Jose Mourinho Sack Watch | Sacked per 19-04

[united_99]

He's old, people. Simple as that

I get your point, but he just turned 58, not 68!

 

[Bastian]

He believes(not wrongly) that the team that makes fewest mistakes wins. So his focus is on limiting mistakes. That's why he's so conservative and negative - it's all aimed at reducing big mistakes(for that matter, Klopp and the modern german school also follow the same principle, but take it in a completely different direction. Instead of limiting their team's mistakes, they focus on forcing the opponent to make them). And the truth is players and teams are better than ever. Modern teams rarely make mistakes unless you force them to. So Mourinho's approach, it actually has a much smaller margin for error than Klopp's or Guardiola's. But again, he's just too old to change now

As for training methods, mourinho's teams don't look like teams coached with the ball. And it is well known that Mourinho did comparatively little training with the ball, even 10 years ago. Only these days, with the modern players and their fitness, and better coaching across the board at every level, if you don't know what to do with the ball the result will be, spurs. A team that struggles to mount more than 4-5 attacks per game against any opposition that isn't hilariously overwhelmed by the talent disparity. Winning in 2021 with 4 attacks is really, really, really, really hard to pull off.

as for man management, well, yeah. Again, he's old. Used to work with a different generation of players that were less curious, less professionals(in the most literal sense), more conditioned to just do what they're told and not ask questions, with access to significantly less information, etc. Mourinho has *always* found a player to throw under the bus, for example. It's one of the staples of his man management, find someone he doesn't need and then paint him as a bad influence, an enemy, in an effort to further strengthen his bond to *his* players, and between them. That worked with the older generations. With the currents one though, they see through the bs and it becomes counter-productive instead

Again, great analysis.

 

[giorno]

I get your point, but he just turned 58, not 68!

He's been around for 20 years, most of it at the top of the game

Plus, everyone ages differently

 

[Halftrack]

There's really no need for anyone to clown on Glaston, he manages it just fine by himself.

 

[Ludens the Red]

He believes(not wrongly) that the team that makes fewest mistakes wins. So his focus is on limiting mistakes. That's why he's so conservative and negative - it's all aimed at reducing big mistakes(for that matter, Klopp and the modern german school also follow the same principle, but take it in a completely different direction. Instead of limiting their team's mistakes, they focus on forcing the opponent to make them). And the truth is players and teams are better than ever. Modern teams rarely make mistakes unless you force them to. So Mourinho's approach, it actually has a much smaller margin for error than Klopp's or Guardiola's. But again, he's just too old to change now

As for training methods, mourinho's teams don't look like teams coached with the ball. And it is well known that Mourinho did comparatively little training with the ball, even 10 years ago. Only these days, with the modern players and their fitness, and better coaching across the board at every level, if you don't know what to do with the ball the result will be, spurs. A team that struggles to mount more than 4-5 attacks per game against any opposition that isn't hilariously overwhelmed by the talent disparity. Winning in 2021 with 4 attacks is really, really, really, really hard to pull off.

as for man management, well, yeah. Again, he's old. Used to work with a different generation of players that were less curious, less professionals(in the most literal sense), more conditioned to just do what they're told and not ask questions, with access to significantly less information, etc. Mourinho has *always* found a player to throw under the bus, for example. It's one of the staples of his man management, find someone he doesn't need and then paint him as a bad influence, an enemy, in an effort to further strengthen his bond to *his* players, and between them. That worked with the older generations. With the currents one though, they see through the bs and it becomes counter-productive instead

This all reads well and makes sense from a certain viewpoint but major plot hole in it is that Mourinho was a manager winning major league titles 5/6/7 years ago.

Football has not changed that dramatically since then. After all he’s competing against the likes of Klopp and Pep who were around then and haven’t changed their approaches much in the last seven years or so. The Dortmund and Barcelona team he came up against were two of the fittest teams ever.

Also you speak about ‘older generations’. If you were talking about late 90’s, early 00’s then yeah I think there has been an obvious change in a footballers mental make up since then but since five years ago? Not so much.

I do think it’s a little overstated that Mourinhos methods are simply outdated and that football has advanced beyond him. I feel it’s more so that Mourinho is not using the same methods he was using that made him a success. He has changed and for the worse and he hasn’t been at teams anywhere near the quality of his teams of the past. Mentality and ability wise.

I went back a page and saw this post form you which I think actually hits the nail on the head.

