Er what ? I wasn't.
My point is that if there's such sensitive to anti semitism in British politics why wasn't there protest toward the British government being the only european country working with and supporting a anti semitic leader ?
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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My point is that if there's such sensitive to anti semitism in British politics why wasn't there protest toward the British government being the only european country working with and supporting a anti semitic leader ?
Support is probably the wrong word for it; for the most part the Tories have cynically engaged with Orban on the basis that he's Hungary's leader and there's little they can do to change that with rhetoric alone. There ideally should be more anger directed to Orban in general across Europe considering his illiberal policies and blatant anti-semitism but international politics tends not to work that way. There's very little anyone here can do to combat Orban for the most part. Whereas the current complaints against Labour are being directed against an active UK party.
The Tories themselves don't exactly have a great history with anti-semitism, Widdecombe's comments about Howard back in the day being an immediate notable example, but I'm still not sure how that relates to Labour who as a leftist party should naturally have higher standards when it comes to equality and justice etc.
I did not say that it did, I am simply making the point that 'racist' is now a term frequently used perniciously in the wrong context, consequently this can devalue its use in the right context and anti-Semitism, in the Labour party, is the right context. What's, more the Labour party has been slow to respond effectively to this charge and has been even slower to demonstrate it will not be tolerated. Anti-Semitism, in many forms, has been 'hanging around' in the Labour party for many years (certainly when I was a member) sometimes at very high levels, but most certainly in the wing of the party that became known (in my time) as the 'looney left'. For the majority of the people I knew, who were traditional working class blue-collar people, it was ignored, instead of being challenged and it was one (of a number of reasons) I left the party, sometime ago.
I have no idea what primary form the anti-Semitism takes these days in the Labour party, but the so called hatred for the State of Israel, was often the cover for anti-Semitic views in my time, I suppose that's just got worse. I felt uncomfortable with the position but in truth I also left for other reasons, I should have stood up against it but to my personal shame I didn't. I do honestly believe most traditional labour members would still find this anti-Semitism abhorrent, but like me in my time, they are worried about other matters in the party (e.g. where to go on Brexit) and that could be a not only wrong, but a fatal mistake for the Party's hopes of one day winning power in Westminster
Any more grotesque than the way Corbyn's supporters throw labels and insults at the Tories, or indeed the Blairites? Any more grotesque than the myopic views they espouse about Israel? Any more grotesque than the expulsion of Alistair Campbell for the crime of being a centrist?
Most people aren't anti-Corbyn because they fear him. They're just sad that one of our great parties has sunk so far. Sorry but that's the truth.
What point are you exactly trying to make? The fact that 75 years ago a right wing dictator wanted to exterminate Jews... so we should put anti-semitism on a pedestal above other forms of racism?
Do you seriously believe a socialist Labour party is the start of a slippery slope to another genocide?
No, of course they aren't.
My point is that the Jewish people as a whole have for centuries been subjected to constant and unrelenting discrimination which culminated in an attempt to exterminate them. That anti-semitism while perpetrated by a fascist was often widespread across all isles of the political spectrum. And so naturally the Jewish people are very concerned whenever they perceive someone as acting in a way which they feel threatens them.
Don't think anyone seriously believes that. But the fanatically partisan way Corbyn and many of his supporters view Israel raises serious questions about whether he can trusted.
Don't think most right-thinking people would endorse Anne Widdecombe either.
She was a fairly prominent Tory back in the day and wasn't exactly vastly outside the party mainstream.
Come on thats a kop out, the tories were the only ones in Europe to support Orban, all they had to do is follow the rest of Europe. As for well international politics is tricky, half the anti semitic claims are over Corbyn history of international politics.
From the post I first quoted you on
Again my point isn't that the tories are worse so who cares, I'm glad the party has change to be become better at fighting anti semitism. It's that if you are saying a group of people are going to be extremely concerned at anything which could be construed as demeaning or discriminatory towards them then you have to have a answer as to why there was pretty much nothing said over tories support for Orban.
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It'd be hard for someone outside the party mainstream to become a minister
I don’t disagree with any of that and my post didn’t say otherwise. If you have an issue with what what I actually said because you disagree with something I’ve written, fair enough.
I can be uncomfortable with how much scrutiny and prevalence anti-semitism gets by the media in comparison to other forms of racism whilst still understanding why Jewish people would be very sensitive to any racism against them.
By putting any strand of racism above others in terms of priority we do a massive disservice to fighting racism.
If we're justifying the behaviour of Corbyn supporters by comparing them to Anne Windecombe, it's hardly a ringing endorsement of him is it.
