Jesse Lingard

[Grande]

Fabio played in a Champions League final for us. Do you think fans all over Europe took notice? If Evra playing for Monaco in a Champions League run was enough for you to take notice, fair enough.

Evra and Vidic were complete unknowns to me when they signed. Had no idea who they were and was totally underwhelmed. Like I said, you're clearly better informed.

In your previous post, you reminisced about unearthing gems. It did seem as if you were implying that these gems were hidden from other clubs and scouts, not from arbitrary fans. I think it’s pretty clear that the club haven’t stopped buying players who are not known to all fans, in addition to the more household names.

Ronaldo was known by every scout in Europe and was one of the most sought after talents at the time. Liverpool were heavily interested, so in the competition between clubs, he was certainly no hidden gem. He was also very expensive for his age and experience by the standard of the time.

I think most gems turn out not to shine like diamonds, and what you are lamenting, is more about United not shining like a diamond necklace like we did at the time.

Mind you, many fans didn’t consider Ronaldo and Evra gems until after we’d won the league in 2006-2007.

 

[#07]

In your previous post, you reminisced about unearthing gems. It did seem as if you were implying that these gems were hidden from other clubs and scouts, not from arbitrary fans. I think it’s pretty clear that the club haven’t stopped buying players who are not known to all fans, in addition to the more household names.

Ronaldo was known by every scout in Europe and was one of the most sought after talents at the time. Liverpool were heavily interested, so in the competition between clubs, he was certainly no hidden gem. He was also very expensive for his age and experience by the standard of the time.

I think most gems turn out not to shine like diamonds, and what you are lamenting, is more about United not shining like a diamond necklace like we did at the time.

Mind you, many fans didn’t consider Ronaldo and Evra gems until after we’d won the league in 2006-2007.

Nowadays it feels like every single target we go after could've been identified by watching Match of the Day.

How much scouting goes into telling people Declan Rice and Jude Bellingham might be good players? Or that Jadon Sancho might be handy on the wing? Or that Kieran Trippier is a decent right back? It doesn't take a genius to know Rafa Varane and Cristiano Ronaldo might do well at Old Trafford.

What I'd like to see is another Chicharito. Someone who, maybe is known to scouts but I woudn't just know by watching BT Sport of Sky. Someone who comes in for less than £50m to £100m and absolutely smashes it.

We're constantly told we do extensive scouting e.g., 800 rightbacks to identify Wan-Bissaka. I'd quite like United to go and buy someone who is massively undervalued and give them the platform to succeed. A player I maybe don't know, haven't heard of and who doesn't cost a King's ransom.

I've got a lot of hope for Hannibal Mejbri. We went and found that kid and he looks like he's going to be the real deal. I wish we did more of that than just rolling a truckload of money in front of other Premier League teams.

 

[georgipep]

Fabio played in a Champions League final for us. Do you think fans all over Europe took notice? If Evra playing for Monaco in a Champions League run was enough for you to take notice, fair enough.

Evra and Vidic were complete unknowns to me when they signed. Had no idea who they were and was totally underwhelmed. Like I said, you're clearly better informed.

Who cares about fans taking notice? Do you think the manager and scouts' job is to "unearth gems" that the fans notice?

 

[Herschel Krustofsky]

According to Paul Hirst of the Times, he did, from the article dated September 21, 2021.

Paul Hirst:
"After weeks of trying, he would attempt one more time to persuade Ole Gunnar Solskjaer to let him leave on loan before the transfer window closed".

"Lingard’s representatives had held similar discussions with club officials earlier in the window, but even though their client had barely played, they were always met with the same response: Solskjaer wanted to keep the player for the rest of the season".

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...-or-break-manchester-uniteds-season-jv0p9pn6s

My Mrs says that she doesn’t mind that I’ve gotten fat of late.

It’s hardly her fault if I’m stupid enough to believe her

 

[Ali Dia]

Simon Stone confirmed the Adama fee is 35m EUR if its agreed to be permanent.
Brighton snubbed 10m for Burne to Newcastle and they might come back with a higher bid.

I'm sorry but if we live in the world where the above is true, we should charge more than a 12m survival fee. feck Newcastle and feck Jesse if they think it's too much. Madness.

Lingards camp probably see that as money out of their pocket, that’s all.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

The amount of leaks this guy is doing, also he hired Raiola while he was bad mouthing our club. I think it would be best to get Lingard out of here by any means necessary, even if we get ripped off. At the same time, I think he really
deserves to rot on the bench for the next 5 months. This is a win/win!

