Jordan Henderson | New Athletic Interview: I strongly believe that me playing in Saudi Arabia is a positive thing

[adexkola]

So a Liverpool legend does nothing good for the LGBTQ community by speaking up for them?
Of course people who other people idolize have an impact on social trends.

I guess my point has been, talk and tweets are cheap. Anyone can do that.

But if you're devoting time at a shelter focused towards LGBT youth, or you're writing checks to LGBT charity groups above a token amount, or you're meeting with MPs to advocate for stricter penalties against anti-gay chants from the terraces... That's tangible work that can't be wiped out by a mere move to Saudi Arabia.

 

[adexkola]

Yes, that's true. Until we see that Henderson's signing leads to increase in LGBT suicides in the UK, or an increase in gay people being murdered in KSA, there really is no harm or negative impact that a known LGBT "ally" playing in an openly anti-gay country can have.

I'd love to be shown I'm wrong on this. What are the specifics on the damage Henderson has supposedly caused singlehandedly by his move to Saudi Arabia?

 

[tomaldinho1]

Milan is a dump

Oh I agree but then I thought of turning out in the San Siro made me whack it in there (plus it would still be CL level football for him)

 

[Gehrman]

I'd love to be shown I'm wrong on this. What are the specifics on the damage Henderson has supposedly caused singlehandedly by his move to Saudi Arabia?

His reputation and authenticity. Im honestly a bit grateful that he's shown the true colours of footballers who market themselves as Social Justice Warriors. Most reasonable people can see this a mile away.

 

[Ted Lasso]

Kinda sounds like you're saying "we'll support you, but only up to the point where we have to actually do something that might inconvenience us". That inconvenience or 'self-sacrifice' is surely part of it, no? Whether that's challenging someone's homophobic viewpoints even though it might make the social setting a bit awkward, or whether that's not working to legitimise a such a regime that has laws against the community.

Exactly that. I vote in support and speak up in my circles and sphere of influence. But I'm not moving because I live in a red state or governed by a conservative Christian leadership.

 

[Posh Red]

Can you imagine if Rashford signed for a right-wing state after all of his campaigning work? The media would absolutely destroy him.

 

[BootsyCollins]

I guess my point has been, talk and tweets are cheap. Anyone can do that.

But if you're devoting time at a shelter focused towards LGBT youth, or you're writing checks to LGBT charity groups above a token amount, or you're meeting with MPs to advocate for stricter penalties against anti-gay chants from the terraces... That's tangible work that can't be wiped out by a mere move to Saudi Arabia.

Yes talk is cheap, but its not free. Its better than nothing.

And a place and situation were talk is not cheap would be standing up for gay rights in Saudi Arabia.

Henderson is a hypocrite, as many people are. In his case it was very visible to a large audience and he let a ton of people down.

 

[adexkola]

His reputation and authenticity. Im honestly a bit grateful that he's shown the true colours of footballers who market themselves as Social Justice Warriors. Most reasonable people can see this a mile away.

Oh, then no real damage caused.

I meant added impact to what LGBT people face today.

Can you imagine if Rashford signed for a right-wing state after all of his campaigning work? The media would absolutely destroy him.

Yeah it would almost be like if he went into a time machine and took food out of all of those children's mouths.

Actually, no it wouldn't

 

[Posh Red]

Oh, then no real damage caused.

I meant added impact to what LGBT people face today.



Yeah it would almost be like if he went into a time machine and took food out of all of those children's mouths.

Actually, no it wouldn't

Are you disagreeing that the media would single him out for hypocrisy? Because that’s my only point here.

 

[Gehrman]

Can you imagine if Rashford signed for a right-wing state after all of his campaigning work? The media would absolutely destroy him.

He's playing for a club owned by right wing american owners. And he did a tounge in cheek article for the spectator.

 

[Posh Red]

He's playing for a club owned by right wing american owners. And he did a tounge in cheek article for the spectator.

This just seems like a complete false equivalence to me, but okay.

 

[LInkash]

Can you imagine if Rashford signed for a right-wing state after all of his campaigning work? The media would absolutely destroy him.

Imagine how many kids he could feed with the money.

 

[Gehrman]

Imagine how many kids he could feed with the money.

Have the Glazers and Tories ceased to be right wing?

 

[adexkola]

Are you disagreeing that the media would single him out for hypocrisy? Because that’s my only point here.

Oh no, wasn't disagreeing with you. Was piggybacking to make a point.

 

[Posh Red]

Oh no, wasn't disagreeing with you. Was piggybacking to make a point.

Ahhhh sorry. Misunderstood.

