that goal then you're going to have higher standards for conduct than your right-wing counterparts: you're inevitably going to see inequality and discrimination as an evil that needs to be rooted out of society to the greatest extent possible, and a party that doesn't look to do this should not be one that appeals to someone on the left.

Look, I'll agree this discussion has to an extent been consistently overblown. Labour's problems with anti-semitism probably aren't as bad as the Tories' problems with anti-Muslim sentiment, and Boris will probably end up being their leader in spite of an array of offensive and derogatory comment he's made throughout his career on an almost impressively wide range of issues. But something being overblown doesn't mean it's not a problem: what's fascinating is the mental gymnastics on display here from both general posters online (like here) and the party leadership to determine that it's not a problem at all. Or that every time it rears its head it's just an accident. The MP for Peterborough may not be a genuine anti-semite - but what does it say about her if she associates in circles where it's rampant to the point where it's easy for her to accidentally like a post containing it?

She ‘may not be an genuine anti-semite’?

Based on a Facebook like? Jeebus...

 

[nickm]

This thread shows exactly what Corbyn’s enemies are trying to do - The Art of Bore only ever talks about anti-semitism.

They’ve succeeded in shifting the debate - the Tories are suffering from a dearth of ideas to solve domestic problems in the UK and they don’t want anyone to see the energy and hope that surround the Labour Party membership.

Far easier to effectively demonise them all as racists. There are so many decent Labour Party members who have very honourable intentions and they’re having to spend all their time and energy engaging with the anti-semitism debate, constantly under threat of being called racist if they defend Corbyn. It’s grotesque.

You've just acknowledged the exact leadership issue that's the problem. If Labour's leadership was any good, they would have nailed this issue - so the other stuff got the attention. In fact, a test for any leader of anything, is to make sure their message gets heard, and to stop other stuff getting in the way.

So these ideas to solve the UK's domestic problems:

There was an interesting article in the Times on this the other day. The writer made the point that all this supposed fresh thinking about Britain's problems, is anything but. It's comfort blanket stuff and deeply backwards looking: nationalising everything, ending school tests, scrap tuition fees, chuck pensioners even more money etc. Where stuff isn't backwards looking, it's timid - Brexit, a lack of a foreign policy. And all of it is mind-numbingly expensive. The only thing stopping it from the labelled the impractical wish list that it is, is the Tories are even worse.

 

[Cheesy]

She ‘may not be an genuine anti-semite’?

Based on a Facebook like? Jeebus...

The one-off liking of a post obviously isn't the problem. It's that this stuff keeps on happening. Again and again. They may be minor incidents but Britain's Jewish population is kinda obviously concerned that the Labour leadership don't think it's a problem that some prominent party figures keep on accidentally doing or liking things that could be construed as problematic or anti-semitic.

 

[Shamwow]

There was an interesting article in the Times on this the other day. The writer made the point that all this supposed fresh thinking about Britain's problems, is anything but. It's comfort blanket stuff and deeply backwards looking: nationalising everything, ending school tests, scrap tuition fees, chuck pensioners even more money etc. Where stuff isn't backwards looking, it's timid - Brexit, a lack of a foreign policy. And all of it is mind-numbingly expensive. The only thing stopping it from the labelled the impractical wish list that it is, is the Tories are even worse.

Sounds like a completely honest appraisal. Who wrote it out of interest?

 

[Nuts]

The one-off liking of a post obviously isn't the problem. It's that this stuff keeps on happening. Again and again. They may be minor incidents but Britain's Jewish population is kinda obviously concerned that the Labour leadership don't think it's a problem that some prominent party figures keep on accidentally doing or liking things that could be construed as problematic or anti-semitic.

I disagree. I just don’t see incidents from ‘prominent party figures’ happening ‘again and again’. That’s an exaggeration.

Frankly, the only thing I’ve seen recently that was without doubt anti-semitic was the attack ad that Alastair Campbell created against Michael Howard. It’s going a while back but it was indisputably anti-Semitic and from a ‘prominent figure’ who continually uses anti-semitism as a stick to beat Corbyn with.