Because back then he was younger, hungrier and inspitational, his players would run through a wall for him. He was also pragmatic, his ability to read games was exceptional and he was fearless. This kind of park the bus and try to nick a goal on one or 2 counters was something he did very rarely. His teams were significantly more proactive about trying to score, much more aggressive when they needed to be and generally the way they played against bottom of the league vs big away games was very different. His chelsea went to camp nou in 2007 and forced barcelona to play on the counter

with inter, the way they played in the league vs CL was like two different teams. Even in madrid he was still pragmatic enough to mix it up, even at camp nou

Now he's old, hunger has been replaced by fear and he struggles to connect with his players. He's no longer pragmatic either - it's no longer about winning, but winning his way. He's no different than a guardiola, only his own philosophy is based on fear

To all that, add in the way football evolved, players are fitter and faster than ever, and his playing style is just old. Much is made of Atletico Madrid and Simeone, but just one look at their teams is enough to see the difference: atletico madrid fly all over the pitch. They may play the same way, but they do so with significantly more energy and high intensity, which is why it works(that, plus simeone is very much the kind of inspirational leader Mou used to be). More than anything, it's his training methods that appear to be obsolete

Fully agree with this theory. I think due to him knowing he no longer has the best team(s) he’s gone to an even more extreme version of himself. Ultra defensive, focusing more on small and minor margins in games. Overly focusing on the opposition. He’s lost patience and becomes fed up of his players far too quickly (See Shaw, Ali, Bale)
I don’t think he’s lost a desire to do well but he seems like a man who is now so insecure that it’s completely compromised his ability to manage and coach properly. People point to Madrid as being the turning point, but I think it was that third season at Chelsea. The worse he’d done before then was finish 3rd, at that point at Chelsea he was in a relegation battle and losing every single week.

 

[1966]

Spurs were by a mile the more passive and inferior team and absolutely deserved to lose.

Mourinho refuses to learn his lesson. His entire style of football relies on his defenders making no mistakes which is always going to fail when you don’t have good defenders. If he were really a pragmatist he’d devise a style that actually played to the strengths of his squad.

Agree. Also hello fellow England supporter! (I know there are lots on here but you're the only other person I've seen with it on their profile)

 

[Wittmann45]

Spurs were by a mile the more passive and inferior team and absolutely deserved to lose.

Mourinho refuses to learn his lesson. His entire style of football relies on his defenders making no mistakes which is always going to fail when you don’t have good defenders. If he were really a pragmatist he’d devise a style that actually played to the strengths of his squad.

I feel like it is not that uncommon for people who are seen as pragmatic to get stuck in their own ways eventually

 

[1966]

So many Spurs fans on here argued with me their second 11 is better than ours

Talking about the best strike force in Son Kane Bale

One of these things is not like the other.

Kane, Son, Bale was theoretically a world class strikeforce and could've easily been such if Bale had lived up to the fairly reasonable expectation of an unretired player. If Bale could find something approximating his top level, that would be one of the best front threes in the world. Probably the best in the PL. But then Kane is my first choice #9 in world football so that informs my assessment of the trio as a whole.

As for the first statement, it's patently ridiculous (but then I never actually saw anyone say differently). Utd's first XI is considerably better than that of Spurs. Same with the second XI. Spurs are the single most unbalanced team in the league IMO. The gap in quality between Kane and Son and some of their plodders like Dier and Bergwijn is enormous.

 

[Jev]

I love seeing this guy fail so much. I was loathe to admit earlier in the season that he was doing a decent job and had pulled a masterstroke in converting Kane into a playmaker. It's nice to see him regress to his negative self. He's a miserable, stubborn old dinosaur who has no business managing at anywhere near top level anymore. I'm so happy we got rid of him.

 

[renandstimpyfan83]

The look on Luiz's face before he realises it's a joke tells you so much about the real Mourinho. Hazard also looks relieved and he's not even the one in the firing line

That’s really similar to his weird interruption to Son’s interview this season. I still can’t believe how many people bought into the jovial Mourinho facade after that Amazon “documentary”.

 

[Mastadon]

I said he wouldn’t be able to compete with the limited budget he has at Spurs. All the years he was beating on Wenger who had a similar budget to what he has now as if they were on an even footing. Not so easy without the unlimited budget now is it José?