 

[Gehrman]

This just seems like a complete false equivalence to me, but okay.

What right wing state do you have in mind? As an example? Part of the whole right wing thing is a small government, so there wouldnt be any state ownership over football teams.

 

[Alex99]

There are couple of bits early on where he essentially tries to frame his only options as rotting on Liverpool's bench or move to Saudi, which have their own issues, but the below stood out more to me.

On what, ultimately, convinced him to make the move to Saudi Arabia:

Now, when I was making the decision, the way that I tried to look at it was I felt as though, by myself not going, we can all bury our heads in the sand and criticise different cultures and different countries from afar. But then nothing’s going to happen. Nothing’s going to change.

On whether his move increases the likelihood of change in Saudi Arabia:

I think people know what my views and values were before I left and still do now. And I think having someone with those views and values in Saudi Arabia is only a positive thing.

On the face of it, these two answers look great and certainly consistent with his support of LGBT causes in the UK. However, he immediately follows it up by basically saying he won't do anything while in Saudi.

On how this is different to Qatar, where no change was visible:

Firstly, I’m not a politician. I never have been and never wanted to be. I have never tried to change laws or rules in England, never mind in a different country where I’m not from. So I’m not saying that I’m going there to do that.

...

Now, I see that as a positive thing. I see that because, from their (Saudi) side, they knew that before signing it. So they knew what my beliefs were. They knew what causes and campaigns I’ve done in the past and not once was it brought up. Not once have they said, “You can do this, you can’t do this.”

On whether he'll continue to wear the rainbow laces/armband:

I wouldn’t rule that out. But at the same time, what I wouldn’t do is disrespect the religion and culture in Saudi Arabia. If we’re all saying everybody can be who they want to be and everybody is inclusive, then we’ll have to respect that. We’ll have to respect everyone. And by doing something like that, if that did disrespect the religion, then no, I’m not going to do that.

On the graying out of his rainbow armband in his announcement video:

I didn’t know anything about it until it was out. And it’s hard for me to know and understand everything because it is part of the religion. So if I wear the rainbow armband, if that disrespects their religion, then that’s not right either. Everybody should be respectful of religion and culture.

On whether "respecting the culture" just leaves gay people in a situation where they essentially have to accept that their existence is illegal:

All I’ve ever tried to do is help. And when I’ve been asked for help, I’ve gone above and beyond to help. I’ve worn the laces. I’ve worn the armband. I’ve spoken to people in that community to try to use my profile to help them.

...

I have family and friends in the LGBTQ+ community.

Henderson genuinely seems to be of the belief that his mere presence in Saudi Arabia is a force for good, repeating as much a few times throughout the interview, which is weird, because he also says at one point that he can't do anything because he's just one man. There's a bit of dissonance going on where he repeats that he's not been told to keep quiet about things so that's good, but acknowledges that he can't really do or say anything as it will be seen as disrespectful.

The last bit is unintentionally hilarious. "I've gone above and beyond for these people. I've worn laces, I've worn the armband, I've spoken to people. And I've got gay friends!"

I don't want to add much of my own commentary because I think those quotes essentially speak for themselves. There are also a couple of occasions where he gushes over how nice it was in Qatar and how nice it is in Saudi, and it's then pointed out to him that he's probably been privy to quite a manicured view of things, with his answer to that being "well my experience was nice." Ultimately, it reads like he wasn't prepared to be grilled quite as much as he was, and also that he had a few canned answers that he fell back on when challenged, without really answering the questions put to him.

I'm just not sure what he was hoping to get out of doing this interview as it certainly won't have done anything to win over the people he seemed to be trying to please by doing it.

 

[top1whoisman]

I think people know what my views and values were before I left and still do now. And I think having someone with those views and values in Saudi Arabia is only a positive thing.

Doesn’t really matter if you’re not going to express those views and values while there.

 

[BD]

Exactly that. I vote in support and speak up in my circles and sphere of influence. But I'm not moving because I live in a red state or governed by a conservative Christian leadership.

Of course no one would expect you to move. If Henderson was just living in Saudi Arabia, there wouldn't be much, if any, outcry. But he's not just living there, he's being paid millions to play in and promote the league and by extension a regime that has laws against LGBTQ groups.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

There are couple of bits early on where he essentially tries to frame his only options as rotting on Liverpool's bench or move to Saudi, which have their own issues, but the below stood out more to me.

On what, ultimately, convinced him to make the move to Saudi Arabia:



On whether his move increases the likelihood of change in Saudi Arabia:



On the face of it, these two answers look great and certainly consistent with his support of LGBT causes in the UK. However, he immediately follows it up by basically saying he won't do anything while in Saudi.