 

[Shamwow]

I disagree. I just don’t see incidents from ‘prominent party figures’ happening ‘again and again’. That’s an exaggeration.

Frankly, the only thing I’ve seen recently that was without doubt anti-semitic was the attack ad that Alastair Campbell created against Michael Howard. It’s going a while back but it was indisputably anti-Semitic and from a ‘prominent figure’ who continually uses anti-semitism as a stick to beat Corbyn with.

What about when Alastair Campbell called Jon lansman (a Jew) a puppetmaster?

 

[jeff_goldblum]

There was an interesting article in the Times on this the other day. The writer made the point that all this supposed fresh thinking about Britain's problems, is anything but. It's comfort blanket stuff and deeply backwards looking: nationalising everything, ending school tests, scrap tuition fees, chuck pensioners even more money etc. Where stuff isn't backwards looking, it's timid - Brexit, a lack of a foreign policy. And all of it is mind-numbingly expensive. The only thing stopping it from the labelled the impractical wish list that it is, is the Tories are even worse.

Throwing money at pensioners for the simple reason that they're pensioners is one thing that infuriates me and which is a huge drain on our ability to spend money where it matters. Addressing pensioner poverty and social isolation is important, but I fail to see why we should be issuing freebies to well-off pensioners whose income in retirement exceeds that most working families and who have far fewer outgoings than a working family. The ageing population and their propensity to turn up to vote means pensioners are a voting bloc no-one dares antagonise under FPTP.

I'd argue a bit of wilful ignorance/laziness from the writer of that article on some of the other things. Labour policy on tuition fees, school testing and re-nationalisation isn't just a case of reverting back to what existed before, they do have alternative proposals which are 'fresh' in the sense that no-ones tried them in the UK before. Off the top of my head, Labour's proposed model for nationalisation bears little resemblence to the old school centralised nationalisation we used to have in this country.

 

[Kentonio]

No they didn’t. You’re just too gullible.

You do a great job of demonstrating the Labour leadership attitude. ‘Hey potential Labour voter, if you think we have done a shit job of dealing with anti-semitism in the party, then feck you, you’re clearly a gullible prick who doesn’t deserve the opportunity to vote for us!’.

I’m assuming the polls are just an anti-Corbyn capitalist plot too, right comrade..?

 

[Maticmaker]

feck me, are we really at the part where everyone's racist, so it's alright if Labour are too?

As a party, Labour are supposed to be committed to social justice and equality. That's a fair, decent goal, and I'd argue a lot of Corbyn's policies come close to helping achieve that, certainly much more so than his Tory or Lib Dem counterparts. But naturally if you're going to strive towards that goal then you're going to have higher standards for conduct than your right-wing counterparts: you're inevitably going to see inequality and discrimination as an evil that needs to be rooted out of society to the greatest extent possible, and a party that doesn't look to do this should not be one that appeals to someone on the left.

Look, I'll agree this discussion has to an extent been consistently overblown. Labour's problems with anti-semitism probably aren't as bad as the Tories' problems with anti-Muslim sentiment, and Boris will probably end up being their leader in spite of an array of offensive and derogatory comment he's made throughout his career on an almost impressively wide range of issues. But something being overblown doesn't mean it's not a problem: what's fascinating is the mental gymnastics on display here from both general posters online (like here) and the party leadership to determine that it's not a problem at all. Or that every time it rears its head it's just an accident. The MP for Peterborough may not be a genuine anti-semite - but what does it say about her if she associates in circles where it's rampant to the point where it's easy for her to accidentally like a post containing it?

This exactly the point, 'overblowing' what is a real problem, does nothing to solve the problem and in the worse case scenario can lead to a normalisation effect.

 

[BobbyManc]

There was an interesting article in the Times on this the other day. The writer made the point that all this supposed fresh thinking about Britain's problems, is anything but. It's comfort blanket stuff and deeply backwards looking: nationalising everything, ending school tests, scrap tuition fees, chuck pensioners even more money etc. Where stuff isn't backwards looking, it's timid - Brexit, a lack of a foreign policy. And all of it is mind-numbingly expensive. The only thing stopping it from the labelled the impractical wish list that it is, is the Tories are even worse.

