That swap is hardly a more attacking change. Taking off Davies and leaving Reguilon on would have been.
anyway if you watched the match you’d know Spurs had zero desire to score a 2nd, it was attack v defence all match practically.
Jose Mourinho Sack Watch | Sacked per 19-04
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anyway if you watched the match you’d know Spurs had zero desire to score a 2nd, it was attack v defence all match practically.
I think so as well. We barely crossed the half way line. I remember thinking that I'd never seen United set up that way before. As though we were terrified of Liverpool. As if they were the best team in Europe and we were a Division 2 team. It was insulting to everyone associated with the club.
The draw and the 2 dropped points that gave City the impetus wasn't as disastrous as the damage it must have done internally. I can't imagine anyone in that lineup being pleased with having to play that way against what was at that point a much weaker Liverpool team than we were.
Looks like should have gone 8 at the back instead
Ah that's very interesting and makes total sense actually.
didn’t a newspaper offer a reward to the first person to score against Chelsea that season?
Nope. I forgot about it, but that's misleading to say it was an attacking substitution. Reguilon played the whole game as a LW (and not at LB). That was a like for like change.
Bergwijn seems to have been given a rest this game, or there is also a theory that it was punishment dropping for his two missed chances against Liverpool.
You and the other anti-Jose continuously posting in this thread should know by now what his tactic fundamentals are.
Aka Tactical Periodization consists in giving the players the power to interpret different stages of the game. This approach makes them feel with more responsability in the tactical plan but can go wrong if the player is not suited to the style or doesn't have enough ambition.
In other words, players are very much responsible for changing into a defensive low block but are supposed to work as a unit. That is why you see the likes of Hojberg, Zanetti, Kane etc to work so well in this methodoly while some others not so much. Obviously there is more to it and Jose still is the main responsible of the strategy and so on but you get the idea. It's not a rigid system where players have clearly defined roles and movements like with Guardiola.
That pool game in the 2nd season is something I will never forgive Jose for.
I was in UK that week and drove down from London with my wife to catch that game. Was the first time I saw United in the flesh. (Didn't get tickets to the away end though).
I was so excited to see that game after a string of 4-0 wins. We didn't play any football that game and made Pool look like a world class team. One of my worst football memories.
We should have at least had a go. Despite that, the reality was that the team was 100% behind Jose and they really celebrated that draw. I remember Jones walking off the pitch with his hand in the air.
We did what Jose asked and ended 17 points off the top. That's when they would have lost faith.
Hes big Sam with kane and son.
Found that gem on twitter
Found that gem on twitter
Saw this post on the Spurs forum someone mentioned here, and it's pretty much exactly like a post I made while he was our manager.
The "Win at all costs regardless of quality of football" mentality was something I never understood about our fans when he was the manager. Football is supposed to be about entertainment. Winning, for you as a fan, does very little in the grand scheme of things. What brings joy is what you see in the ninety minutes that you sit and watch. It really is eerie how exactly the same discussions are happening among the Spurs fans now. Mourinho really forces you to assess what it is you really get out of football as a fan.
I think it comes down to what you value. But personally I don't get the win at any cost, play whatever football it takes mentality and desperation that a lot have.
I want Spurs to win matches and trophies as much as anyone but the actual football is what you invest many many hours of your week/month/year/life watching and cant just be disregarded. You watch it primarily as entertainment after all and have to find some value and affinity in that.
Winning a trophy isn't the be all and end all. Ultimate redemption. Ultimate glory. Life and football is complete. Call it what you will. It's like a lot of people need Spurs to win a trophy as if it's validation that it has all been worthwhile and they can bask in it forever. I just don't see it like that.
It's one segment of the bigger picture. Football happens, I still have to get up at 4.30am the next morning for my 12 hour shift at work. Deal with the wife, the kids, the bills, a terminally ill parent, whatever else life is throwing at me that week, blah blah blah. My point being that win or lose, for me personally football then goes back into the mix extremely fecking quickly and I don't dwell on it. If Spurs lose a cup final, as they often have, I get up the next day and I'm over it. If Spurs won one - League Cup, the League itself, even the Champions League - truth be told I'd be over it as well. Life moves on and I'm focusing on other stuff. But that's just me.
I'd be buzzing if we win a pot but it's one day in life. For me I watch football as entertainment and as something to enjoy and hopefully to be played to my tastes. I don't think a trophy wipes out the cumulative effect of twice a week, almost every week, being pissed off for a couple of hours by rubbish football. Others will agree, others will not agree. And round and round we will go on this...
I want Spurs to win matches and trophies as much as anyone but the actual football is what you invest many many hours of your week/month/year/life watching and cant just be disregarded. You watch it primarily as entertainment after all and have to find some value and affinity in that.
Winning a trophy isn't the be all and end all. Ultimate redemption. Ultimate glory. Life and football is complete. Call it what you will. It's like a lot of people need Spurs to win a trophy as if it's validation that it has all been worthwhile and they can bask in it forever. I just don't see it like that.