 

[Tapori]

Because back then he was younger, hungrier and inspitational, his players would run through a wall for him. He was also pragmatic, his ability to read games was exceptional and he was fearless. This kind of park the bus and try to nick a goal on one or 2 counters was something he did very rarely. His teams were significantly more proactive about trying to score, much more aggressive when they needed to be and generally the way they played against bottom of the league vs big away games was very different. His chelsea went to camp nou in 2007 and forced barcelona to play on the counter

with inter, the way they played in the league vs CL was like two different teams. Even in madrid he was still pragmatic enough to mix it up, even at camp nou

Now he's old, hunger has been replaced by fear and he struggles to connect with his players. He's no longer pragmatic either - it's no longer about winning, but winning his way. He's no different than a guardiola, only his own philosophy is based on fear

To all that, add in the way football evolved, players are fitter and faster than ever, and his playing style is just old. Much is made of Atletico Madrid and Simeone, but just one look at their teams is enough to see the difference: atletico madrid fly all over the pitch. They may play the same way, but they do so with significantly more energy and high intensity, which is why it works(that, plus simeone is very much the kind of inspirational leader Mou used to be). More than anything, it's his training methods that appear to be obsolete

Superb post

 

[Wittmann45]

I don’t think he’s lost a desire to do well but he seems like a man who is now so insecure that it’s completely compromised his ability to manage and coach properly. People point to Madrid as being the turning point, but I think it was that third season at Chelsea. The worse he’d done before then was finish 3rd, at that point at Chelsea he was in a relegation battle and losing every single week.

I don't have the greatest memory of Jose's career at Madrid and Chelsea, but at Porto, the first stint at Chelsea and Inter, he always seemed to really understand how to create a siege mentality and squad cohesion through uber-confidence. His players also seemed to be willing to run through a wall for him, especially the star players. He was also ultra confident and while he never was too keen on taking blame, he was, like Sir Alex, good at protecting his squad and diverting blame to others.

I feel like the two sackings played out in pretty similar ways. Second season success followed by destruction in the third year where he wore out his welcome. Also, something that was new was that at both Madrid and his second Chelsea stint, from what I remember, when the squads completely turned on Jose, it was his big players that did so. It is like he was trying to create that siege mentality by turning the players on one another. He also started taking shots at his own players in the media - perhaps he did so at Porto and Chelsea the first time, but it seemed like his confidence turned to petty scrabbling and he couldn't accept blame for his own short comings. Obviously that continued at United and it continues now at Spurs.

Madrid damaged him for sure, but maybe his fall at Chelsea, where he was a literal god, was what finished him off.

 

[Tapori]

He believes(not wrongly) that the team that makes fewest mistakes wins. So his focus is on limiting mistakes. That's why he's so conservative and negative - it's all aimed at reducing big mistakes(for that matter, Klopp and the modern german school also follow the same principle, but take it in a completely different direction. Instead of limiting their team's mistakes, they focus on forcing the opponent to make them). And the truth is players and teams are better than ever. Modern teams rarely make mistakes unless you force them to. So Mourinho's approach, it actually has a much smaller margin for error than Klopp's or Guardiola's. But again, he's just too old to change now

As for training methods, mourinho's teams don't look like teams coached with the ball. And it is well known that Mourinho did comparatively little training with the ball, even 10 years ago. Only these days, with the modern players and their fitness, and better coaching across the board at every level, if you don't know what to do with the ball the result will be, spurs. A team that struggles to mount more than 4-5 attacks per game against any opposition that isn't hilariously overwhelmed by the talent disparity. Winning in 2021 with 4 attacks is really, really, really, really hard to pull off.

as for man management, well, yeah. Again, he's old. Used to work with a different generation of players that were less curious, less professionals(in the most literal sense), more conditioned to just do what they're told and not ask questions, with access to significantly less information, etc. Mourinho has *always* found a player to throw under the bus, for example. It's one of the staples of his man management, find someone he doesn't need and then paint him as a bad influence, an enemy, in an effort to further strengthen his bond to *his* players, and between them. That worked with the older generations. With the currents one though, they see through the bs and it becomes counter-productive instead

How much, if any, and indeed why did his time at Madrid change Mourinho for the worse?
It's as if his father passing + Madrid has completely shattered him at some level added to how much football has changed in the past 10 years.

Mourinho will always be in the top-tier of all time managers but his apparent decline is difficult to watch knowing the heights he has reached repeatedly. At United, I really wanted to see him anew, a wiser more experienced man capable of fusing his best attacking play under Chelsea, Madrid and Porto and Inter, with his excellent reading of a match, man-management, tactics in big games and mentality allied to our historic winning mentality and the added honour of restoring United to something Sir Alex would be proud of.
Had he taken this after Sir Alex departed, perhaps we may have seen this.

What we got was flashes of old brilliance descending into a cantankerous tribute act that culminated in the worst aspects of his managerial styles for a top-tier level that he himself had set.

There is no way the younger Mourinho would have persisted with say, a Lukaku during his quite frankly ridiculous run of matches where the poor lad couldn't even control the ball properly or would have thrown Rashford, Martial and Shaw to the Wolves.
It's a lesson for elite level managers. Adapt or fall away. He is still a solid manager but my days, it's like watching Clough at times.. without the warmth.