Yeah I read that too. Bit of a strange article. He's basically making the argument that reversing a decade of austerity is 'comfort blanket stuff'. Well yeah, course it is, it would be comforting to know that working families don't have to rely on food banks to survive and that local councils are properly funded. School tests are unpopular among teachers, students and parents, but somehow it's backwards for Labour to be listening and responding to these concerns. The article is pretty rubbish. It's criticising Labour for having the audacity to adopt and endorse policies which could be described as popular, and somehow construes things such as making housing, social care and university education more affordable and accessible as 'backwards looking'. You can discuss the viability or the merit of such policies if you wish, but 'backwards looking'? That's a strange angle to take.

As for the lack of a foreign policy, I'm only guessing that he assumes that no longer arming the likes of Saudi Arabia would constitute no foreign policy. See for instance https://bfpg.co.uk/2017/05/labour-manifesto-pledges-on-uk-foreign-policy/ which summarises Labour's foreign policy in its 2017 manifesto, which could hardly be accused of being inchoate or nebulous.

It always disturbs me when people describe stuff like basic access to services that determine someone's ability to feed themselves and their families as an 'impractical wish list'. It reminds of when Raab dismissed a disabled woman's concerns about government cuts to social care by blithely responding that there was no merit in discussing 'a childish wish list'. Yeah, because the height of childishness is hoping that your ability to survive isn't impeded by brutal government cuts. Austerity is and always has been an ideological choice rather than a necessity.

 

[SteveJ]

Yeah I read that too. Bit of a strange article. He's basically making the argument that reversing a decade of austerity is 'comfort blanket stuff'. Well yeah, course it is, it would be comforting to know that working families don't have to rely on food banks to survive and that local councils are properly funded. School tests are unpopular among teachers, students and parents, but somehow it's backwards for Labour to be listening and responding to these concerns. The article is pretty rubbish. It's criticising Labour for having the audacity to adopt and endorse policies which could be described as popular, and somehow construes things such as making housing, social care and university education more affordable and accessible as 'backwards looking'. You can discuss the viability or the merit of such policies if you wish, but 'backwards looking'? That's a bizarre angle to take.

As for the lack of a foreign policy, I'm only guessing that he assumes that no longer arming the likes of Saudi Arabia would constitute no foreign policy. See for instance https://bfpg.co.uk/2017/05/labour-manifesto-pledges-on-uk-foreign-policy/ which summarises Labour's foreign policy in its 2017 manifesto, which could hardly be accused of being inchoate or nebulous.

It always disturbs me when people describe stuff like basic access to services that determine someone's ability to feed themselves and their families as an 'impractical wish list'. It reminds of when Raab dismissed a disabled woman's concerns about government cuts to social care by blithely responding that there was no merit in discussing 'a childish wish list'. Yeah, because the height of childishness is hoping that your ability to survive isn't impeded by brutal government cuts. Austerity is and always has been an ideological choice rather than a necessity.

*applauds*

 

[Sweet Square]

Yeah I read that too. Bit of a strange article. He's basically making the argument that reversing a decade of austerity is 'comfort blanket stuff'. Well yeah, course it is, it would be comforting to know that working families don't have to rely on food banks to survive and that local councils are properly funded. School tests are unpopular among teachers, students and parents, but somehow it's backwards for Labour to be listening and responding to these concerns. The article is pretty rubbish. It's criticising Labour for having the audacity to adopt and endorse policies which could be described as popular, and somehow construes things such as making housing, social care and university education more affordable and accessible as 'backwards looking'. You can discuss the viability or the merit of such policies if you wish, but 'backwards looking'? That's a strange angle to take.

As for the lack of a foreign policy, I'm only guessing that he assumes that no longer arming the likes of Saudi Arabia would constitute no foreign policy. See for instance https://bfpg.co.uk/2017/05/labour-manifesto-pledges-on-uk-foreign-policy/ which summarises Labour's foreign policy in its 2017 manifesto, which could hardly be accused of being inchoate or nebulous.