It's one segment of the bigger picture. Football happens, I still have to get up at 4.30am the next morning for my 12 hour shift at work. Deal with the wife, the kids, the bills, a terminally ill parent, whatever else life is throwing at me that week, blah blah blah. My point being that win or lose, for me personally football then goes back into the mix extremely fecking quickly and I don't dwell on it. If Spurs lose a cup final, as they often have, I get up the next day and I'm over it. If Spurs won one - League Cup, the League itself, even the Champions League - truth be told I'd be over it as well. Life moves on and I'm focusing on other stuff. But that's just me.
I'd be buzzing if we win a pot but it's one day in life. For me I watch football as entertainment and as something to enjoy and hopefully to be played to my tastes. I don't think a trophy wipes out the cumulative effect of twice a week, almost every week, being pissed off for a couple of hours by rubbish football. Others will agree, others will not agree. And round and round we will go on this...
The "Win at all costs regardless of quality of football" mentality was something I never understood about our fans when he was the manager. Football is supposed to be about entertainment. Winning, for you as a fan, does very little in the grand scheme of things. What brings joy is what you see in the ninety minutes that you sit and watch. It really is eerie how exactly the same discussions are happening among the Spurs fans now. Mourinho really forces you to assess what it is you really get out of football as a fan.
I would take it one step further. What success are we talking about?
Some clubs count the league cup as a success but most elite clubs do not. Winning the league cup and community shield while not even challenging for the league is not a success by any stretch of the imagination.
You would think that we were being offered the choice between winning the league (playing awful football) or falling just short while playing brilliant football.
Over the past few years, he has provided neither success nor good football. Over the past 9 and a half seasons, he has exactly 1 league title and a whopping 0 Champions League final appearances.
I'll be honest with you, even if he was winning league titles at United by grinding out 1-0 wins with scoring in the first minute and defending for the next 89, I still couldn't say I would be happy with that.
In isolation the club winning a big trophy does nothing for me. I don't get a medal. My life doesn't get any better because United have 4 CL's instead of 3. I watch football for entertainment, because I enjoy the sport. Naturally, being entertaining and playing quality football usually means that you end up winning stuff anyway, so that's well and good, but the winning regardless of the style of football mentality just doesn't do it for me.
Admittedly, most managers in world football exist within a middle ground between focusing on the result and trying to get a good style of play in. Jose is just one of those on the absolute end of the spectrum, where the stuff his teams put out these days, is for me, unwatchable.
Big teams need to win though. Im all for entertainment but theres a balance there. Just because its Jose doesnt mean its all about beautiful football all of a sudden
Fair enough. If you can't enjoy watching it, then there's no point in doing so. Sports are a form of entertainment, in their essence. I don't feel as strongly about it as you do. If we were guaranteed an important trophy (the Champions League or league title) I'd be happy with it even if it were less enjoyable due to the football on display.
I do understand your point, though. I find myself going back and rewatching the 2006-2007 season review a lot more than the 2008-2009 one even though we were a better team in the latter and won more. But the football wasn't as aesthetically pleasing and rewatching the highlights isn't as fun.
Read my second post in reply to the other poster. I think I addressed this there.
Edit: Just to summarize, when you play good quality football, more often than not you win anyway. The vast majority of successful managers have always had at least a decent quality of football, so it's moot point to discuss winning or good football. Jose is just one of those managers that makes it seem like you can only have one of the two.
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Jose coming out with the same old crap he did for us, moaning about the team not being ambitious or aggressive enough after going one nil up.
It's incredibly disingenuous as it happens too frequently for it not to be the approach he drills into the players, ie. grab one and sit back. Happened so much with us, and we'd often end up conceding the equaliser towards the end. Made watching us horrendous. Then Jose would come out and pretend it was always the players doing, and a lot of us believed him for a while.
It's incredibly disingenuous as it happens too frequently for it not to be the approach he drills into the players, ie. grab one and sit back. Happened so much with us, and we'd often end up conceding the equaliser towards the end. Made watching us horrendous. Then Jose would come out and pretend it was always the players doing, and a lot of us believed him for a while.
48.78%
That's Jose's current win rate in the league with Tottenham. Terrible.
That's Jose's current win rate in the league with Tottenham. Terrible.
Exactly. He litetally came out after the Arsenal game and said why would they attack or keep the ball and leave themselves open? Now it backfires hes all about going for the second goal
Does Kane have to play this pseudo 10 role every game? Sometimes just let him be the killer 9 he is. That would require other players getting on the ball and actually trying to find a way to get the ball into the penalty box which Jose has no intention off.
Spurs fans that I know are starting to lose patience now. Got all excited by a few ugly wins and the 6-1 that gave them IMO a false league position and they are now reverting to type.
They are demonstrating the same traits as United did under him. The whole atmosphere around coaching, preparation and actual performance is designed to stop the opposition and win ugly, and that seeps into the mindset of the squad to the point where they are incapable of doing anything different, else they face the public wrath of the manager.
They are demonstrating the same traits as United did under him. The whole atmosphere around coaching, preparation and actual performance is designed to stop the opposition and win ugly, and that seeps into the mindset of the squad to the point where they are incapable of doing anything different, else they face the public wrath of the manager.