 

[Tapori]

I don't have the greatest memory of Jose's career at Madrid and Chelsea, but at Porto, the first stint at Chelsea and Inter, he always seemed to really understand how to create a siege mentality and squad cohesion through uber-confidence. His players also seemed to be willing to run through a wall for him, especially the star players. He was also ultra confident and while he never was too keen on taking blame, he was, like Sir Alex, good at protecting his squad and diverting blame to others.

I feel like the two sackings played out in pretty similar ways. Second season success followed by destruction in the third year where he wore out his welcome. Also, something that was new was that at both Madrid and his second Chelsea stint, from what I remember, when the squads completely turned on Jose, it was his big players that did so. It is like he was trying to create that siege mentality by turning the players on one another. He also started taking shots at his own players in the media - perhaps he did so at Porto and Chelsea the first time, but it seemed like his confidence turned to petty scrabbling and he couldn't accept blame for his own short comings. Obviously that continued at United and it continues now at Spurs.

Madrid damaged him for sure, but maybe his fall at Chelsea, where he was a literal god, was what finished him off.

I understand that, but what I don't understand is why the continuation of terrible tactics? His attacking play was never this bad... well unless you include the worst parts of his time at United.

 

[Tapori]

This all reads well and makes sense from a certain viewpoint but major plot hole in it is that Mourinho was a manager winning major league titles 5/6/7 years ago.

Football has not changed that dramatically since then. After all he’s competing against the likes of Klopp and Pep who were around then and haven’t changed their approaches much in the last seven years or so. The Dortmund and Barcelona team he came up against were two of the fittest teams ever.

Also you speak about ‘older generations’. If you were talking about late 90’s, early 00’s then yeah I think there has been an obvious change in a footballers mental make up since then but since five years ago? Not so much.

I do think it’s a little overstated that Mourinhos methods are simply outdated and that football has advanced beyond him. I feel it’s more so that Mourinho is not using the same methods he was using that made him a success. He has changed and for the worse and he hasn’t been at teams anywhere near the quality of his teams of the past. Mentality and ability wise.

I went back a page and saw this post form you which I think actually hits the nail on the head.

Fully agree with this theory. I think due to him knowing he no longer has the best team(s) he’s gone to an even more extreme version of himself. Ultra defensive, focusing more on small and minor margins in games. Overly focusing on the opposition. He’s lost patience and becomes fed up of his players far too quickly (See Shaw, Ali, Bale)
I don’t think he’s lost a desire to do well but he seems like a man who is now so insecure that it’s completely compromised his ability to manage and coach properly. People point to Madrid as being the turning point, but I think it was that third season at Chelsea. The worse he’d done before then was finish 3rd, at that point at Chelsea he was in a relegation battle and losing every single week.

Never considered that re: Chelsea stint. Is this when he returned?

 

[adexkola]

The word pragmatic has to be the most abused word in football nowadays.

 

[giorno]

This all reads well and makes sense from a certain viewpoint but major plot hole in it is that Mourinho was a manager winning major league titles 5/6/7 years ago.

To be clear. He's not a bad manager. He's no longer a great one, but he's still not a bad manager either. Simply put, in his prime he was one of the rare managers that gave him team a real edge over the competition. Now he doesn't, like most managers.

Regarding his last title win with chelsea, it was actually a pretty clear picture of his decline. They were aggressive and fearless and looking every bit like a good mourinho side right until the spurs game. And then...they turned into an hyper negative, scared side that was terrified of opening up and had to rely entirely on Hazard, Fabregas and Diego Costa to pull off wins. A team that was dominated, at home, by a 10 man manchester city. And then by PSG in CL, culminating in elimination. They won the league anyways, because they had Hazard, Diego Costa, Fabregas, Matic and Courtois, and the premier league was *weak* at the time. Behind the curve with old and/or mediocre managers

Football has not changed that dramatically since then. After all he’s competing against the likes of Klopp and Pep who were around then and haven’t changed their approaches much in the last seven years or so. The Dortmund and Barcelona team he came up against were two of the fittest teams ever.

Football *has* changed significantly compared to 5 years ago. 5 years is an eternity in football, when players careers last around 10 years or so at the top. And his record against guardiola and klopp was really poor even back then

Also you speak about ‘older generations’. If you were talking about late 90’s, early 00’s then yeah I think there has been an obvious change in a footballers mental make up since then but since five years ago? Not so much.

And how did his chelsea stint end? How many players from that chelsea side are still at the top?

