John Murtough Sack Watch

Castia

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I honestly find it hard to really have a go at John Murtough. Imagine you are tasked with a job, but your bosses tie one hand behind your back, put a blindfold over your eyes and completely hamstring you, not to mention every decision you make they want to micromanage (which is what Joel Glazer does.)

How do you honestly expect anyone to work in that environment with any kind of normalcy. It's all the same mistakes over and over again since the Glazers started, Murtough is a person in a long list of people that are also victims of these parasites. Granted maybe the Glazers sell and Murtough is proven to be crap or chucked out, fair enough, I just cannot get on board with slagging off all these staff members when the common denominator throughout every shit transfer window - ever since they arrived - is the Glazers.
Love or hate the Glazers and I think they’re parasites but they have put money forward for players, we’ve blown through a billion quid on absolute shite and that’s down to these clowns running the club on a daily basis

Biggest mistake the Glazers made was not clearing out the directors 12 months after SAF and Gill left when it was obviously clear the club was being run by morons

The Antony deal was the best, 90m quid for a player Ajax would happily have sold for 60m if we bid in June rather than after the season started. It’s a farce, former Coventry City sports scientist running one of the biggest clubs in sport? The lot of them need replacing
 
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AneRu

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Every single point you made was either to do with the previous regime or was knock on effect from that regime. You also mentioned not signing a CDM for Rangnick as a issue when no sensible club would sign a player for a placeholder.
Sorry but this is nonsense, a good player is a good player regardless of who recommended them. Would you have preferred that we ignored Alvarez because he was wanted by Rangnick and proceeded to, say, sign Mame Biram Diouf because our permanent manager wanted him in?

That lack of nous to identify and act on opportunities is why we are lagging behind. Remember how we missed out on Haaland and others? It's because we lack agility at the upper echelons.

Rangnick was no ordinary placeholder, he helped build the RB group doing the exact thing we have failed to do - proper recruitment for the first team at bargain prices. So yeah his managerial tenure was shit but that in no way takes away what he has achieved in top level football over the last fifteen years. When he spoke jokers like Murtough, Arnold and the Glazers should have not only listened but taken notes because surprise, surprise, a year after jettisoning him we have made the same blunders that we made for the last ten years.
 

Adnan

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Okay :lol: no accountability for Murtough up until post summer 2023 even though he was hired as DoF in March 2021. Good one.

It wasn’t about signing a CDM for Rangnick, it’s about signing one for the club to give us the best possible chance of winning, permanently or on loan.
It should actually be about signing a player that is in-sync with the mid to long-term strategy which revolves around who will be hired to execute said strategy. When Liverpool hired Klopp in October 2015, they didn't panic and sign players in January to supposedly save their season in the short-term but rather they played the long game and signed players the following summer but ended up finishing 8th.

If you can tell me how a DoF structure functions and how it is structured then it'll be very clear to you that the actual structure was not in place in 2021 due to that structure being one that was created by Ed Woodward. And it would've been foolish of me to judge Murtough on the decisions made by Jim Lawlor (at the club since 2005) and Marcel Bout (Van Gaal's backroom staff) who were in charge of recruitment at first team level. With Phelan and Solskjaer setting the directive on the football side of the club.


Isn't this something a structure is actually supposed to address, though? That you sign players that your recruitment staff say are good and fit the type of football you want to play, not just players tied to a manager?
That's what a football structure is created for but that football structure was not in place at the time and was instead made up of people that were from the previous regime. This is what most people don't understand and naively believe a DoF goes around identifying players on his own without having a support structure In place. And once he has the support structure in place he will be judged but I'm not going to judge him on the decisions made by the likes of Woodward, Judge, Bout, Lawlor and the various managers hired by Woodward.