 

[romufc]

The amount of leaks this guy is doing, also he hired Raiola while he was bad mouthing our club. I think it would be best to get Lingard out of here by any means necessary, even if we get ripped off. At the same time, I think he really
deserves to rot on the bench for the next 5 months. This is a win/win!

The funny thing is he hired Raiola to get him a move, even Raiola couldn't get him a move, he had to get rid of him as well.

I think its a win win for the club, get a fee for loan is good or he leaves in the summer.

We should not loan him for free and help another club out for free.

 

[ManchesterManchester]

The funny thing is he hired Raiola to get him a move, even Raiola couldn't get him a move, he had to get rid of him as well.

I think its a win win for the club, get a fee for loan is good or he leaves in the summer.

We should not loan him for free and help another club out for free.

Yeah agree mate. I am really worried on the negative impact he has on others if he stays though. Obviously it’s just opinion but for example, I am sure this guy is a bad influence on Rashford. I have worked with people before who hate their job or are unhappy where they work and they eventually bring you down with them from the constant negativity.

 

[Mickeza]

The funny thing is he hired Raiola to get him a move, even Raiola couldn't get him a move, he had to get rid of him as well.

I think its a win win for the club, get a fee for loan is good or he leaves in the summer.

We should not loan him for free and help another club out for free.

I’m well up for helping out Burnley at the expense of Newcastle. Shame they can’t afford his wages.

 

[romufc]

I’m well up for helping out Burnley at the expense of Newcastle. Shame they can’t afford his wages.

Oh yes, If it was Burnley, I would send him for free down there. I doubt Lingard will go there though. He has this expectation that a top club will be in for him.

 

[unplayable]

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[romufc]

Yeah agree mate. I am really worried on the negative impact he has on others if he stays though. Obviously it’s just opinion but for example, I am sure this guy is a bad influence on Rashford. I have worked with people before who hate their job or are unhappy where they work and they eventually bring you down with them from the constant negativity.

Well I am sure if that will be the case, he will be removed from the group. I do worry for Rashford though, he needs to stop being influenced by Lingard. Concentrate on your own career.

 

[stevoc]

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If these reports are true (I could post more), then it looks like Solskjaer gave assurances of game time to a number of players, that never came to fruition. But imo, things started going wrong for him pretty early in the season, and when things started going wrong, he stuck to picking the same players who were letting him down without much rotation.

Diallo was pencilled in for a loan until he got injured. So he was never a option, Solskjaer considered.

That Solskjaer quote is from October, once Lingard didn't leave in the last summer window then of course the club would have wanted him to extend his contract to maximize his resale value. And Ole would have towed the company line publicly.

We can all post all the articles and tweets that we want but the facts are Solskjaer barely played him for 18 months and then loaned him out in the meantime amassing pretty stacked forward options arguably all better than Lingard. So to me this idea that Solskjaer didn't want to sell him and suddenly considered him an important part of the squad makes no sense. Personally I don't think Lingard wanted to move as he want's to run his contract down and his PR people have been pushing this ''promised games'' nonsense to journalists. Even now journalists seem to have daily updates form the Lingard camp.

 

[Grande]

Nowadays it feels like every single target we go after could've been identified by watching Match of the Day.

How much scouting goes into telling people Declan Rice and Jude Bellingham might be good players? Or that Jadon Sancho might be handy on the wing? Or that Kieran Trippier is a decent right back? It doesn't take a genius to know Rafa Varane and Cristiano Ronaldo might do well at Old Trafford.

What I'd like to see is another Chicharito. Someone who, maybe is known to scouts but I woudn't just know by watching BT Sport of Sky. Someone who comes in for less than £50m to £100m and absolutely smashes it.

We're constantly told we do extensive scouting e.g., 800 rightbacks to identify Wan-Bissaka. I'd quite like United to go and buy someone who is massively undervalued and give them the platform to succeed. A player I maybe don't know, haven't heard of and who doesn't cost a King's ransom.

I've got a lot of hope for Hannibal Mejbri. We went and found that kid and he looks like he's going to be the real deal. I wish we did more of that than just rolling a truckload of money in front of other Premier League teams.

Well, that’s just it: We have bought quite a few players who weren’t household knowledge these last years: Mejbri, as you mention, Diallo, Pellistri, James, Dalot, Bailly, Lindelöf, Fred and Telles (if Evra at Monaco and Vidic at Spartak is the bar). The question is morewho of them has played well enough and been part of a succesfull enough team to be considered gems.

It’s also easy to forget all the less profiled players bought under Fergie who didn’t set OT ablaze: Obertan, Büttner, Powell, Forlan, Prunier, DjembaDjemba, Kleberson, Alan Smith, a string of keepers, Henrique, Biram Diouf, Manucho, Fabio (as you also brought up), Bebe etc.