I don’t think he’s lost a desire to do well but he seems like a man who is now so insecure that it’s completely compromised his ability to manage and coach properly.

Definitely

How much, if any, and indeed why did his time at Madrid change Mourinho for the worse?
It's as if his father passing + Madrid has completely shattered him at some level added to how much football has changed in the past 10 years.

A lot. It was a combination if factors, the most important of which was the media's fawning over Guardiola and his football. That's what hardened his stance, more than anything else. And then he lost the dressing room, for the first time in his career. The experience did a lot of damage, for a man who craves recognition and cares deeply about reputation

 

[renandstimpyfan83]

I genuinely think the game has moved on and he has no idea how to adapt, much like Arsene Wenger. It's no shame, happens to most managers and he'll still go down as one of the greats. This makes me realise just how special SAF was, top of his game for 20+ years! God I miss that man!

Ferguson was smart enough to get new perspectives and went through Knox, Kidd, McClaren, Queiroz, Smith and Meulensteen to continually evolve and refresh his teams.

Wenger had only Pat Rice and Steve Bould as his assistants during his 20+ years at Arsenal, and there was no noticeable shift when Bould came in despite the prediction that he would make the team more solid.

Mourinho at his best had a stellar backroom staff including AVB and Rodgers. He also had Rui Faria with him for his entire career up until 2018, coincidentally(?) crashing and burning at United in the season after he left. It’s no surprise that the older he’s gotten, the more stubborn he’s become with his style of football without a strong assistant to bounce off of.

 

[renandstimpyfan83]

The word pragmatic has to be the most abused word in football nowadays.

“Reactionary”.

Has gone from meaning very right wing politics to having a knee-jerk reaction to things that happen in football.

 

[renandstimpyfan83]

Agree. Also hello fellow England supporter! (I know there are lots on here but you're the only other person I've seen with it on their profile)

Being a kid in England during the 1990 World Cup there was only ever one choice but I’ve taken plenty of stick for it from my dad’s side of the family, especially during the 2008-2012 period!

 

[prateik]

Has he started throwing people under the bus to save his skin yet?

 

[RedIan]

Has he started throwing people under the bus to save his skin yet?

That is Joses biggest problem. he strikes me as a bullying control freak whose man management skills are lacking. He takes over A club all smiles and initially results go well.. once the honeymoon period is over his toxicity starts to seep out and players soon stop performing either due to his negative attitutude or due to his negative tactics. His public criticism of players as things go wrong is self defeating and the toxicity spreads and deepens..

 

[Sandikan]

I love seeing this guy fail so much. I was loathe to admit earlier in the season that he was doing a decent job and had pulled a masterstroke in converting Kane into a playmaker. It's nice to see him regress to his negative self. He's a miserable, stubborn old dinosaur who has no business managing at anywhere near top level anymore. I'm so happy we got rid of him.

The current scrutiny was on him late last season, and then this season early on they had a very short spell of games booting the goals. That seemed to seduce some knee jerkers into thinking that they were "genuine title contenders" as one paper called them!
In reality, even their 6-1 v us had loads of reasons- us being on pre season mode, down to ten for an hour, Maguire's head still abroad after his court case etc.

Big pressure if they can't beat West Brom today.

 

[Sandikan]

The word pragmatic has to be the most abused word in football nowadays.

Yep, I swear some people think it means something around the terms negative or cautious.

The actual definition is dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

There's nothing realistic or sensible about the way he sets this Tottenham team up and if anything it is totally based on the "theoretical consideration" Jose has of trying to limit his own team's mistakes and sit back awaiting a mistake from the opposition.

 

[Wittmann45]

That is Joses biggest problem. he strikes me as a bullying control freak whose man management skills are lacking. He takes over A club all smiles and initially results go well.. once the honeymoon period is over his toxicity starts to seep out and players soon stop performing either due to his negative attitutude or due to his negative tactics. His public criticism of players as things go wrong is self defeating and the toxicity spreads and deepens..

Which is weird because it was one of his strengths at Chelsea and Inter, and I assume Porto. He was known for being tactically innovative early in his career and being relatively versatile at Inter, but the strengths of his most successful teams is that there were squads of players that generally seemed to love, revere or respect Jose. He crafted squads that had strong winning mentalities.

 

[SecondFig]

Yep, I swear some people think it means something around the terms negative or cautious.

The actual definition is dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

There's nothing realistic or sensible about the way he sets this Tottenham team up and if anything it is totally based on the "theoretical consideration" Jose has of trying to limit his own team's mistakes and sit back awaiting a mistake from the opposition.