Why would a signing have to be for a manager specifically though? If it's a structural issue within the squad, it needs to be fixed regardless.
Signings should be made with a strategy in mind and that strategy heavily revolves around who the head coach will be. And all the supposedly well run clubs who have a defined way of playing the game have centred their recruitment around a specific way of playing the game. At Barcelona it was around the methods of Cruyff and at Brighton it was around the positional play methods of Potter and now De Zerbi.
This makes zero sense, the whole point of having a DOF and a structure is that you sign players for the club and not the current manager
The whole point of having a DoF is for him to set a strategy and create a structure that will create continuity and align all the football departments where they're working in tandem with each other towards a common goal. But you have to allow him to create the structure and then give that structure sometime so we can judge their work. And the new structure has just recently completed a year in their new roles with Matt Hargreaves only taking up his role as the chief negotiator in June this year.

And like I've said in one of my previous posts, someone please tell me who you want as DoF and how they have structured their club on the recruitment side of the club and how that has impressed you. Because my opinion is that under a different ownership it doesn't really matter who the DoF is.
 

Herschel Krustofsky

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I honestly find it hard to really have a go at John Murtough. Imagine you are tasked with a job, but your bosses tie one hand behind your back, put a blindfold over your eyes and completely hamstring you, not to mention every decision you make they want to micromanage (which is what Joel Glazer does.)

How do you honestly expect anyone to work in that environment with any kind of normalcy. It's all the same mistakes over and over again since the Glazers started, Murtough is a person in a long list of people that are also victims of these parasites. Granted maybe the Glazers sell and Murtough is proven to be crap or chucked out, fair enough, I just cannot get on board with slagging off all these staff members when the common denominator throughout every shit transfer window - ever since they arrived - is the Glazers.
All well and good, but we need a Spacegoat right now
 

Ubik

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*snip*
That's what a football structure is created for but that football structure was not in place at the time and was instead made up of people that were from the previous regime. This is what most people don't understand and naively believe a DoF goes around identifying players on his own without having a support structure In place. And once he has the support structure in place he will be judged but I'm not going to judge him on the decisions made by the likes of Woodward, Judge, Bout, Lawlor and the various managers hired by Woodward.
*snip*
Okay, I thought you meant in general and yes, I can see that in terms of our own case. It's a shame that the following summer seems to have just been as poor as before, structure-wise, just going after obvious oldies like Casemiro and a bunch of ten Hag's favourites.
 

luke511

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It should actually be about signing a player that is in-sync with the mid to long-term strategy which revolves around who will be hired to execute said strategy. When Liverpool hired Klopp in October 2015, they didn't panic and sign players in January to supposedly save their season in the short-term but rather they played the long game and signed players the following summer but ended up finishing 8th.

If you can tell me how a DoF structure functions and how it is structured then it'll be very clear to you that the actual structure was not in place in 2021 due to that structure being one that was created by Ed Woodward. And it would've been foolish of me to judge Murtough on the decisions made by Jim Lawlor (at the club since 2005) and Marcel Bout (Van Gaal's backroom staff) who were in charge of recruitment at first team level. With Phelan and Solskjaer setting the directive on the football side of the club.
Okay that covers 2021, what about 2022 and 2023? Are they to blame for the mistakes made then too?
 

luke511

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The revisionism of the Sancho transfer is hilarious, this transfer was backed by nearly every poster on this forum, there were not many dissenting voices at the time
Almost everyone wanted him coming out of his best season in 2020, then we signed Amad and Pellistri with Greenwood becoming our starting right winger, all whilst Sancho took his foot off the gas a bit at Dortmund and we had a big hole in midfield that needed filling, the transfer made less sense than it did a season prior. There were a group of fans that were wary about us not being able to sign a CDM because of this, and it turned out to be the case.
 

RedDevil@84

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I don’t actually have much of a problem with transfers like Sancho to be honest. He was hot property in Germany and looked like one of the brightest young talents in Europe, not signing him because we have Amad and Pellistri who are still years away from being ready seems far fetched. Greenwood was a valid point though, that spot should have been his, however I can still get behind an idea of signing a young, talented English player that succeeded greatly in another league. He has been mismanaged and hasn’t done himself any favors since coming here but the concept was not incorrect.
The part that I do not understand was we needed an RW (for years) and we searched and searched and somehow decided on Sancho and then we paid silly money and silly salary for the kid and there were big discussion on forums regarding this big talent who will be our winger for years...
And then he comes in and almost immediately talks about his love for LW and suddenly he is another LW. We never needed such a big signing for the left side.
 