Trophies do affect narratives quite a lot.

 

[stevoc]

You’re spot on. It was very well documented at the time. Dunno why done think otherwise. Suppose it doesn’t fit whatever narrative they’ve chosen to believe.

I just wish they would find a compromise because i find the situation with some of the fans toxic. Better off elsewhere

What was very well documented? That Solskjaer promised Lingard loads of games?

 

[romufc]

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If these reports are true (I could post more), then it looks like Solskjaer gave assurances of game time to a number of players, that never came to fruition. But imo, things started going wrong for him pretty early in the season, and when things started going wrong, he stuck to picking the same players who were letting him down without much rotation.

Diallo was pencilled in for a loan until he got injured. So he was never a option, Solskjaer considered.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...alexis-sanchez-to-return-to-manchester-united

I dont get why everyone is getting so excited based on what Ole said in his press conferences.

He said that Alexis is going to come back and prove everyone wrong.

When you have a player like Bruno, who has saved your job, got CL qualification, the manager even after a bit of drop off will back the player.

Also, its not like there was a queue of clubs after Lingard in the summer, there was one club only. West Ham who offered £7m

 

[golden_blunder]

What was very well documented? That Solskjaer promised Lingard loads of games?

He promised him game time.
That obviously was a mistake, we should have sold him at his peak

 

[golden_blunder]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...alexis-sanchez-to-return-to-manchester-united

I dont get why everyone is getting so excited based on what Ole said in his press conferences.

He said that Alexis is going to come back and prove everyone wrong.

When you have a player like Bruno, who has saved your job, got CL qualification, the manager even after a bit of drop off will back the player.

Also, its not like there was a queue of clubs after Lingard in the summer, there was one club only. West Ham who offered £7m

They may have offered 7m but for sure they would have went higher. Their 2nd choice vlasic, they paid 25m for

 

[romufc]

They may have offered 7m but for sure they would have went higher. Their 2nd choice vlasic, they paid 25m for

That is my point, they paid £25m for an unproven player but it was also reported United dropped their price to £15m, they never came back. Its not up to United to ask them to make a bid. Its on West Ham to keep bidding.

Also, on another point, no manager promises players game time, I do not buy that. Ole said maybe he needs to give him more game time. However; he has 18 months of it and did nothing with it. Compare to the players playing, Rashford, Bruno, Greenwood who all delivered for Ole the season before.

 

[Gandalf]

He promised him game time.
That obviously was a mistake, we should have sold him at his peak

He gave him game time. I highly doubt specific number of appearances or minutes were mentioned and it is obvious to anyone who is a squad player that the amount of game time you will get is directly related to the fitness of the first team options in front of you. With Rashford out we could potentially have lost Bruno and Sancho to injury for example and then Jesse would almost certainly have started every game whilst they were out but it did not turn out that way and those are the breaks when you are a sub. Ole, like most managers, is going to look at potential worst case scenarios and want to have as many options as possible and this is where the club is at fault for not having the structure in place to determine it was not worth keeping Jesse. The one issue that lingered though was that other than Moyes off the record chat there seemed to be no serious interest from any club, let alone West Ham, so I am not sure he could have been sold anyway. The speed with which we cashed the cheque when Leeds came knocking for Dan James, an Ole favourite, shows that if there had been a genuine bid for Jesse he would not be here right now.

 

[romufc]

The speed with which we cashed the cheque when Leeds came knocking for Dan James, an Ole favourite, shows that if there had been a genuine bid for Jesse he would not be here right now.

People do not grasp this. Dan James was more regular than Lingard. The season before, I think Leeds were in for him too but the offer was low and we said no.

When a team wants a player, they go for him, £25m for James, United didn't think twice.

People keep mentioning west ham who offered £7m but can afford £25m for Vlasic.

With Lingard, fans think United should have done more to sell him, how does that work? its up to the buying club to negotiate not the selling club. Its like saying we wanted Sancho but bid £50m and it got rejected, its up to United to go back and put another bid. Not the other way around.

 

[Hansi Fick]

That Solskjaer quote is from October, once Lingard didn't leave in the last summer window then of course the club would have wanted him to extend his contract to maximize his resale value. And Ole would have towed the company line publicly.

That's just completely wrong on all levels, both from a human and a squad-building perspective.

 

[golden_blunder]

I don’t really want to get into a drawn out debate over it, so these are my main points

- we are where we are
- find a compromise and let him go. It suits no one if he’s still here till summer
- no need for petty insults of players. It’s becoming toxic
- United have a history of changing what we want at the last minute and always end up coming off worse for it. Just find the compromise and make it happen
-

 

[giorno]

When a team wants a player, they go for him, £25m for James, United didn't think twice.