It's because for a while we associated "pragmatic football" with the tactics of managers like Dyche or Allardyce, managers who generally had demonstrably inferior players in terms of technique, so played well organised defensive football and relied upon route one to nick a goal. Given the players those managers had, that style of football was truly pragmatic.

But you're absolutely right, the way Mourinho plays isn't pragmatic at all

 

[Ludens the Red]

To be clear. He's not a bad manager. He's no longer a great one, but he's still not a bad manager either. Simply put, in his prime he was one of the rare managers that gave him team a real edge over the competition. Now he doesn't, like most managers.

Regarding his last title win with chelsea, it was actually a pretty clear picture of his decline. They were aggressive and fearless and looking every bit like a good mourinho side right until the spurs game. And then...they turned into an hyper negative, scared side that was terrified of opening up and had to rely entirely on Hazard, Fabregas and Diego Costa to pull off wins. A team that was dominated, at home, by a 10 man manchester city. And then by PSG in CL, culminating in elimination. They won the league anyways, because they had Hazard, Diego Costa, Fabregas, Matic and Courtois, and the premier league was *weak* at the time. Behind the curve with old and/or mediocre managers


Football *has* changed significantly compared to 5 years ago. 5 years is an eternity in football, when players careers last around 10 years or so at the top. And his record against guardiola and klopp was really poor even back then


And how did his chelsea stint end? How many players from that chelsea side are still at the top?


Definitely

A lot. It was a combination if factors, the most important of which was the media's fawning over Guardiola and his football. That's what hardened his stance, more than anything else. And then he lost the dressing room, for the first time in his career. The experience did a lot of damage, for a man who craves recognition and cares deeply about reputation

Yeah for sure, I don’t think he’s that bad either. I’ve even had a few disagreements on here that he wasn’t ‘that bad’ for us. But to put it bluntly he isn’t special anymore.
Fair point about the quality of the league at the time but even still the playing style of Chelsea in that first half of the season is still night and day to what we see now.

in regards to his record v klopp and pep. I wouldn’t even say what’s telling is so much the results, after all I think he’s beaten Pep more times at Spurs and United combined than he did at Real. It’s more the manner and pattern of these games. I remember Real going toe to toe with Dortmund in those amazing semi finals. I remember a copa deal Rey final in 2011 where his Real side again went toe to toe with Barca.
Now it’s like watching a relegation struggler park the bus against a top side. The two most recent wins with Spurs, even though impressive they were really lucky for large spells in the game, camped in their box. The same when we came from 2-0 down to bet City a few years ago.

Again going back to the theory that football has changed a lot in the last five years. In terms of that Chelsea squad of course most of those players are no longer relevant but I’d say that’s more just the natural process of ageing. When I speak about not much changing I mean more so the mentality of players and the managerial make up. The change from the mid noughties to now is far more dramatic. Different era of managers, players, style of play, refereeing etc whereas if you go back five years it’s not as much.

And yeah the Guardiola factor was quite a crucial turning point. Up until then Mourinho was the poster child for management. Now someone who worked with him had taken that status. Must have been a real kick in the balls.

I don't have the greatest memory of Jose's career at Madrid and Chelsea, but at Porto, the first stint at Chelsea and Inter, he always seemed to really understand how to create a siege mentality and squad cohesion through uber-confidence. His players also seemed to be willing to run through a wall for him, especially the star players. He was also ultra confident and while he never was too keen on taking blame, he was, like Sir Alex, good at protecting his squad and diverting blame to others.

I feel like the two sackings played out in pretty similar ways. Second season success followed by destruction in the third year where he wore out his welcome. Also, something that was new was that at both Madrid and his second Chelsea stint, from what I remember, when the squads completely turned on Jose, it was his big players that did so. It is like he was trying to create that siege mentality by turning the players on one another. He also started taking shots at his own players in the media - perhaps he did so at Porto and Chelsea the first time, but it seemed like his confidence turned to petty scrabbling and he couldn't accept blame for his own short comings. Obviously that continued at United and it continues now at Spurs.

Madrid damaged him for sure, but maybe his fall at Chelsea, where he was a literal god, was what finished him off.

Yeah, the mental make up of footballers had shifted by time he went to Real and back to Chelsea. At Chelsea first time round, he still had those hard characters Terry, Carvalho, Lampard, Essien who you know if he gave a bollocking to theyd take it on board and come out determined. By time he was at Real he was with players like Ramos, Ronaldo, Ozil who you need to be a bit more delicate with.
As you referred with his United and now Spurs spells is that he’s still trying to do it now even after it’s led to his downfall three times. Crazy. Calling out Dele Ali in public is 100% not going to lead to an upturn in Dele Ali performances.