Tango80

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People fail to understand what a DoF actually does. Helping sign the players is a small, tiny part.

I don't know how well he's doing. He's only really been doing the job proper since Woodward' left. Realistically, you're looking at 3-5 years until you can make a realistic judgement.
 

RedDevil@84

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Biggest mistake the Glazers made was not clearing out the directors 12 months after SAF and Gill left when it was obviously clear the club was being run by morons
It was not a mistake. It was by design. They wanted Woodward there because he could get lots of money to the club. And they believed whatever money they were blowing on the transfers and managers was worth what Woodward brings.
 

golden_blunder

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It’s the truth. There’s a reason top clubs sign players when they’re at the top of their game, and stay away from out of form players. That’s not even factoring in him having a year left on his contract, It’s terrible value for money. Compounded on top of that is he’s being played out of position whilst we have Bruno as a 10. It’s an awful fit for our midfield and a bad transfer all round given the context. We went through this in the summer but the penny hasn’t dropped it seems.
It’s still a very negative way to look at things

the lad needs more than 2 games ffs before he’s written off
 

Revan

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Quite simply there are no consistent DoFs, or very few out there who get decision after decision correct. I would love to hear the suggestions too.

unfortunately I think people won’t realise that the grass isn’t any greener until JM is gone and replaced by someone else
DoFs can be hit and miss, that is true. In fact, good DoFs in one club, can be bad DoFs in some other club (same as any managerial position).

The issue, however, is that out DoF is not behaving like a DoF. He is essentially signing players that the manager wants, instead of signing players that the manager has to utilize. Out of 14 players we have signed or loaned in ETH regime, 4 have played in the past for ETH, 2 others are Dutch, and another one has played in Dutch league. That is far too many, and it essentially means that DoF is not behaving like DoF but is just saying Amen to manager. Which has been our issue all along, the manager signing player and then the next manager wanting their own player.

For comparison, Pep only signed one player he managed at Barca in Bayern, and no one at City. Klopp didn’t bring anyone from Dortmund (or from his time in Germany) at Liverpool. Ancelotti never signed his previous players. It is what big clubs do, they sign players and ask the manager to deal with those players.

So while you are right that the grass is not always greener, and the next DoF might not be that good too, the main issue is that our current DoF is more behaving like manager’s cheerleader rather than a real DoF.
 
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Andycoleno9

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The revisionism of the Sancho transfer is hilarious, this transfer was backed by nearly every poster on this forum, there were not many dissenting voices at the time
9/10 of our transfers are backed by fans. Every new player is great when we sign him. Sabitzer was great, Ambrabat is already great, Schneiderlin was great, Depay was new world class, even Ighalo and Wout were "good short term" signings at that moment. Fans just want new names. After nearly every window we had a thread; "Best transfer window ever".

That is why you have DoF. Who is payed to make right (objective) decisions. We will see Sancho on TV and say "wow, we must sign him". DoF will do complete research about 234 wingers, talk with coach, talk with scouts, talk with CEO and then decide what is the best solution.
We don't have that kind of Dof. Our Dof just asks manager who to sign and then he (over)pays what is needed.

Murtough is our biggest problem. While he is here we are not going forward.
 

Tibs

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He also appointed Rangnick as interim manager who is more suitable as DOF. And then, cancelled the consultancy or advisor roles to the DOF which he is actually very good at.
This one was unforgivable imo...Ralf is exactly who we need in or around the DOF role
 

RedDevil@84

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The revisionism of the Sancho transfer is hilarious, this transfer was backed by nearly every poster on this forum, there were not many dissenting voices at the time
I remember feeling a bit bewildered to see how sure shot people were.
 

Garethw

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I’m sure I read somewhere that literally every single transfer decision has to be signed off by Joel. The CEO and DOF have zero final say on any financial decision even when working to a budget set by the Glazers.

It’s supposedly why all of our transfers are so protracted.
 

Adnan

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Sorry but this is nonsense, a good player is a good player regardless of who recommended them. Would you have preferred that we ignored Alvarez because he was wanted by Rangnick and proceeded to, say, sign Mame Biram Diouf because our permanent manager wanted him in?