On how this is different to Qatar, where no change was visible:



On whether he'll continue to wear the rainbow laces/armband:



On the graying out of his rainbow armband in his announcement video:



On whether "respecting the culture" just leaves gay people in a situation where they essentially have to accept that their existence is illegal:




Henderson genuinely seems to be of the belief that his mere presence in Saudi Arabia is a force for good, repeating as much a few times throughout the interview, which is weird, because he also says at one point that he can't do anything because he's just one man. There's a bit of dissonance going on where he repeats that he's not been told to keep quiet about things so that's good, but acknowledges that he can't really do or say anything as it will be seen as disrespectful.

The last bit is unintentionally hilarious. "I've gone above and beyond for these people. I've worn laces, I've worn the armband, I've spoken to people. And I've got gay friends!"

I don't want to add much of my own commentary because I think those quotes essentially speak for themselves. There are also a couple of occasions where he gushes over how nice it was in Qatar and how nice it is in Saudi, and it's then pointed out to him that he's probably been privy to quite a manicured view of things, with his answer to that being "well my experience was nice." Ultimately, it reads like he wasn't prepared to be grilled quite as much as he was, and also that he had a few canned answers that he fell back on when challenged, without really answering the questions put to him.

I'm just not sure what he was hoping to get out of doing this interview as it certainly won't have done anything to win over the people he seemed to be trying to please by doing it.

The more quotes come out of the interview, the worst it looks. It really is very moronic of him to have opened his mouth on this.

 

[MackRobinson]

There are couple of bits early on where he essentially tries to frame his only options as rotting on Liverpool's bench or move to Saudi, which have their own issues, but the below stood out more to me.

On what, ultimately, convinced him to make the move to Saudi Arabia:



On whether his move increases the likelihood of change in Saudi Arabia:



On the face of it, these two answers look great and certainly consistent with his support of LGBT causes in the UK. However, he immediately follows it up by basically saying he won't do anything while in Saudi.

On how this is different to Qatar, where no change was visible:



On whether he'll continue to wear the rainbow laces/armband:



On the graying out of his rainbow armband in his announcement video:



On whether "respecting the culture" just leaves gay people in a situation where they essentially have to accept that their existence is illegal:




Henderson genuinely seems to be of the belief that his mere presence in Saudi Arabia is a force for good, repeating as much a few times throughout the interview, which is weird, because he also says at one point that he can't do anything because he's just one man. There's a bit of dissonance going on where he repeats that he's not been told to keep quiet about things so that's good, but acknowledges that he can't really do or say anything as it will be seen as disrespectful.

The last bit is unintentionally hilarious. "I've gone above and beyond for these people. I've worn laces, I've worn the armband, I've spoken to people. And I've got gay friends!"

I don't want to add much of my own commentary because I think those quotes essentially speak for themselves. There are also a couple of occasions where he gushes over how nice it was in Qatar and how nice it is in Saudi, and it's then pointed out to him that he's probably been privy to quite a manicured view of things, with his answer to that being "well my experience was nice." Ultimately, it reads like he wasn't prepared to be grilled quite as much as he was, and also that he had a few canned answers that he fell back on when challenged, without really answering the questions put to him.

I'm just not sure what he was hoping to get out of doing this interview as it certainly won't have done anything to win over the people he seemed to be trying to please by doing it.

He strikes me as just a really dumb footballer with an even dumber PR team. I thought the criticism was unnecessary and over-the-top before but he deserves all the flak for this trainwreck of an interview.

 

[Pexbo]

It seems like he’s upsetting both the gays and the arabs and the truth obviously lies somewhere in the middle, right my fellow centrist dads?

 

[maniak]

It seems like he’s upsetting both the gays and the arabs and the truth obviously lies somewhere in the middle, right my fellow centrist dads?

Maybe we can lock up lgbt folks on mondays, wednesdays and fridays and let them live their lives on the other days. Compromise.

 

[Ted Lasso]

I don't think you really understand what an ally is. I would suspect, no offence intended, that this is probably a bit of a distant and purely theoretical matter for you, considering your messages.

It's the American way. Bomb Pearl Harbor and let's talk about getting boots dirty.

It's not entirely theoretical. I'm just getting tired of social media campaigns against individuals as if cancel culture affects change. These movements are becoming more and more entitled and lazy.

For sake of not ruffling feathers let's take a look at the anti-woke "movement" and their outrage at Budweiser showing, again in my opinion, meaningless support of the LGBT community. There was all this buzz about boycotting them , Kid Rock shooting up a case in his backyard and riling up the angry and vocal on social media group.