'whataboutery' is a fairly weak argument anyway. It's fairly evident there are plenty of fruitcakes in the Tory Party but I don't see how that justifies some of the stuff we're seeing in the Labour Party.
for the record, this isn't a new phenomenon, it's just a more explicit form of attack now that labour aren't led by a Jewish person.
it's not a case of "what about x", it's a critique of why anti-semitism in labour is suddenly the most important thing. The base level of anti-semitism in the UK is pretty high, it's pretty high in labour, it was pretty high when centrist Alistair Campbell had power within the party, but it didn't matter for some reason. Then Ed Milliband was elected to the leadership and the left wing of the party slowly gained power and started to promote more anti-imperialist foreign policies, that's when the party lost both the faith and vote of a majority of British jews.
Labour should kick out every anti semite they can find, especially those in positions of power. And this will make zero differences to either the narrative of antisemitism or the voting patterns in UK elections. The only way this will stop is if labour changes it's foreign policy and they do that, they'll lose the left.
Labour should kick out every anti semite they can find, especially those in positions of power. And this will make zero differences to either the narrative of antisemitism or the voting patterns in UK elections. The only way this will stop is if labour changes it's foreign policy and they do that, they'll lose the left.
I think the point is more that you’ve never been seen to protest against Tory party Islamophobia to anything like the extent to which you’ve concerned yourself with anti-semitism.
This leads to the very real fear that a good deal of this is simply being weaponised against a politician who has had everything else thrown at him by his enemies. Those enemies have found that this sticks - it’s very hard to refute racist allegations without getting into further trouble - and I, for one, find it deeply offensive that some have used allegations of racism in bad faith.
Doesn’t Corbyn have some Jewish ancestory?
I don't have the polls at hand, but hasn't there been a sharp increase among the Jewish population of people who think the current Labour Party (I'd imagine in part due to Corbyn) is anti-semitic as a whole?
Of course, there is an argument that this is because (like you've referred to above) they generally vote Tory and so may be scared off by Corbyn's leftist policies, and it may be because of his often fair criticisms of the Israeli state.
But then that starts to veer into very, very problematic territory where we're essentially willing to dismiss the views of the UK's Jewish population (if they do indeed think anti-semitism has risen under Corbyn) when they're arguing they're being discriminated against because of their political allegiances. For the most part if a minority group argues they're being discriminated against then I'd think a common argument of the left would be that it's not really for the majority to simply dismiss that when they're not impacted by that same prejudices themselves; does that not then apply here? If a Tory MP, for example, dismissed allegations of Islamaphobia by asserting that Muslims vote for Labour and so are just trying to smear the party they don't like, then I'd expect outrage.
It's sort of wandering into messy territory to an extent but it's perhaps relevant to the discussion.
Being against the Isreali state currently, which is valid obviously does not equate to anti-semitism.
Surely Jews can understand that.
Surely Jews can understand that.
idk
As I said, this began with Milliband and was a response to the parties platform changes. The Jewish vote was solidly with New Labour, partially as a response to the post-Thatcherite tory era where Palestine-sympathies rose to the top of the tory party. Before that it was solidly with Thatcher, it's not really a voting block that's always been x or y.
Actual antisemitism in labour is pretty high, it's pretty high in the UK generally and there are still violent antisemitic attacks, though they're not specifically linked to labour you can see why jewish people wouldn't be 100% happy living here. My issue is with the idea that the current leadership is what caused all this antisemitism - it's always been there, even within the New Labour leadership. And the counterproductive nature of the criticism of Labours antisemitism, as it stands it's used as a political tool by public figures who are outwardly racist and promote much of the divisive, othering language that causes this type of racism in the first place.
Stephen Pollard for example is the most frequently wheeled around figure who talks about labours antisemitism, he has a history of flat out making up islamophobic shit and accusing muslims groups of being genocidal etc. even when they absolutely are not. Then of course you have the countless politicians who consistently vote against asylum seekers rights giving us all this shit about caring about a persecuted group. It's not just galling listening to these people, it will do nothing to stop antisemitism or racism in general. If you're going to seriously attempt to end systemic discrimination, hate crimes etc. these aren't the people who are going to help you do it, they're actively throwing fuel into the flame.
What's needed is a sustained, system approach to end both the discrimination that minorities face in their personal and professional lives throughout the country and in every industry. Not a minutiae of bad faith examples of individual racism. I don't mind the minutiae when it comes to the leadership - people in positions of power should face harsh consequences for wrongdoing, but that's not going to dent antisemitism generally or in labour. I'd be perfectly happy if labour became the only place in the UK without any antisemitism, but that's just impossible when the people trying to point it out are acting in such obviously bad faith, and at the expense of the antisemitism in the UK generally.
It also doesn't help how horrifically stupid, and at times antisemitic, the criticism of labours problems are. See the reaction to Jewdas and the attempts to call the lefts relationship with people like Noam Chomsky antisemitic. It's genuinely absurd.