That lack of nous to identify and act on opportunities is why we are lagging behind. Remember how we missed out on Haaland and others? It's because we lack agility at the upper echelons.

Rangnick was no ordinary placeholder, he helped build the RB group doing the exact thing we have failed to do - proper recruitment for the first team at bargain prices. So yeah his managerial tenure was shit but that in no way takes away what he has achieved in top level football over the last fifteen years. When he spoke jokers like Murtough, Arnold and the Glazers should have not only listened but taken notes because surprise, surprise, a year after jettisoning him we have made the same blunders that we made for the last ten years.
I said no sensible club would sign a player for a placeholder. And if you remember what was going on at the time with numerous players leaking stuff to the media due to Solskjaer reportedly promising them game time, which never materialised hence him losing the trust of the dressing room. It would've been foolish to sign players and bring them into a dressing room that was divided. And you don't sign players in January unless the player is part of the plan going forward or else you end up with a situation where the same fans are then saying the manager didn't want the player, which happened under Bout and Lawlor the previous recruitment directors.

Rangnick was a ordinary football manager who came to prominence after Dietmar Hopp ploughed his personal fortune into his local club Hoffenheim. And after Hopp had financially doped up Hoffenheim he was looking for someone to set the directive on the football side of the club and low and behold Rangnick was available because he'd been jumping from club to club previously and now had the advantage of Hopp's money which gave him the advantage to build a team that was going to make a promotion push.

At the Red Bull clubs Rangnick had a even bigger advantage and those clubs were financially doped up by the Mateschitz family who currently have a net worh of $51.9bn. What that family did was they bought 8 clubs in total and used 6 of those clubs to cherry pick the best talents from around the globe for the benefit of Salzburg and Leipzig. You can't compare what the Mateschitz family did to what happens under the Glazers. So what the media did was they reported on the rise of Hoffenheim and the Red Bull clubs but they didn't tell us how the wealth of the owners ultimately made the difference.

And Rangnick's entire philosophy is indirectly centred around the out of possession concepts of coaches like Sacchi, Lobanowski and Michels. So the pressing and counter pressing out of possession was what he became obsessed with but his teams in possession never stood the test of time. Hence why you'd see the runners like Laimer and Haidara occupying deeper midfield roles in his teams where he completely bypassed the midfield.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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The revisionism of the Sancho transfer is hilarious, this transfer was backed by nearly every poster on this forum, there were not many dissenting voices at the time
True, but there were also plenty of people angry we didn't cave in and pay the 100mil+.

And there were a lot of people who thought he'd displace Rashford(I always thought Sancho was the inferior player).

And I do think(despite me also expecting more), he was severally overrated by a good portion of the caf.
 

Sunny Jim

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Mistakes he's been directly involved in since becoming DoF:

- Renewed Mike Phelan's contract after the Solskjaer disasterclass in the Europa League final, first indication of his lack of awareness and foresight.

- Spent a large chunk of budget on Sancho, whilst we already had Greenwood, Amad and Pellistri as options for the right wing.

- Due to spending the money on Sancho he failed to bring in a much needed CDM to replace one of McFred as the deepest midfielder in the double pivot, after poor performances and heavy criticism the season prior. This left a huge hole in our midfield which led to a poor season overall.

- Failed to bring in a CDM in the January window to help Rangnick's problems in midfield after the Solskjaer sack.

- Spent a large % of the summer budget on another RW, Antony, whilst we already have Sancho, Amad and Pellistri instead of signing a much needed centre forward. This signing was a critical error for a number of reasons, showing that he's unable to walk away from a ridiculous, overpriced valuation.

- Failed to bring in any low value, high potential scout oriented signings.

- Due to his failing in the summer to sign a top striker, Weghorst is brought in to replace Ronaldo until the end of the season. A player that had already proved he wasn't up to standard after an awful season at Burnley. He goes on to become the worst striker at the club in a very long time, potentially ever.