People keep mentioning west ham who offered £7m but can afford £25m for Vlasic.

Vlasic is 5 years younger, and they couldn't sign him for free in a year's time. They can with Lingard. You priced him higher than it was worth for them to just wait.

At the end of the day, you have to assume the people in charge have a better understanding of the situation and know what they're doing. Even if it looks like they don't from the outside...

 

[romufc]

Vlasic is 5 years younger, and they couldn't sign him for free in a year's time. They can with Lingard. You priced him higher than it was worth for them to just wait.

At the end of the day, you have to assume the people in charge have a better understanding of the situation and know what they're doing. Even if it looks like they don't from the outside...

Eden Hazard was 29 when he signed for Real Madrid for £140m. Could have got him for free a year later.

Also, this so called "free" transfer is a myth, Lingard is not going to sign unless he gets that £5/10m signing on fee. There will be more competition for West Ham this year from the likes of Newcastle and secondly, they could have used him to push for CL because the guy who is 5 years younger hardly gets a game.

 

[Gandalf]

I don’t really want to get into a drawn out debate over it, so these are my main points

- we are where we are
- find a compromise and let him go. It suits no one if he’s still here till summer
- no need for petty insults of players. It’s becoming toxic
- United have a history of changing what we want at the last minute and always end up coming off worse for it. Just find the compromise and make it happen
-

I agree with this in principle with the caveat that I absolutely support charging Newcastle a premium, everybody else will so I don't think we should be the exception that decides to be charitable. If we were loaning him to Brighton I would be perfectly happy with his wages being paid and no loan fee but Newcastle are minted and if they can spend 25Million on a knackered carthorse like Wood then they cannot cry about being asked to pay up for a player like Jesse who for all his flaws is a far superior player.

 

[-Supreme-]

People do not grasp this. Dan James was more regular than Lingard. The season before, I think Leeds were in for him too but the offer was low and we said no.

When a team wants a player, they go for him, £25m for James, United didn't think twice.

People keep mentioning west ham who offered £7m but can afford £25m for Vlasic.

With Lingard, fans think United should have done more to sell him, how does that work? its up to the buying club to negotiate not the selling club. Its like saying we wanted Sancho but bid £50m and it got rejected, its up to United to go back and put another bid. Not the other way around.

Exatly. I have no doubt the same people will be complainng had we sold Lingard on for £7m when they are already challening for top 4 without his contributions this season, and we have seen the difference he made for West Ham already.

 

[giorno]

Eden Hazard was 29 when he signed for Real Madrid for £140m. Could have got him for free a year later.

Yes, a shining example of a club being smart in the market, that...

Also, this so called "free" transfer is a myth, Lingard is not going to sign unless he gets that £5/10m signing on fee.

And you think he wouldn't with a transfer fee? Why?

There will be more competition for West Ham this year from the likes of Newcastle and secondly, they could have used him to push for CL because the guy who is 5 years younger hardly gets a game.

Yeah, West Ham would go into the season thinking Jesse Lingard would be the differenxe between making top 4 in what looked like a stacked and locked group or not....

As for competition, sure. But it's jesse fecking lingard, not Kylian Mbappé. They'll be fine if he goes elsewhere

 

[romufc]

Yes, a shining example of a club being smart in the market, that...


And you think he wouldn't with a transfer fee? Why?

Yeah, West Ham would go into the season thinking Jesse Lingard would be the differenxe between making top 4 in what looked like a stacked and locked group or not....

As for competition, sure. But it's jesse fecking lingard, not Kylian Mbappé. They'll be fine if he goes elsewhere

So waiting a season really helped them Lingard? Instead of getting a player for £15m that could help the first team, evidence from last loan shows he can help them, they got a player on the bench for £25, plus having to spend again this summer to buy a player because Vlasic turned out to be crap.

So I am not fussed if we lost out on £7m, whilst Wesh Ham potentially more than £30m when they could have got a player for £15m.

 

[SirAF]

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Why would United help out a future rival? If anything they should refuse to deal with them, if Newcastle are relegated their future challenge is put off even longer.

 

[Kaos]

I want Jesse to bugger off as much as the next fan, but I actually like that we're setting a hardballing precedence here. Under Woodward and even Gill we've always been a soft selling club, letting players go for a pittance or favourable loan deals while seemingly allowing ourselves to get fleeced as buyers. Would be nice if we were the ones squeezing for once.

 

[100]

The disagreements on the Lingard situation are down to perspective. In isolation the tough stance is a respectable one, but the bigger picture shows these loan scenarios and bad squad management has been persisting for far too long. It's difficult to see this as not being more of the same.