Never considered that re: Chelsea stint. Is this when he returned?

Yeah the second spell. Mainly that January to December 2015 period.

 

[Yagami]

If we lose at the weekend then Jose will get sacked. That is my prediction.

You don't think he'll at least stay for the league cup final?

He's been backed more than Poch, anyway. He got 8 players in, right? Seems like Mourinho's already fell out or given up on most of them already. Just like here.

 

[renandstimpyfan83]

That is Joses biggest problem. he strikes me as a bullying control freak whose man management skills are lacking. He takes over A club all smiles and initially results go well.. once the honeymoon period is over his toxicity starts to seep out and players soon stop performing either due to his negative attitutude or due to his negative tactics. His public criticism of players as things go wrong is self defeating and the toxicity spreads and deepens..

That’s a long winded way of saying the obvious. He’s a cnut.

 

[Wittmann45]

Yeah, the mental make up of footballers had shifted by time he went to Real and back to Chelsea. At Chelsea first time round, he still had those hard characters Terry, Carvalho, Lampard, Essien who you know if he gave a bollocking to theyd take it on board and come out determined. By time he was at Real he was with players like Ramos, Ronaldo, Ozil who you need to be a bit more delicate with.
As you referred with his United and now Spurs spells is that he’s still trying to do it now even after it’s led to his downfall three times. Crazy. Calling out Dele Ali in public is 100% not going to lead to an upturn in Dele Ali performances.

I think that is one of the things that separates Jose from Sir Alex in terms of their longevity in the game and their ability to relate to players over decades of management.

I remember seeing a Zlatan interview where he talked about how much he appreciated Jose while at Inter. Evidently, the day before Zlatan was to be given some individual award, Inter was playing and at half time were struggling. Half time comes and Jose proceeds to rip into Zlatan and tells him that he should be ashamed to accept the award with the way he was playing. Zlatan says he loved it and went out in the second half to prove Jose wrong. He also mentioned that some players couldn't handle that sort of treatment, but that is the way Jose is/was.

Sir Alex was known for the hairdryers, but one thing a lot of former players mention is that he knew when to rip into a player and when to comfort them. He also seemed to have a really good grasp of which players could be criticized, as I think both Rooney and Rio have mentioned Sir Alex would rip into them as he knew they could take it and they would respond well to it. However, he also did it because at the same time it would send a message to players that couldn't handle such a direct confrontation. I think either Rooney or Rio mentioned that someone like Nani didn't respond well to direct criticism and it was better to send a needed message through criticizing a player that could handle it.

Maybe I am reading too much into interviews and I probably have a very simplistic understanding of players' mentalities, but it seems like Chelsea and Inter were perfect teams for Jose, to his credit mind you, but he hasn't been able to create the same sort of cohesion now. Individual players seem to love him and thrive under him, but he hasn't been able to create the same type of team mentality with a new group of players.

 

[renandstimpyfan83]

You don't think he'll at least stay for the league cup final?

He's been backed more than Poch, anyway. He got 8 players in, right? Seems like Mourinho's already fell out or given up on most of them already. Just like here.

I love Poch but his weakest aspect is his transfer market activity. He had the occasional hit (usually the cheaper buys) with Alderweireld, Trippier, Dele and Dier, and Son was a brilliant signing but his major strength was getting the best out of players who were already at the club and youngsters.

He really did buy some absolute dross at Spurs: https://www.transfermarkt.com/mauri...rainer/9044/plus/0/galerie/0?station_id=93545

 

[Paxi]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Guy Incognito]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

"but even some of those who like and respect him are not entirely happy with the way the team are playing"

Quelle surprise. It would be worse if 60,000 fans were there week in, week out. They'd be bored.

 

[DWelbz19]

Because back then he was younger, hungrier and inspitational, his players would run through a wall for him. He was also pragmatic, his ability to read games was exceptional and he was fearless. This kind of park the bus and try to nick a goal on one or 2 counters was something he did very rarely. His teams were significantly more proactive about trying to score, much more aggressive when they needed to be and generally the way they played against bottom of the league vs big away games was very different. His chelsea went to camp nou in 2007 and forced barcelona to play on the counter

with inter, the way they played in the league vs CL was like two different teams. Even in madrid he was still pragmatic enough to mix it up, even at camp nou

Now he's old, hunger has been replaced by fear and he struggles to connect with his players. He's no longer pragmatic either - it's no longer about winning, but winning his way. He's no different than a guardiola, only his own philosophy is based on fear

To all that, add in the way football evolved, players are fitter and faster than ever, and his playing style is just old. Much is made of Atletico Madrid and Simeone, but just one look at their teams is enough to see the difference: atletico madrid fly all over the pitch. They may play the same way, but they do so with significantly more energy and high intensity, which is why it works(that, plus simeone is very much the kind of inspirational leader Mou used to be). More than anything, it's his training methods that appear to be obsolete

Fear is the perfect word to encapsulate Mourinho’s football these days, I’d say. It’s as if he goes into most games now trying not to lose rather than proactively winning.