- The first signing of the summer is a player that has just had the worst season of their career, for £55 million with a year left on his contract, £5 million more than a public take it or leave it offer. This again shows the inability to walk away from an overpriced valuation, setting the club up badly for future negotiations. The early signs show that Fernandes and Mount are completely incompatible in the same midfield as two 10s, something that was obvious to the average fan but not to the director of football. The player is currently injured to no surprise, the equivalent of throwing millions of the club's money into a hot fire, yet again.

- Failed to sell McTominay, after rejecting £30 million (!!) from West Ham, meaning we have no money for any more permanent signings.

- The end of the window beckons, realisation sinks in that Mount is not the no.6/no.8 we desperately needed and we end up paying double the original asking amount for the Amrabat loan, a player that still hasn't been integrated into our starting XI over a month into the season.

- Again, failed to bring in any low value, high potential scout oriented signings, whilst as always giving the manager an unhealthy amount of power in regards to recruitment.

- After a disastrous start to the season following all the predictable mistakes, fans are now turning on the manager.

I think it's time we recruit a better DoF..
Imho he should be sacked for this summer window alone.

- buying Onana after a display in the CL final, his price couldnt be possible higher
- Mason Mount, i mean what the feck?
- rejecting 30mil for McT when Amrabat was waiting to join

- but the biggest mistake was Casemiro. Massive contract, 5 year long, huge fee
 

Adnan

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Okay that covers 2021, what about 2022 and 2023? Are they to blame for the mistakes made then too?
Can you tell me who made up the recruitment structure in the summer of 2022?
Okay, I thought you meant in general and yes, I can see that in terms of our own case. It's a shame that the following summer seems to have just been as poor as before, structure-wise, just going after obvious oldies like Casemiro and a bunch of ten Hag's favourites.
In the past I've been very critical of our recruitment because the recruitment didn't make sense as far as creating a more dominant proactive attacking team. But the recruitment thus far has been centred around creating a more dominant team. Yes, we had to lean on ten Hag after sacking the recruitment directors from the previous regime in the summer of 2022. So as I mentioned at the time it was sensible to lean on ten Hag and create a structure on the football side of the club which will aid the development of the club in the mid to long-term. The DoF doesn't select players to sign at any club without the say so of the people who are actually running the recruitment department at the club.

We still need to improve our physical and athletic capabilities as a team and I'm hoping to see players bought in future transfer windows who are a fit both technically and from a physical/athletical pov. But I'm still optimistic that once we have the full squad available, we should see a more functional team.
 

Cassidy

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It should actually be about signing a player that is in-sync with the mid to long-term strategy which revolves around who will be hired to execute said strategy. When Liverpool hired Klopp in October 2015, they didn't panic and sign players in January to supposedly save their season in the short-term but rather they played the long game and signed players the following summer but ended up finishing 8th.

If you can tell me how a DoF structure functions and how it is structured then it'll be very clear to you that the actual structure was not in place in 2021 due to that structure being one that was created by Ed Woodward. And it would've been foolish of me to judge Murtough on the decisions made by Jim Lawlor (at the club since 2005) and Marcel Bout (Van Gaal's backroom staff) who were in charge of recruitment at first team level. With Phelan and Solskjaer setting the directive on the football side of the club.



That's what a football structure is created for but that football structure was not in place at the time and was instead made up of people that were from the previous regime. This is what most people don't understand and naively believe a DoF goes around identifying players on his own without having a support structure In place. And once he has the support structure in place he will be judged but I'm not going to judge him on the decisions made by the likes of Woodward, Judge, Bout, Lawlor and the various managers hired by Woodward.

Signings should be made with a strategy in mind and that strategy heavily revolves around who the head coach will be. And all the supposedly well run clubs who have a defined way of playing the game have centred their recruitment around a specific way of playing the game. At Barcelona it was around the methods of Cruyff and at Brighton it was around the positional play methods of Potter and now De Zerbi.
The whole point of having a DoF is for him to set a strategy and create a structure that will create continuity and align all the football departments where they're working in tandem with each other towards a common goal. But you have to allow him to create the structure and then give that structure sometime so we can judge their work. And the new structure has just recently completed a year in their new roles with Matt Hargreaves only taking up his role as the chief negotiator in June this year.

