Joao Felix / on loan to Chelsea

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Chief123

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Messier1994 said:
Honestly, I have been thinking about this, if we buy Joao Felix -- I don't think we are buying him as a striker. I think we are buying him as a midfielder (long term at least), and not even for Bruno's role, but more as a FDJ type/No 8. Eriksson's role. Our De Bruyne.

And I mean, its only when you look at his potential value in that role -- that any kind of higher valuation starts to make sense for him. Like sure, as a shadow no 9 for us, he would create some magic. Him dropping down, Rashford and Bruno taking runs, a YT collection of his top plays for us in the spring of 23' wouldn't be just 40 sec long. But -- there is so much you do not get from him as a Sh-9, right? The PL is an unforgiving league. There will be so many times some mid table team just takes it to us and we scramble to get the ball up to a striker who is just manhandled by the defense most of the time. You don't get much presence in the box. Just look at his stats for Athletico, he doesn't score on will. He has played plenty for them and the 7-8 worst team's in La Liga are much weaker than in the PL. AtM isn't a 40% possession team against Elche and the likes. Over the course of a season, if you play Felix as your striker, you would surely get 4-5 wondrous really important goals scored and manufactured by him -- but you would probably not get 15 in total.

But if you instead ask yourself, what could Joao Felix become in the Kevin de Bruyne role, is the potential there? I mean, its as simple as, its with his ball on his feet looking up field with people taking runs in front of him, his biggest strength lies. Almost every time I have seen him play in Spain, its there he excels. He is underwhelming up front. I think many would be surprised how little he does for AtM in some games over 90 minutes against a pretty poor opponent. But its in like these situations where he stands out, and where you want him:

I have changed my mind a bit thinking it through the last days, assuming that ETH really likes him, that the reports are true, what am I missing, could he have value I didn't see before? And its as a midfielder I see that value. Now I have gone from 'sure I take him, but sticking a value tag to him above 50m is ridiculous, its like Chelsea asking for 100m for Kepa', to can you get it done for 80m -- do it.

This year he would come to us, be eased in, play some as a Shadow 9, some in Bruno's role, some on the wings. Let him learn ETH's system. But start to ease him in to Eriksen's role. Then from the start of next season -- he is the starting MF with Casemiro and Bruno. Eriksen is the rotation player. I love Eriksen. But counting on him to be an insane workhorse for us carries us 50 games a season is insane. Many had questions about his durability 3-4 years ago, for good reasons.
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Not a chance we are signing him as a midfielder.
 

Klean

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Messier1994 said:
Honestly, I have been thinking about this, if we buy Joao Felix -- I don't think we are buying him as a striker. I think we are buying him as a midfielder (long term at least), and not even for Bruno's role, but more as a FDJ type/No 8. Eriksson's role. Our De Bruyne.

And I mean, its only when you look at his potential value in that role -- that any kind of higher valuation starts to make sense for him. Like sure, as a shadow no 9 for us, he would create some magic. Him dropping down, Rashford and Bruno taking runs, a YT collection of his top plays for us in the spring of 23' wouldn't be just 40 sec long. But -- there is so much you do not get from him as a Sh-9, right? The PL is an unforgiving league. There will be so many times some mid table team just takes it to us and we scramble to get the ball up to a striker who is just manhandled by the defense most of the time. You don't get much presence in the box. Just look at his stats for Athletico, he doesn't score on will. He has played plenty for them and the 7-8 worst team's in La Liga are much weaker than in the PL. AtM isn't a 40% possession team against Elche and the likes. Over the course of a season, if you play Felix as your striker, you would surely get 4-5 wondrous really important goals scored and manufactured by him -- but you would probably not get 15 in total.

But if you instead ask yourself, what could Joao Felix become in the Kevin de Bruyne role, is the potential there? I mean, its as simple as, its with his ball on his feet looking up field with people taking runs in front of him, his biggest strength lies. Almost every time I have seen him play in Spain, its there he excels. He is underwhelming up front. I think many would be surprised how little he does for AtM in some games over 90 minutes against a pretty poor opponent. But its in like these situations where he stands out, and where you want him:

I have changed my mind a bit thinking it through the last days, assuming that ETH really likes him, that the reports are true, what am I missing, could he have value I didn't see before? And its as a midfielder I see that value. Now I have gone from 'sure I take him, but sticking a value tag to him above 50m is ridiculous, its like Chelsea asking for 100m for Kepa', to can you get it done for 80m -- do it.