We know that there are a section of football fans who really have no interest in the sport, outside of their own team, and its those who are happy to have someone like Jose in charge.They can watch a game and do not give a toss about what they are actually watching on the pitch. All they care about is wether or not their team won. As black and white and souless as that.
Each to their own and all that, but I can't help thinking those fans are missing out on so much of what football and sports in general are all about.
I can't think of any other area of arts, entertainment, hobbies, where people have no interest in the quality of what they are actually watching, listening to etc.
Each to their own and all that, but I can't help thinking those fans are missing out on so much of what football and sports in general are all about.
I can't think of any other area of arts, entertainment, hobbies, where people have no interest in the quality of what they are actually watching, listening to etc.
So a lot of his teams default to defending despite not doing as much before or after him and are more to blame?
Or Jose is being let down by his players
Little confused at this post as it comes of as excusing Jose's comments and pushing responsibility to the players for the way they play
For me fun is when there's something on the line.
Last 3 games that decides the title is a nail bitting match it'll be fun to watch. I dont care if we park the bus if we eventually win. Cl final.
What good is a beautiful match winning 4-0 with nothing to play.
We could play the best football ever but it'll suck if we got sucker punched like bayern in 1999.
Winning first. Beauty second.
If i want entertainment i follow Barcelona, or whoever provides the flavor of the year football. United is not about entertainment for me.
surely not JoseDepends if they push on afterwards though. 6 months after their last trophy win they were bottom of the league (I know that was to do with Ramos and chaotic transfer window) so they had to rip up the whole model and start again and it worked out alright.
When Mourinho won the two league cups at Chelsea he won the league a few months after. Not going to happen at Spurs. In 16/17 he won the europa aswell, that is possible for Spurs.
There's no way Poch spell at Spurs would've been seen as more amazing if they'd traded CL final or a couple of top 4 finishes for league cup win. He made that statement himself although I disagreed with him on lumping FA cup into that aswell given Spurs history in it.
Arsenal win FA cups every other year and no one outside there really cares as they never push on and use it to win the league or at least challenge for it.
Would Harry Kane really stay at Spurs if they won league cup this season but finished 5th and didn't win europa? If anything I think that would more likely close his chapter at Spurs as one of best strikers in world football simply can't be going years without playing in the champions league.
Worse than Tim Sherwood
No one would want that.
I'm not excusing Jose at all. It's entirely his responsability and I'm also disappointed with some of his choices recently but his coaching methodology is a lot about giving players the tactical understanding for them to better grasp the different situations throughout the game.
It's part of the reason people always thought Jose prefers older players while the truth is he needs experienced and mature players that can read the game. Which naturally means most of them aren't young.
I think most people are somewhere in between where you stand and where @Cloud7 stands.
Football is about more than results for most, but it isn't entertaining if you're team constantly loses. And there's nothing entertaining about being on the receiving end of a last minute comeback.
6-1 is a result produced by Lamela’s behavior. I don’t blame Martial at all because he did what a normal people do. I just feel so disappointed that the football governing body for so long doesn’t do anything to punish the cheating behavior like Lamela did. It is on TV and watched by the kids and youngsters. You cannot find someone more low than him! And somehow, it becomes a smart trick to gain advantage in the game. So pathetic really. I now simply think Spurs is a club which tolerates such behavior and is a definitely a cnut, well, same as PSG, a bunch of cnuts.
Nah just did a quick Google and the Pool 0-0 was the week before the Hudds game. As many people pointed out after the Hudds loss where we created about 2 chances, that was a consequence of the players losing all momentum after a flying start which saw us score 23 in 7 games because of Mourinho’s stupidity in making us play like Stoke against an inferior side.
Oh right! I do agree, regardless, that the Pool game was the one that killed all momentum. Huddersfield loss, before or after, was a blip rather than anything else.
Fair and thanks for the explanation. I do agree with the bit about experienced players. I think he's missing a beat with Kane and son probably in their prime and having a solid midfield and a solid keeper.
His style imo is outdated and football is leaving him behind. Teams that win CL and Leagues now generally play to outscore the other team rather than try and sneak a result
Yeah, and then the Sevilla loss a few months later topped up with the worst presser I’ve ever seen from a United manager straight away meant his job was essentially untenable all the way until his sacking in December.
If, by the end of the season, he can get it to 50%, that'll leapfrog his treble at Inter as his 2nd greatest achievement in football. If he gets it to 55%, then it'll be in contention as his greatest ever achievement alongside finishing 2nd with one of the most expensive squads ever assembled.
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Nobody is that extreme, just that with mourinho there's no middle ground. You either love him or hate him
Off course. Just laughing at the purist on both sides. It's as if it's ok to play superb football while losing just as if it's ok to park the bus.
Nobody is that extreme, just that with mourinho there's no middle ground. You either love him or hate him
It’s going to be interesting to see if Fulham will be able to break down this resolute Spurs team. Jose is currently going through the team talk in great detail in how he needs bergwijn and Moura to track Fulham’s full backs coming forward and nullify their threat. Kane is being told to drop into the midfield to congest any spaces and not allow Fulham to get in behind. Will be fascinating to watch.
Just remember that when it works, it's Jose's genius. When it doesn't, it's the players fault.
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