And like I've said in one of my previous posts, someone please tell me who you want as DoF and how they have structured their club on the recruitment side of the club and how that has impressed you. Because my opinion is that under a different ownership it doesn't really matter who the DoF is.
I wanted Rangnick and his CV speaks for itself.
Also you keep making the excuses of time but its clear we as a club are continuing to make poor decisions in recruitment.

Whatever structure Murtough has put in place it did not help this summer.

The DOF will absolutely matter under a new owner. However by your logic they will need another 3 years to develop the structure before we can start evaluating their recruitment decisions.
 

Ubik

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Can you tell me who made up the recruitment structure in the summer of 2022?

In the past I've been very critical of our recruitment because the recruitment didn't make sense as far as creating a more dominant proactive attacking team. But the recruitment thus far has been centred around creating a more dominant team. Yes, we had to lean on ten Hag after sacking the recruitment directors from the previous regime in the summer of 2022. So as I mentioned at the time it was sensible to lean on ten Hag and create a structure on the football side of the club which will aid the development of the club in the mid to long-term. The DoF doesn't select players to sign at any club without the say so of the people who are actually running the recruitment department at the club.

We still need to improve our physical and athletic capabilities as a team and I'm hoping to see players bought in future transfer windows who are a fit both technically and from a physical/athletical pov. But I'm still optimistic that once we have the full squad available, we should see a more functional team.
Fair enough, I am hopeful once Amrabat comes in it'll be less shit. Antony is the big annoyance tbh, half that money should get you a better player, let alone all the other stuff about him. Fingers crossed someone else steps up.
 

luke511

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Can you tell me who made up the recruitment structure in the summer of 2022?

In the past I've been very critical of our recruitment because the recruitment didn't make sense as far as creating a more dominant proactive attacking team. But the recruitment thus far has been centred around creating a more dominant team. Yes, we had to lean on ten Hag after sacking the recruitment directors from the previous regime in the summer of 2022. So as I mentioned at the time it was sensible to lean on ten Hag and create a structure on the football side of the club which will aid the development of the club in the mid to long-term. The DoF doesn't select players to sign at any club without the say so of the people who are actually running the recruitment department at the club.

We still need to improve our physical and athletic capabilities as a team and I'm hoping to see players bought in future transfer windows who are a fit both technically and from a physical/athletical pov. But I'm still optimistic that once we have the full squad available, we should see a more functional team.
Murtough and Ten Hag by the looks of it
 

Abraxas

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The problem with Murtough is he might not actually be that bad, but he's very, very far from best in class. Not everything he has done is horrible, but you wouldn't appoint a middling to low tier manager of average reputation on the football side so why is it good enough on the operational side?

Frankly, it isn't. Man United should be about attracting the best people to do a role. Is there a place for people that know the club (I'm thinking Fletcher and the accusation it's a job for the boys club), well...maybe. It has worked for some clubs. But only when they're surrounded by experience and quality in my opinion. Man United is too big to not have best in class heading up departments.
 

Baxquux

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And Rangnick's entire philosophy is indirectly centred around the out of possession concepts of coaches like Sacchi, Lobanowski and Michels. So the pressing and counter pressing out of possession was what he became obsessed with but his teams in possession never stood the test of time. Hence why you'd see the runners like Laimer and Haidara occupying deeper midfield roles in his teams where he completely bypassed the midfield.
I appreciate, like many people, your thought-out posts, and you obviously have some insight into club structures. But counter is that we've seen the leaked player list and RR's comments. It was clear that under ETH, at least, most of the first team needed to be replaced, and RR was correct on this. There's also a strong case that firstly, ETH has been allowed, either by his actively arguing for power or by a vacuum in decision-making, to bring in players who in turn have in turn come largely from a disproportionately small 'pool' of players (i.e. ones he's directly familiar with), which points to the need for a strong counter-voice . Secondly, the players ETH has brought in or had brought in by and large don't seem to be working particularly well or offered a short-term solution but are now paying the cost, and the club with it, for their physical decline. And thirdly, RR's picks would have suited , in their physical attributes and, arguably (you can debate how much in each case) their technical/mental ones,, the kind of press/transition ETH indicates he wants to play....