Surprise surprise nobody went broke.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ro.../woke-companies-broke-profits-1234710724/amp/

Whatever your movement or messaging, posting and btching about it on social media doesn't effect change. Wearing a flag or a pin doesn't affect change.

Go ask older leaders of the women's rights and black civil rights movements what it takes. Or for that matter the true LGBT champions from 20 years ago that got gay marriage legalized.

So much of this dialogue today is absolutely meaningless virtue signaling. And if I'm not mistaken Malcolm Gladwell does a really good deep dive into how it's actually dangerous for the causes themselves. It makes people complacent to the actual ways in which you bring upon sweeping societal progressive change. See Brexit and Trump for example.

 

[Ted Lasso]

It seems like he’s upsetting both the gays and the arabs and the truth obviously lies somewhere in the middle, right my fellow centrist dads?

I'm so centrist right now. Mad at everybody engaging in this discussion on both sides for being opinionated either way.

 

[Bobski]

He should have just owned it as an economic decision made in the best interests of his family, though that is probably not the message the club and league wants out there. Part of the problem is so much of the stuff that footballers, or their PR team, put out is carefully created nothingness, saying what is expected of the brand.

Find it pointless to call him out on it when so many fanbases across the game would eagerly welcome Saudi ownership, we are all hypocrites.

 

[Alex99]

The more quotes come out of the interview, the worst it looks. It really is very moronic of him to have opened his mouth on this.

It's just such a bad interview. I don't know what the purpose was or who came up with the idea for him to do it. These are all separate quotes that basically prove he had a canned response about him being there being a positive thing in and of itself:

And I think having someone with those views and values in Saudi Arabia is only a positive thing.

And my values don’t change because I’m going to a different country where the laws of the country might be different.

Now, I see that as a positive thing. I see that because, from their (Saudi) side, they knew that before signing it. So they knew what my beliefs were.

And I think it can only be a positive thing to try to open up like around Qatar. In the end, around Qatar, having a World Cup there shined a light on certain issues where I think in the end, I might be wrong, but they changed some rules and regulations to be able to host the World Cup and I think that’s positive.

So I like to think that by me going with the beliefs and values that I have, is that not a positive thing?

I can’t promise anything, but what I can do is sit here and say I have my values and beliefs. And I strongly believe that me playing in Saudi Arabia is a positive thing.

 

[eire-red]

Probably would have been better for him not to come out and comment. Some decisions you can't rationalise no matter how hard you try.

Either he's deluded or an idiot.

 

[Alex99]

Probably would have been better for him not to come out and comment. Some decisions you can't rationalise no matter how hard you try.

Either he's deluded or an idiot.

I think this is a little column A, a little column B.

I got the impression that he genuinely believes that he's done a lot for LGBT causes, and is continuing to do so simply by being someone living in Saudi Arabia that doesn't hate gay people. I also got the impression that he cares a great deal about his public image in the UK and this was a serious attempt at winning back the favour of his critics.

 

[devaneios]

Apparently, the LGBT movement(at least a very noisy part of it) wants you to support respect for gay people only if you are willing to make all your life decisions, including professional and family ones, with their cause in mind as the primarly factor.

Sounds very dumb; if I was a leader of a social movement, I'd be as welcoming as possible.

 

[Halftrack]

Sounds very dumb

Don't sign your posts.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Apparently, the LGBT movement(at least a very noisy part of it) wants you to support respect for gay people only if you are willing to make all your life decisions, including professional and family ones, with their cause in mind as the primarly factor.

Sounds very dumb; if I was a leader of a social movement, I'd be as welcoming as possible.

This is so utterly stunted.

ALL OF US should should be fully inclusive in every single decision we make in life. Sometimes it’s impossible to advocate for everyone to the point of absolute equality (see Covid measures and it’s impact on disabled people).

But yes. Every single thing that you ever do should be justifiable and equitable to all. It’s not hard. Who in the ever loving feck of all that’s holy, thinks that that’s hard?

 

[devaneios]

This is so utterly stunted.

ALL OF US should should be fully inclusive in every single decision we make in life. Sometimes it’s impossible to advocate for everyone to the point of absolute equality (see Covid measures and it’s impact on disabled people).

But yes. Every single thing that you ever do should be justifiable and equitable to all. It’s not hard. Who in the ever loving feck of all that’s holy, thinks that that’s hard?

Yeah, we should, but that isn't how the world works though. Very few people would avoid a significantly wealthier condition, for himself and his family, just because it isn't the most "socially correct" option. I don't think it's fair to put anyone as a bad person because of that; it's a very high standard and I bet it's very hypocritical in most cases.