This year he would come to us, be eased in, play some as a Shadow 9, some in Bruno's role, some on the wings. Let him learn ETH's system. But start to ease him in to Eriksen's role. Then from the start of next season -- he is the starting MF with Casemiro and Bruno. Eriksen is the rotation player. I love Eriksen. But counting on him to be an insane workhorse for us carries us 50 games a season is insane. Many had questions about his durability 3-4 years ago, for good reasons.
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Occasionally I find posts on this website that I think about longer than when I browse it on my lunch break. This is one of those posts. After reading it and thinking about it, I'm also on board with the idea. I think that the missing ingredient in the ball carrier that FDJ is (which I why I wanted him over the summer). Felix would be a similar profile player from a skillset but could also be coached and molded into a real finished product. I think that it's a smart move that makes the most of a player's strength.

Great post and Idea. Probably not feasible but at least it gives us good discussion.
 

Messier1994

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Chief123 said:
Not a chance we are signing him as a midfielder.
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ETH have played with Eriksen as a striker this season when he did not have any alternatives, so he would of course use Joao Felix there if needed.

But his potential as a striker is limited, however at midfield it is unlimited from my POV. I also wouldn't at all be surprised if ETH also sees Felix as a CM/AMC long term. Felix is a fairly versatile player. Simone has had him working as a right back. He would never ever be a big hit as a lone striker for a Premier League team. Why would we spend that kind of money for him it we only intended to use him in a role in which his potential is limited? (from my POV, others can of course disagree)
 

Chief123

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Messier1994 said:
ETH have played with Eriksen as a striker this season when he did not have any alternatives, so he would of course use Joao Felix there if needed.

But his potential as a striker is limited, however at midfield it is unlimited from my POV. I also wouldn't at all be surprised if ETH also sees Felix as a CM/AMC long term. Felix is a fairly versatile player. Simone has had him working as a right back. He would never ever be a big hit as a lone striker for a Premier League team. Why would we spend that kind of money for him it we only intended to use him in a role in which his potential is limited? (from my POV, others can of course disagree)
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ETH played with Eriksen as a striker once in the first game of the season. It failed badly. It changed second half. It Didn’t happen again. Terrible example.

Buying Felix to play as a box to box midfielder is as fairy land story as previous suggestions we’ve had of AWB being a centre back, Sancho being a no.10, Lindelof being a CDM, Martinez being a CDM. This obsession of shoe horning players into positions they never play is fascinating.

I see Felix offering much more value as a striker than a midfielder. He can play a false 9 or a similar role to Firmino where he links the wingers and midfield. No worries about him performing that role at all. This myth of premier league being too tough for foreign players isn’t true. He’s better than most players who play in the prem.
 

phelans shorts

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Messier1994 said:
ETH have played with Eriksen as a striker this season when he did not have any alternatives, so he would of course use Joao Felix there if needed.

But his potential as a striker is limited, however at midfield it is unlimited from my POV. I also wouldn't at all be surprised if ETH also sees Felix as a CM/AMC long term. Felix is a fairly versatile player. Simone has had him working as a right back. He would never ever be a big hit as a lone striker for a Premier League team. Why would we spend that kind of money for him it we only intended to use him in a role in which his potential is limited?
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I think you’re pigeon holing a bit too much here. Just look at how we’ve played with Martial this season, it’s far from a typical striker role and that’s likely to be closer to what a Felix would play (Felix is also deceptively tall, can definitely be a body in the box when necessary) with bringing the wide men into it for goalscoring
 

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phelans shorts said:
I think you’re pigeon holing a bit too much here. Just look at how we’ve played with Martial this season, it’s far from a typical striker role and that’s likely to be closer to what a Felix would play (Felix is also deceptively tall, can definitely be a body in the box when necessary) with bringing the wide men into it for goalscoring
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I have realised that people haven't noticed that stylistically he is close to martial. EtH seems to like strikers that are heavily involved in the build up face.
 