Allowing RR to refresh the squad with a couple of low-priced powerful/ sufficiently technical promising players who could slot into most modern systems (Alvarez in particular; Gvardiol if he was available at a much cheaper price than City got him for; Sesko too on balance; the other RB guys like Haidara maybe less so in a Pep style but fine for Kloppball, half the CL teams and, honestly, for ETH) would have been sensible, even when we weren't sure who the new head coach was going to be. The club should have already had a good idea of the general profile, so they could work with RR for that, and either Poch or ETH or a third candidate could have made use of most of that list. And if even RR's not quite the SD genius others have claimed him to be, there's a reason why he's been entrusted with developing Red Bull squad profiles ...
 

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I wanted Rangnick and his CV speaks for itself.
Also you keep making the excuses of time but its clear we as a club are continuing to make poor decisions in recruitment.

Whatever structure Murtough has put in place it did not help this summer.

The DOF will absolutely matter under a new owner. However by your logic they will need another 3 years to develop the structure before we can start evaluating their recruitment decisions.
What in Rangnick's CV speaks of itself?
 

Adnan

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I wanted Rangnick and his CV speaks for itself.
Also you keep making the excuses of time but its clear we as a club are continuing to make poor decisions in recruitment.

Whatever structure Murtough has put in place it did not help this summer.

The DOF will absolutely matter under a new owner. However by your logic they will need another 3 years to develop the structure before we can start evaluating their recruitment decisions.
What are the poor decisions in recruitment and how should we have recruited in the transfer window just gone?

Rangnick's CV as a DoF is under ownership who were filthy rich, that's a fact.

The DoF will absolutely matter under a new owner but when you give that DoF a bigger scope to recruit players it will make a difference a lot quicker. I have no doubt if under a different owner the difference will be seen within the first summer window.
 

Cassidy

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What are the poor decisions in recruitment and how should we have recruited in the transfer window just gone?

Rangnick's CV as a DoF is under ownership who were filthy rich, that's a fact.

Had a clear policy of going for young up and coming players as a priority thats a fact.

The DoF will absolutely matter under a new owner but when you give that DoF a bigger scope to recruit players it will make a difference a lot quicker. I have no doubt if under a different owner the difference will be seen within the first summer window.
Filthy rich yet spent less than United. Thats a fact

Had a clear policy of going for young up and coming players as a priority thats a fact.

Yes Murtough will waste more money under a new owner

As for this summer. We should have signed 2 CFs we should have signed someone like Thuram on a free. By the way the free transfer market is something Rangnick mentioned the club would need to tap into to rebuild.

Another player we should have looked into was Kamada considering we wanted to offload VDB.

I do not believe 55m on Mount on 300k a week with bonuses was the correct use of funds given our priorities in the market this summer.

At the end of the day you are a poster who always defends Murtough and the clubs new transfer strategy and you have done so for at least 2 years from what I can tell. So I am not surprised by your stance.
And I have actually respected your stance for that time,
After the 2 years I think Murtough is free to be criticised.
 
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Adnan

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Filthy rich yet spent less than United. Thats a fact
When the strategy doesn't involve winning trophies and consistently finishing below Dortmund, then it's not a surprise they haven't spent as much in comparison to us.
 

Ubik

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I appreciate, like many people, your thought-out posts, and you obviously have some insight into club structures. But counter is that we've seen the leaked player list and RR's comments. It was clear that under ETH, at least, most of the first team needed to be replaced, and RR was correct on this. There's also a strong case that firstly, ETH has been allowed, either by his actively arguing for power or by a vacuum in decision-making, to bring in players who in turn have in turn come largely from a disproportionately small 'pool' of players (i.e. ones he's directly familiar with), which points to the need for a strong counter-voice . Secondly, the players ETH has brought in or had brought in by and large don't seem to be working particularly well or offered a short-term solution but are now paying the cost, and the club with it, for their physical decline. And thirdly, RR's picks would have suited , in their physical attributes and, arguably (you can debate how much in each case) their technical/mental ones,, the kind of press/transition ETH indicates he wants to play....