Also, it's not like he's accepting money to directly advertise for an oppressive government; he's over there just to collect a big paycheck playing football and run his life. I don't think he abandoned his convictions about respect for gays rights or that it was fake from the start.

Anyway, English is not my first language(as it should be obvious at this point) and I'm not very used to writing in it, let alone on a complex subject. I should probably just stop here.

 

[eire-red]

Don't sign your posts.

 

[jadaba]

Id say wearing rainbow coloured what ever falls completely on its face when you decide to sign a contract with an employer who kills homosexuals for being homosexual.

I agree with your comment there, but disagree with the original framing by Stephen Knight. Henderson has undermined his legacy of LGBTQ+ allyship because the perception is he substituted morals for money and nothing more, which I wouldn't contest. But it's unhelpful to expect that a player must either be entirely committed to the cause especially in the places where stakes are highest--such as Saudi--otherwise their campaigning means nothing.

He would not move the needle to advance LGBTQ+ rights in Saudi by being outspoken, by wearing rainbow laces or whatever within the country. In fact I'd suspect it'd actually have a very negative effect instead. Consider The 1975's Matt Healy, who recently protested Malaysia's anti-LGBTQ+ laws by kissing a male band member onstage at a Malaysian festival. It was a remarkable confrontation to homophobes and to the country's hostile anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. Yet the main sentiment by LGBTQ+ Malaysians was that it was entirely unhelpful (the festival was immediately cancelled) and puts them at heightened risk from the backlash of zealots and those in power who could crack down against their communities to win political points in a conservative country.

I get that Henderson's past actions now seem hollow and it's fair to criticise his pretty dishonest justification for going there, but it feels unhelpful to state that he or other players must stand up for LGBTQ+ rights in the places where they're most oppressed otherwise it means nothing when they do it in the places where it's safe to speak out. He and others can still create a much more positive impact for the world doing these gestures in the UK, onstage of the most watched football competition in the world.

 

[Rockets Redglare]

Apparently, the LGBT movement(at least a very noisy part of it) wants you to support respect for gay people only if you are willing to make all your life decisions, including professional and family ones, with their cause in mind as the primarly factor.

Sounds very dumb; if I was a leader of a social movement, I'd be as welcoming as possible.

Here’s an idea, don’t champion something if you’re going to abandon it as soon as more money is thrown your way.

I think people are forgetting he’d still be earning mega money in Europe, it’s not like it’s Saudi or the dole queue.

 

[Alex99]

Here’s an idea, don’t champion something if you’re going to abandon it as soon as more money is thrown your way.

I think people are forgetting he’d still be earning mega money in Europe, it’s not like it’s Saudi or the dole queue.

Henderson himself has very much tried to frame Saudi as basically being his only option to play football.

The first part of the interview is basically him skirting the question about interest from other teams.

 

[devaneios]

Here’s an idea, don’t champion something if you’re going to abandon it as soon as more money is thrown your way.

I don't know if he did it; maybe it's possible to play football in a country without absorb all their beliefs and forget your own.

It only proved that he isn't disposed to throw away tremendous financial opportunities because it's not the optimal decision from the gay community standpoint.

 

[Rooney in Paris]

Re-reading some of it, and what a car crash of an interview that is. Prior to this I never liked Henderson because I think he's incredibly averaged and his performances were elevated by a strong collective, and I hate his hard-man act, but I could at least respect that off the field he seemed like a decent enough person.

Turns out it's all a load of piss and he's a posturing hypocrite who happens to seemingly not be very bright or self aware.

 

[Alex99]

Re-reading some of it, and what a car crash of an interview that is. Prior to this I never liked Henderson because I think he's incredibly averaged and his performances were elevated by a strong collective, and I hate his hard-man act, but I could at least respect that off the field he seemed like a decent enough person.

Turns out it's all a load of piss and he's a posturing hypocrite who happens to seemingly not be very bright or self aware.

I keep going back to it because it's just so, so bad.

My favourite bits were:

• Saying for the 15th time that "surely it's a positive thing that I've gone to Saudi Arabia?" and the interviewer going "I don't know."
• Talking about how the workers the Qataris arranged for them to meet had nothing but positive things to say about working in Qatar, the interviewer pointing out that it was almost certainly a staged meeting to make the Qataris look good, and Henderson just going "well, I had a good experience."
• "I've gone above and beyond to help them. I've worn the laces. I've worn the armband."
• Saying a big motivator for him going to Saudi Arabia was so he could be a driver of change, immediately following that up by saying he won't actually do or say anything as that would be disrespectful to the Saudis, then adding that he didn't actually want to change anything in the UK either.