 

[Born2Lose]

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It's not going to happen... but... it might happen, but if it doesn't then it won't.

 

[stevoc]

He promised him game time.
That obviously was a mistake, we should have sold him at his peak

Well it won't surprise you that I'm not convinced without direct quotes from either party on that one mate. To me it makes no sense, Solskjaer didn't want to play him for 18 months and kept signing better players that play in similar positions. So whatever Solskjaer did or didn't say in a private conversation that seems to be public knowledge on Redcafe his actions tell us he didn't see Lingard as part of his plans. Personally I don't think Lingard wanted to move to West Ham (or anywhere) and/or United scared them off with an inflated price tag and that's the main reason he stayed beyond the summer window.

 

[stevoc]

That's just completely wrong on all levels, both from a human and a squad-building perspective.

Perhaps but the Woodward regime have a history of doing just that. Most of the time it's blew up in their faces (Rojo, Jones etc.) but they keep on handing out contract extensions to preserve a players resale value.

 

[Member 101269]

You’re spot on. It was very well documented at the time. Dunno why done think otherwise. Suppose it doesn’t fit whatever narrative they’ve chosen to believe.

I just wish they would find a compromise because i find the situation with some of the fans toxic. Better off elsewhere

Whereas, it's understood he asked to go on loan. Which might indicate an unwillingness to sign and or commit to fighting for a place, but rather playing out time. For what end? There is no indication what important or playing time means. He's been played, at a base level any suggestion he would play has been fulfilled, the rest might be relative or in JLingz mind... I dont buy he was committed, there is no evidence to support that notion that i've seen. I'm happy to receive it if there is.

 

[Adnan]

That Solskjaer quote is from October, once Lingard didn't leave in the last summer window then of course the club would have wanted him to extend his contract to maximize his resale value. And Ole would have towed the company line publicly.

We can all post all the articles and tweets that we want but the facts are Solskjaer barely played him for 18 months and then loaned him out in the meantime amassing pretty stacked forward options arguably all better than Lingard. So to me this idea that Solskjaer didn't want to sell him and suddenly considered him an important part of the squad makes no sense. Personally I don't think Lingard wanted to move as he want's to run his contract down and his PR people have been pushing this ''promised games'' nonsense to journalists. Even now journalists seem to have daily updates form the Lingard camp.

You're making assumptions to prolong your argument here. Players don't generally stay at clubs unless the first team Manager gives them assurances of game time. And in this case, it was widely reported that Solskjaer wanted to go into the new season with a big squad, hence the likes of Van de Beek, Lingard, Bailly were reportedly given assurances of minutes. Journos like Paul Hirst even questioned the wisdom of Solskjaer and his insistence on going into the new season with a big squad.

And I haven't said Solskjaer considered him a important part of his squad, but he was rather considered part of the squad, as back up player in a team that was going into the new season looking to adopt a high pressing game style which requires back up players with Lingard's profile. But sadly for us and Solskjaer, he got this badly wrong, and carried on playing the under performing players, without much rotation, which had become pretty normal for him in his last 18 months at the club.

Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. And in this case, it was clear to me at least, that Solskjaer's inexperience as both coach and squad builder at this level was for all to see. He got the job due to Fergie, and did a decent job for a while. Buy when it came to transitioning from a low-mid block team to a proactive high pressing team , he struggled to find the balance and was correctly dismissed.

 

[Adnan]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...alexis-sanchez-to-return-to-manchester-united

I dont get why everyone is getting so excited based on what Ole said in his press conferences.

He said that Alexis is going to come back and prove everyone wrong.

When you have a player like Bruno, who has saved your job, got CL qualification, the manager even after a bit of drop off will back the player.

Also, its not like there was a queue of clubs after Lingard in the summer, there was one club only. West Ham who offered £7m

He was absolutely right in backing Sanchez in that scenario, especially in public. Sanchez was on huge money with a number of years still left on his contract and reportedly hadn't meshed well with the playing squad.

Lingard was a different scenario and isn't comparable to Sanchez. Solskjaer molly-coddled quite a few players and Lingard according to reports was one of those players.

 

[Leftback99]

Obviously Solskjaer didn't see him as important because he barely played him in the last 18 months regardless of what he was saying in public.

I don't think Lingard had any other plan than leaving on a free and picking up a big signing on fee/contract in the summer. Fair play to him, I'd have probably done the same.

If all these players really thought they were going to get a lot of game time this season they need new agents that can do some basic division.

 

[ehsanul]

Lingard was dumb to think he will get more chances even after we signed some more players in his position.