Allowing RR to refresh the squad with a couple of low-priced powerful/ sufficiently technical promising players who could slot into most modern systems (Alvarez in particular; Gvardiol if he was available at a much cheaper price than City got him for; Sesko too on balance; the other RB guys like Haidara maybe less so in a Pep style but fine for Kloppball, half the CL teams and, honestly, for ETH) would have been sensible, even when we weren't sure who the new head coach was going to be. The club should have already had a good idea of the general profile, so they could work with RR for that, and either Poch or ETH or a third candidate could have made use of most of that list. And if even RR's not quite the SD genius others have claimed him to be, there's a reason why he's been entrusted with developing Red Bull squad profiles ...
What's the leaked list?
 

AneRu

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I said no sensible club would sign a player for a placeholder. And if you remember what was going on at the time with numerous players leaking stuff to the media due to Solskjaer reportedly promising them game time, which never materialised hence him losing the trust of the dressing room. It would've been foolish to sign players and bring them into a dressing room that was divided. And you don't sign players in January unless the player is part of the plan going forward or else you end up with a situation where the same fans are then saying the manager didn't want the player, which happened under Bout and Lawlor the previous recruitment directors.

Rangnick was a ordinary football manager who came to prominence after Dietmar Hopp ploughed his personal fortune into his local club Hoffenheim. And after Hopp had financially doped up Hoffenheim he was looking for someone to set the directive on the football side of the club and low and behold Rangnick was available because he'd been jumping from club to club previously and now had the advantage of Hopp's money which gave him the advantage to build a team that was going to make a promotion push.

At the Red Bull clubs Rangnick had a even bigger advantage and those clubs were financially doped up by the Mateschitz family who currently have a net worh of $51.9bn. What that family did was they bought 8 clubs in total and used 6 of those clubs to cherry pick the best talents from around the globe for the benefit of Salzburg and Leipzig. You can't compare what the Mateschitz family did to what happens under the Glazers. So what the media did was they reported on the rise of Hoffenheim and the Red Bull clubs but they didn't tell us how the wealth of the owners ultimately made the difference.


And Rangnick's entire philosophy is indirectly centred around the out of possession concepts of coaches like Sacchi, Lobanowski and Michels. So the pressing and counter pressing out of possession was what he became obsessed with but his teams in possession never stood the test of time. Hence why you'd see the runners like Laimer and Haidara occupying deeper midfield roles in his teams where he completely bypassed the midfield.
Both his former employers being wealthy doesn't diminish his effectiveness in transforming wealth into a coherent football structure geared for success, which is what we have been struggling with for over a decade. This means he was the right man for what we needed and arguably still need after this summer's shambles.

What we are asking for Murtough isn't to be this magician that picks up youngsters for a pound on the dozen and turn them into PL superstars. We are asking for a streamlined, effective recruitment structure that meets the team's immediate and long term needs.

Get the best scouts in feeding into our talent ID, involve the manager but draw the line on ridiculous deals like £60m for Mount or £80m for Antony. That's why he is the football man, he has to have an understanding of value and the backbone to walk away when it's approaching unsustainable levels.

And where the feck was he when Jadon Sancho was being offered 350k per week? He has failed in his duties and being ineffective in being the first line of defense against an all too familiar waste of scarce resources by United managers. It looks and feels like he isn't there at all.
 

El Jefe

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Okay :lol: no accountability for Murtough up until post summer 2023 even though he was hired as DoF in March 2021. Good one.
It’s honestly maddening :lol:

There’s not one iota of objectivity with that poster when it comes to assessing Murtough’s reign.

All the negatives are someone else’s fault and the positives are behind the scenes activities which only they are privy to. It’s a whole load of biased bs to me.
 

Cassidy

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When the strategy doesn't involve winning trophies and consistently finishing below Dortmund, then it's not a surprise they haven't spent as much in comparison to us.
They have outperformed us with the quality if players they have brought in. This is not up for debate

Also relative to where they began they are closer to winning a major trophy then United are.

You are being disingenuous now in order to discredit the work. Which to be honest I did not expect from someone like you
 

Blood Mage

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Every bit as useless as Woodward. Only in the job because he's a Glazer puppet who tows the line.