BuzzKillington

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Messier1994 said:
ETH have played with Eriksen as a striker this season when he did not have any alternatives, so he would of course use Joao Felix there if needed.

But his potential as a striker is limited, however at midfield it is unlimited from my POV. I also wouldn't at all be surprised if ETH also sees Felix as a CM/AMC long term. Felix is a fairly versatile player. Simone has had him working as a right back. He would never ever be a big hit as a lone striker for a Premier League team. Why would we spend that kind of money for him it we only intended to use him in a role in which his potential is limited? (from my POV, others can of course disagree)
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If he doesn’t do enough defensive work as a forward in Spain, what makes you think playing him in a midfield role in the premier league is going to work? You compared him to De Bruyne in an earlier post, but De Bruyne puts a shift in every game, Felix does not. That would never work in a team that presses. I’d argue he wouldn’t even work as a striker for us for the same reason, along with the fact he doesn’t score anywhere near enough. He’s a super talented player and will be brilliant for somebody, but he’s a poor match for what we want. If simeone can’t get him working his arse off and pressing, I have serious doubts EtH would be able to.
 

Messier1994

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phelans shorts said:
I think you’re pigeon holing a bit too much here. Just look at how we’ve played with Martial this season, it’s far from a typical striker role and that’s likely to be closer to what a Felix would play (Felix is also deceptively tall, can definitely be a body in the box when necessary) with bringing the wide men into it for goalscoring
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Fair point.

Admittedly, I think I am coming from a position where I’ve most recently seen Felix play a few games for Athletico as a striker/second striker in which he really did not show a good side of himself (before the WC). But things are never black and white, when watching those games I’ve also asked myself, how much of that is him being disappointed with Simeone? Lack of confidence and what not.

With that said — for many obvious reasons — it is hard to see Joao Felix coming here and be a smashing success as the lone striker, right? Especially given how punishing the PL is for a lone striker. And if that is the case, ie the upside is limited at least to a degree, you don’t buy him for the money he would cost.

Meanwhile in like a KDB role, I just think his potential is ‘unlimited’.


BuzzKillington said:
If he doesn’t do enough defensive work as a forward in Spain, what makes you think playing him in a midfield role in the premier league is going to work? You compared him to De Bruyne in an earlier post, but De Bruyne puts a shift in every game, Felix does not. That would never work in a team that presses. I’d argue he wouldn’t even work as a striker for us for the same reason, along with the fact he doesn’t score anywhere near enough. He’s a super talented player and will be brilliant for somebody, but he’s a poor match for what we want. If simeone can’t get him working his arse off and pressing, I have serious doubts EtH would be able to.
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Fair question, but I actually don’t have a problem with his pressing. I don’t have a problem with his defensive play. He isn’t horrible there. Simeone has issues with him, but he has also worked hard to adopt to Simeone and have often gotten a lot of praise from Simeone. I think he is soft, but not lazy.

But he will want the ball. He will not want to play 30 minute stretches here and there without it. I think that is the biggest issue for Felix/Simeone/AtM. Felix just don’t have the ball much. When he gets it, he is often pressured hard and don’t have a lot of support. Griezman just keep going in that role, Felix get frustrated.

And it’s not only for us, I think for a vast vast majority of teams in the top league in Europe — he wouldn’t be used as the lone striker or as a 2nd striker. He would be used on the wing or CM.
 
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Pronewbie

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Instead of Gakpo I wonder if ETH will make a move for him to play on the left sided half space, which is where he typically operates. We just seem well-stocked in the positions he excels (LW, AM).
 

