I think this is an excellent post and so informative for someone like me who hasn't watched much of Neves outside of his Portugal run-outs and highlight reels.
But my question is: if you have to consider in this much detail to make the argument that he is defensively solid enough to make a partnership with Mainoo, surely it is too much of a risk at £80m+. That is the kind of money you should only ever spend on an absolute square-peg-square-hole superstar. Even if everything you say is absolutely right - and I have no reason to suggest otherwise - it's a concerning amount of strategic gymnastics. Your post pitching for an £80m+ player should just need to say 'He's obviously a perfect signing for what we need' and expect most people to just agree.
Personally I think our last ten years of signings are irrefutable evidence that signings at the top end of the market are just not good business or a good footballing strategy for any team not well established at the very top of the game, or at least their league. City, Real, maybe Bayern. We shouldn't be doing them at all. Because no signing is actually ever a sure thing, except in a team which could basically guarantee success even without that signing. At a team in our situation, where theoretically anyone could struggle, they're a terrible idea.
So much as I think Neves is a wonderful player who I'd love to watch in a United shirt, and your argument in favour is very compelling, I can't see this as a good signing for us.
I'm actually not particularly advocating his signing, and was weighing in more on how to best use him in conjunction with Mainoo if he was in the squad. Both players invite questions and obviously Mainoo will be an integral part of what everyone is envisioning our future midfield to be - so unfortunately I don't think you are going to get unanimous calls for a particular player or exact type of player to line up alongside him.
Keeping it simple, buy a defensive midfielder. Kobbie is pure silk - compliment him with grit. Aggression, tenacity, physical power. And he's an 8, so pair him with a 6.
To me he is a player like Verratti. Or even Gavi. And Mainoo is not dissimilar to Pedri, who is not a 10, but he’s like a 10-leaning 8.
I wouldn’t expect to see Gavi and Pedri in a double pivot. You want both of them roaming, and I think Gavi and Pedri with a 6 is a very balanced midfield and don’t see why Mainoo, Neves and say Wharton couldn’t be of that sort of standard.
Neves has some similarities with Verratti, I would agree. Herrera is quite a good stylistic comparison I feel. I see Mainoo differently to you though - as a deeper 8 or 6-leaning 8 if you will. Like Xavi. So I wouldn't equate a midfield consisting of Mainoo, Neves and a holding player to the balanced looking Pedri/ Gavi/ 6 - for me, it would be like having Xavi or Thiago Alcantara in place of Pedri. You would have a unit consisting entirely of players who want to be, and excel as, deep-lying midfielders, and either one of the two 8s would have to play sub-optimally by looking to occupy and work in more advanced areas between the lines in order to maintain balance, or the impact of all three would be blunted with them all stepping on each other's toes in the same area.
Using Neves as a 6 would be like using Herrera there - which did work, with him forming a successful partnership with Pogba. And there are examples of players operating in the 6 position and still being all-action and able to express themselves and get involved all over the pitch - Keane, Schweinsteiger, Enzo Fernandes, Kimmich, De Jong and maybe even (though perhaps not their best iteration) Fernandinho, Yaya Toure and Gundogan all come to mind.
No it isn't odd at all. I never said that the top teams would all employ tall defensive specialist who excel in nothing but defensive aspects. What I am saying is that this defensive aspects are their strength, the capabilities are there but their "absolute top player" reputation is created because they are able to offer even more. Busquets and Carrick weren't weak at all and they were very difficult to get dribbled past. Same for Casemiro, Fabinho, J. Martinez and Rodri.
Even if Neves had that trait as well - it still wouldn't change the fact that the most successful teams in the more recent past have made use of defensive specialist that were tall. Not JUST because they were tall. Not JUST because they were defensive specialist. But those factors were there. You can argue towards those traits not being as important, thats fine, but you can't argue, that they weren't there.
Edit: About the rest of your post: What would you say is the most "shining" aspect of Neves? You say he is very good on and off the ball, what is where he excels the most in your opinion?
I think Neves shines most on the ball. Not really sure why your asking - is he not allowed to be good both on and off the ball? Only the players you've cherry-picked are? I'm obviously not going to argue Busquets isn't tall. He's not a physical player at all though, and when you are talking about ball-winning capacity and winning headers against West Ham, he is a poor example or benchmark.
No, a player by extension isn't the holding midfielder if he's the first receiver in midfield. That used to be the case with teams in the past but with the evolution of positional play and it becoming more mainstream, the first receiver isn't necessarily utilised as the holding midfielder and coaches now invert players to come in-field to maintain balance and have allowed players like Joao Neves or even Kokcu to have greater influence on the play in all phases of play. Kokcu at Feyenoord under Arne Slot was utilised the same way where he was the first receiver in the build up phase and was then allowed the creative freedom in all phases of play. The holding midfielder was Mats Wieffer with Lutsharel Geertruida inverting from fullback to maintain the defensive balance in rest defense after Kokcu had vacated his position from a deeper midfield role. Kokcu was heavily relied upon in the build up phase but he wasn't relied upon in rest defense against the opponent's transition which was was normal because he was given a lot of freedom to roam like how Neves is being utilised at Benfica. Also you have to take into consideration that Benfica is among the very best teams in the league where they're going to be dominant in all of phases of play when they play anyone outside of Porto and SCP.
So because a midfielder is the first receiver in the build up phase that doesn't mean he is also part of the rest defense strategy to thwart the opponent's transitions.. Of course everyone will have to play their part, but as I outlined above using Feyenoord as a example, they controlled the central area in midfield with Mats Wieffer playing the disciplined holding role with the fullback taking up Kokcu's position once the ball was progressed through the thirds via the build up phase. Joao Neves is someone who is adept at applying the press and receiving passes between the lines, it would be a waste of his talents to try and utilise him in a way that won't get the best out of him. You buy Neves with a player like Varela or Wieffer which then creates a balance in the midfield and gives the more creative roaming type midfielders like Mainoo and Neves the freedom to play their natural game. And it also gives the coach more options having a holding midfielder which would then allow for players to possibly come in-field with him from the first line to maintain balance and provide a strong platform for the midfield and forwards to thrive.
The EPL for me is far stronger than the Portuguese league, and you will be severely tested in transition if the aim is to play a more expansive game in a higher defensive line.
I think I've said enough on this subject, so unless someone provides something new, I'm going to step-away for now because I don't think there's anything more to say.
Fair enough. I pretty much completely disagree and your descriptions of these players and teams doesn't match what I have observed.