 

[DWelbz19]

You don't think he'll at least stay for the league cup final?

He's been backed more than Poch, anyway. He got 8 players in, right? Seems like Mourinho's already fell out or given up on most of them already. Just like here.

Yeah, I think they’ll keep him for that game and if he loses that it’s curtains. That Matt Law article seems to suggest he hasn’t fully lost the dressing room yet.

 

[Sandikan]

If we lose at the weekend then Jose will get sacked. That is my prediction.

Would be interesting to see, as that would be a calamitous loss, and the fourth in a row.

I just can't see it though. In an odd packed season, and having gone in on Mourinho, and with Kane injured, I think you'll still stick with him. Especially with the cup final coming up.

 

[giorno]

Fear is the perfect word to encapsulate Mourinho’s football these days, I’d say. It’s as if he goes into most games now trying not to lose rather than proactively winning.

Yes that's it. That's exactly what it is. He's become afraid of losing

 

[Lay]

If we lose at the weekend then Jose will get sacked. That is my prediction.

Can’t see that happening. I think the league cup will have a big bearing on his future.

Mourinho has a bit more to go to be in full meltdown mode

 

[Adisa]

Because back then he was younger, hungrier and inspitational, his players would run through a wall for him. He was also pragmatic, his ability to read games was exceptional and he was fearless. This kind of park the bus and try to nick a goal on one or 2 counters was something he did very rarely. His teams were significantly more proactive about trying to score, much more aggressive when they needed to be and generally the way they played against bottom of the league vs big away games was very different. His chelsea went to camp nou in 2007 and forced barcelona to play on the counter

with inter, the way they played in the league vs CL was like two different teams. Even in madrid he was still pragmatic enough to mix it up, even at camp nou

Now he's old, hunger has been replaced by fear and he struggles to connect with his players. He's no longer pragmatic either - it's no longer about winning, but winning his way. He's no different than a guardiola, only his own philosophy is based on fear

To all that, add in the way football evolved, players are fitter and faster than ever, and his playing style is just old. Much is made of Atletico Madrid and Simeone, but just one look at their teams is enough to see the difference: atletico madrid fly all over the pitch. They may play the same way, but they do so with significantly more energy and high intensity, which is why it works(that, plus simeone is very much the kind of inspirational leader Mou used to be). More than anything, it's his training methods that appear to be obsolete

He believes(not wrongly) that the team that makes fewest mistakes wins. So his focus is on limiting mistakes. That's why he's so conservative and negative - it's all aimed at reducing big mistakes(for that matter, Klopp and the modern german school also follow the same principle, but take it in a completely different direction. Instead of limiting their team's mistakes, they focus on forcing the opponent to make them). And the truth is players and teams are better than ever. Modern teams rarely make mistakes unless you force them to. So Mourinho's approach, it actually has a much smaller margin for error than Klopp's or Guardiola's. But again, he's just too old to change now

As for training methods, mourinho's teams don't look like teams coached with the ball. And it is well known that Mourinho did comparatively little training with the ball, even 10 years ago. Only these days, with the modern players and their fitness, and better coaching across the board at every level, if you don't know what to do with the ball the result will be, spurs. A team that struggles to mount more than 4-5 attacks per game against any opposition that isn't hilariously overwhelmed by the talent disparity. Winning in 2021 with 4 attacks is really, really, really, really hard to pull off.

as for man management, well, yeah. Again, he's old. Used to work with a different generation of players that were less curious, less professionals(in the most literal sense), more conditioned to just do what they're told and not ask questions, with access to significantly less information, etc. Mourinho has *always* found a player to throw under the bus, for example. It's one of the staples of his man management, find someone he doesn't need and then paint him as a bad influence, an enemy, in an effort to further strengthen his bond to *his* players, and between them. That worked with the older generations. With the currents one though, they see through the bs and it becomes counter-productive instead

Good analysis.
I will just add what I said months ago. The modern player would prefer to spend more energy defending the space in front him than defending the space behind. It is just the way they are wired these days. Mourinho will never agree with this concept.
I will never forget the interview Zabaleta had on sky when he said he felt for Rashford and Martial.
https://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/zab...ford-theyre-always/1d7iuy4giele11omzzrp3h381w