Klean

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BuzzKillington said:
If he doesn’t do enough defensive work as a forward in Spain, what makes you think playing him in a midfield role in the premier league is going to work? You compared him to De Bruyne in an earlier post, but De Bruyne puts a shift in every game, Felix does not. That would never work in a team that presses. I’d argue he wouldn’t even work as a striker for us for the same reason, along with the fact he doesn’t score anywhere near enough. He’s a super talented player and will be brilliant for somebody, but he’s a poor match for what we want. If simeone can’t get him working his arse off and pressing, I have serious doubts EtH would be able to.
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Defensive Actions are closer than you think. Per fbref

Tackles + Interceptions
Felix - 1.24 per 90
de Bruyne - 1.37

Ariel Duels Won
Felix - 1.19 per 90
de Bruyne - 0.42

Ariel Duals Lost
Felix - 1.61 per 90
de Bruyne - 0.65

I'm not sure the notion that de Bruyne is a better defensive player is supported by the underlying data.
 

BuzzKillington

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Klean said:
Defensive Actions are closer than you think. Per fbref

Tackles + Interceptions
Felix - 1.24 per 90
de Bruyne - 1.37

Ariel Duels Won
Felix - 1.19 per 90
de Bruyne - 0.42

Ariel Duals Lost
Felix - 1.61 per 90
de Bruyne - 0.65

I'm not sure the notion that de Bruyne is a better defensive player is supported by the underlying data.
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Fair enough.
 

Wezzaldo

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Would rather this lad that replaced Ronaldo. Gonçalo Ramos, looks perfect for EtH football.
 

Idxomer

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He took over in this game.

The most enjoyable performance in this World Cup from any player.
 

sullydnl

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Klean said:
Defensive Actions are closer than you think. Per fbref

Tackles + Interceptions
Felix - 1.24 per 90
de Bruyne - 1.37

Ariel Duels Won
Felix - 1.19 per 90
de Bruyne - 0.42

Ariel Duals Lost
Felix - 1.61 per 90
de Bruyne - 0.65

I'm not sure the notion that de Bruyne is a better defensive player is supported by the underlying data.
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A player in a team who average 50% possession will typically have more opportunity to generate pure defensive stats like tackles/interceptions compared to a player in a team with 66% possession. It wouldn't mean he's actually better or even as good defensively though.

There's a reason City as a team rank bottom in the PL for tackles/interceptions while Atletico rank 2nd in La Liga. And it isn't because all the Atletico players are way better defensively.
 

Chief123

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After seeing him making that FDJ type run from midfield then, I just remembered @Messier1994 ’s post :lol:

Fair play it was a nice midfield run, but I’d be shocked if we signed him for big money to then deploy him as a midfielder. He seems much better suited to being a forward that joins the midfield.
 

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Sign him Ten Hag. Make him false 9 and have him drop and link up with Bruno, Rashford to be that guy running in behind out wide. Hell, seeing Rashford for England... Use Martial as the 9, Felix left, Bruno 10 and Rashford on the right!
 

Tony247

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We need a target man, a DLP and backup RB. Felix unfortunately doesn't fit as a CF or as DLP. He can be used as AM along side Bruno though. But we already have Eriksen.
 

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He just made Frankie-like run to carry the ball from deep to the upper third.
 

sullydnl

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Not the most obvious fit for our needs but then neither is someone like Gakpo. No idea what ETH wants to do but if it included Felix it would be fun. Probably won't though.
 

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This is the most reactionary forum I’ve been on :lol: Doesn’t take much for you lot, does it?
 

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He could play false 9 if we go with Rash/Martial, alternating with Bruno/Antony as a floating 10 with counter-pressing responsibilities. It might seem slightly untidy formation, but I think ETH could make it work for certain games.

I wouldn't risk full transfer fee on securing him at this stage though, especially pre-takeover and with other needs...maybe covering his wages and another 5m loan fee might do it.
 

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RG77 said:
This is the most reactionary forum I’ve been on :lol: Doesn’t take much for you lot, does it?
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Felix is the greatest player to have every graced this game

What have you got to say about that my man?
 

2cents

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Judas said:
It is incredible how much the opinions of players sways from game to game. So very predictable.
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It’s a forum with thousands of members posting different opinions, RedCafe doesn’t speak with one voice.
 

Coops73

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Looking mustard right now, clearly a talent but not sure where he fits in at United right now, but what do I know.
 
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