It always disturbs me when people describe stuff like basic access to services that determine someone's ability to feed themselves and their families as an 'impractical wish list'. It reminds of when Raab dismissed a disabled woman's concerns about government cuts to social care by blithely responding that there was no merit in discussing 'a childish wish list'. Yeah, because the height of childishness is hoping that your ability to survive isn't impeded by brutal government cuts. Austerity is and always has been an ideological choice rather than a necessity.

Great post.

 

[Kentonio]

Yeah I read that too. Bit of a strange article. He's basically making the argument that reversing a decade of austerity is 'comfort blanket stuff'. Well yeah, course it is, it would be comforting to know that working families don't have to rely on food banks to survive and that local councils are properly funded. School tests are unpopular among teachers, students and parents, but somehow it's backwards for Labour to be listening and responding to these concerns. The article is pretty rubbish. It's criticising Labour for having the audacity to adopt and endorse policies which could be described as popular, and somehow construes things such as making housing, social care and university education more affordable and accessible as 'backwards looking'. You can discuss the viability or the merit of such policies if you wish, but 'backwards looking'? That's a strange angle to take.

As for the lack of a foreign policy, I'm only guessing that he assumes that no longer arming the likes of Saudi Arabia would constitute no foreign policy. See for instance https://bfpg.co.uk/2017/05/labour-manifesto-pledges-on-uk-foreign-policy/ which summarises Labour's foreign policy in its 2017 manifesto, which could hardly be accused of being inchoate or nebulous.

It always disturbs me when people describe stuff like basic access to services that determine someone's ability to feed themselves and their families as an 'impractical wish list'. It reminds of when Raab dismissed a disabled woman's concerns about government cuts to social care by blithely responding that there was no merit in discussing 'a childish wish list'. Yeah, because the height of childishness is hoping that your ability to survive isn't impeded by brutal government cuts. Austerity is and always has been an ideological choice rather than a necessity.

Great stuff.

 

[Nuts]

You do a great job of demonstrating the Labour leadership attitude. ‘Hey potential Labour voter, if you think we have done a shit job of dealing with anti-semitism in the party, then feck you, you’re clearly a gullible prick who doesn’t deserve the opportunity to vote for us!’.

I’m assuming the polls are just an anti-Corbyn capitalist plot too, right comrade..?

Generally agree, although Labour have been mostly ahead recently. They certainly compounded polling expectations in Peterborough.

 

[Cheesy]

This exactly the point, 'overblowing' what is a real problem, does nothing to solve the problem and in the worse case scenario can lead to a normalisation effect.

Something being overblown doesn't make it entirely untrue though. It's false to argue there's an anti-semitism epidemic within Labour and I don't think Corbyn as an individual is particularly anti-semitic or someone with a dislike towards the Jewish population; nevertheless there have been continual cases of anti-semitic comments and stances within the party recently which have either been tacitly cast aside or condemned far too lightly. And even if it is overblown, a historical look at what's happened when anti-semitism flourishes is probably why the UK's Jewish population (generalising slightly) are going to be extremely concerned at anything which could be construed as demeaning or discriminatory towards them.

 

[Cheesy]

Generally agree, although Labour have been mostly ahead recently. They certainly compounded polling expectations in Peterborough.

They've come out 1st in plenty but more so in the sense that the UK has increasingly shifted to four-way politics recently with four major parties all threatening to hit 15% or above when it comes to voting intentions: coupled with that has been a sudden and sharp Tory decline. The Tories will likely reverse their decline quite quickly if a hard Brexiteer like Boris takes charge but whether Corbyn will be able win back those defecting to the Lib Dems is another matter.

 

[Sweet Square]

And even if it is overblown, a historical look at what's happened when anti-semitism flourishes is probably why the UK's Jewish population (generalising slightly) are going to be extremely concerned at anything which could be construed as demeaning or discriminatory towards them.