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The bolded part probably indicates why the media and the Tories would be hammering this accusation home at literally every single opportunity. I think back to the General Election in 2017 and Corbyn interviews in the run up, in which it was painfully clear that he was never going to be interviewed in the same way that May was. I specifically remember an interview with Kuessenburg in which she asked several times whether or not he condemns the killing taken by the IRA. Corbyn stated every single time that yes he condemned the actions from BOTH sides. The following morning the papers were absolutely piling it on with Corbyn refuses to condemn IRA murderers etc. The truth was that he condemned both sides and said that all of the killing was wrong, but this wasn't focused on at all and truthfully that is why he is so unelectable. It isn't because he is anti-semitic, it is because he and his party has been painted as such and the electorate tend to believe everything that they are told.
My question is what happens if the EHRC investigation returns a finding of no fault? i mean, i would imagine they will find something within the party, but lets just say that they find no fault with Corbyn specifically, how long do you honestly think it will be before a new scandal is 'discovered' and then banded around as if proven?
There is no room for a left wing party in this country in all honesty. The average working class person (at least of the hundreds i know) want to leave the EU without a deal and are happy to trust our immigration, economy, workers rights etc to a government that Boris Johnson is about to lead. They don't really give a shit about Ireland or Scotland or any of the complex issues facing our neighbours. They don't care that leaving without a deal will more than likely send us deep into a depression. The truth is they care about getting rid of a few brown people and THAT is the truth that nobody speaks about and they never will because Corbyn hates jewish people apparently.
This country deserves everything it's about to get, but hey, that's democracy for you.
That was his brother Pier’s defence. ‘How can Jeremy be anti-Semitic? We look Jewish, people ask us all the time if we’re Jewish, maybe we have some ancestry’.
Jeremy and Piers, huh ?
Fairly sure they didn't grow up in a terraced house in Gorton, but who knows....
He’s a complete whackjob.
They're upper middle class. That gives some details on their background.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/po.../Jeremy-Corbyn-the-boy-to-the-manor-born.html
He's a character alright, in the mad professor kind of mould. He's actually pro Trump and a climate adviser to Boris Johnson, the two are friends.
I've read a little bit about Piers and he certainly comes from this kind of conspiratorial direction of thinking where the dominant 'agenda' in political/cultural thought is there to mislead and sedate. He's insistent on his prediction that we're going into a period of global cooling soon and global warming will be proven to be a sham and his long range weather prediction methods will be vindicated.
He's 'mad' alright but seems like he'd be good company.
If no deal happens, history will judge Corbyns leadership to have been a factor. And I believe a different Labour leader would be doing much better in the polls - there is room for a left of centre party but it has to be led by someone competent and electable. Corbyn is evidently neither.
Making Jews responsible for the actions of israel, which is invalid, obviously does equate to anti semitism. Surely Labour party supporters can understand that?
That's a convenient and rather tin eared reading which ignores all the things that Jews have actually been complaining about for the last four or so years.
The argument is the opposite. If this was any other ethnic group Labour would have listened better / treated it more decisively. Labour haven't appeared to treat anti-Semitism equally to other forms of racism and that's what is so damaging.
would anything change in voting patterns if everything but labours foreign policy changed?
Wait til Johnson becomes leader. There will be a thread like this one for him, guaranteed. When you elect people with such target rich histories don't be surprised when people go hunting.
there is a lot of racism, sexism, transphobia, sexual abuse and so on in the labour party and they're all treated the same, if you're a no-name member or low level councillor there's a good chance you'll get shitcanned, if you've got a friend high up in the party you're fine. the major cause of this in the labour party is the professionalised corruption that's endemic in politics, if your parents are connected to or members of the upper ranks you get a job and you're protected in that job until there's a public expose
the only way you'll get around this is if you're voting for independents who aren't career politicians
Theresa May oversaw the home office while it was kicking British Citizens out the country on her orders and running explicitly racist campaigns in the streets of London and the public outcry lasted what, a fortnight?
Johnson reviles people in a way that May did not. He's unfit to be PM, like Corbyn. He has too many enemies here and in the EU and his honeymoon will end on 31 Oct.
you're in for a real shock if you think people will care more about johnsons racism than they cared about grenfell or windrush
Agreed....But there aren't too many of them around, unfortunately.
But one of the biggest reasons of Corbyn making Labour almost unelectable when they should be pissing on the Tories is his entourage. People will not risk having a Government which reads as -
Prime Minister - Jeremy Corbyn
Chancellor - John McDonnell
Home Secretary - Diane Abbott
Foreign Secretary - Emily Thornberry
Corbyn chose and continues to support these three, who in Joe Public's eyes are even more incompetent than him.
those are the people that best represent the corbyn wing of the party, if he's going to make Hilary Benn chancellor, there's no point in Corbyn at all. if someone who would make hilary benn chancellor was in charge of the party, i'm not interested in voting for them
Yes....Quite understandable, but as politicians and potential Government ministers they're only appealing to the Corbynistas, not the 10 million or so voters that need to be convinced that Labour could be / would be better than the Tories at running the country.