But it's clearly not in the labour party and if there is this concerned over anything that could anti semitic, where were the protests over the tory support for
Viktor Orbán ? Plus the reaction from the labour party towards anti semitism in the party has clearly been good, they've suspend people, put out great videos showing people how anti semitism can happened and they've adopted the 11 IHRA examples. They done a ton of good work towards at making the party a better anti racist party.

Honestly it just be better for everyone involved to admit the sticking issue is Palestine.

 

[Ubik]

Something being overblown doesn't make it entirely true though. It's false to argue there's an anti-semitism epidemic within Labour and I don't think Corbyn as an individual is particularly anti-semitic or someone with a dislike towards the Jewish population; nevertheless there have been continual cases of anti-semitic comments and stances within the party recently which have either been tacitly cast aside or condemned far too lightly. And even if it is overblown, a historical look at what's happened when anti-semitism flourishes is probably why the UK's Jewish population (generalising slightly) are going to be extremely concerned at anything which could be construed as demeaning or discriminatory towards them.

It's strange this has to be spelled out when one member of the NEC has been recorded (twice) engaging in fairly straightforward antisemitic behaviour, and another who, whilst chair of disputes, ignored actual holocaust denial.

 

[ZupZup]

There are quite literally large numbers of people scouring the internet activities and social media of people they don't know just to try and find something they can shout 'anti-semite' at and link it back to the Labour party. A lot of it is actually very tenuous and nobody would ever get the benefit of the doubt about anything they interact with online because outrage is what we need. It's actually quite weird behaviour when you think about it.

I absolutely do not condone any racist behaviour online or otherwise, but I do find the imbalance in the way it is examined and how people go out searching for it like it's their second job pretty fecking strange.

A lot of the time I see comments like “shared a platform with” used as stick to beat someone with and a lot of stuff is just pure guilt by association.

Maybe it’s just the little bubble I am in... but it feels like I see and read more about anti-semitism in the British news than practically all other types of racism combined... despite it almost certainly being a lot less prevalent than racism against Black people or Islamophobia for example which also tend to manifest in a lot of ways that go far beyond comments posted on social media.

 

[Cheesy]

But it's clearly not in the labour party and if there is this concerned over anything that could anti semitic, where were the protests over the tory support for Viktor Orbán ? Plus the reaction from the labour party towards anti semitism in the party has clearly been good, they've suspend people, put out great videos showing people how anti semitism can happened and they've adopted the 11 IHRA examples. They done a ton of good work towards at making the party a better anti racist party.

Honestly it just be better for everyone involved to admit the sticking issue is Palestine.

The Tories are cnuts as well. We know this. It doesn't excuse the multiple examples we've seen come from Labour. Their response has been mixed - sometimes prompt, sometimes a bit more delayed.

 

[Cheesy]

It's strange this has to be spelled out when one member of the NEC has been recorded (twice) engaging in fairly straightforward antisemitic behaviour, and another who, whilst chair of disputes, ignored actual holocaust denial.

Aye, there's something deeply concerned when a party committed to social justice and equality start waving this away as being not a problem even if Jewish people are quite clearly saying there is a problem, and when it's seemingly fine because it's being overblown and because the Tories are cnuts too.

 

[Cheesy]

There are quite literally large numbers of people scouring the internet activities and social media of people they don't know just to try and find something they can shout 'anti-semite' at and link it back to the Labour party. A lot of it is actually very tenuous and nobody would ever get the benefit of the doubt about anything they interact with online because outrage is what we need. It's actually quite weird behaviour when you think about it.

I absolutely do not condone any racist behaviour online or otherwise, but I do find the imbalance in the way it is examined and how people go out searching for it like it's their second job pretty fecking strange.

A lot of the time I see comments like “shared a platform with” used as stick to beat someone with and a lot of stuff is just pure guilt by association.

Maybe it’s just the little bubble I am in... but it feels like I see and read more about anti-semitism in the British news than practically all other types of racism combined... despite it almost certainly being a lot less prevalent than racism against Black people or Islamophobia for example which also tend to manifest in a lot of ways that go far beyond comments posted on social media.

The fact there was a massive attempt to literally drive them to extinction not all that long ago probably has something to do with it...