Jose > Pep - is it such a ridiculous notion?

MrEleson

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Jose Between Porto 2004 and Inter 2010 right up there with the greatest ever. Shame about his decline from Madrid onwards.

Pep had similar with Barcelona and City.

Both right up there.
He was excellent at Madrid overall even though it soured towards the end.

His 11/12 side is still one of the most entertaining teams I’ve ever seen play football. Free-flowing, scintillating football throughout. That team still holds the record for the most goals scored in a single league. season in the history of the top 5 leagues.

He also lay the foundation and groundwork for the club’s continued success after his departure by crucially breaking their last 16 curse in the CL and making pivotal and historic signings like Luka Modric. I really doubt they win La decima or later editions of the competition if not for his work from 2010-13 in making Real Madrid a European powerhouse again.

He really should’ve won it with them in 2012 when they lost on pens to Bayern. They were the best team in Europe that season and would’ve demolished Chelsea in the final.
 

Redplane

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Let's take this a step back: Pep was mostly a product of Johan Cruyff' influence, and Mou a product of LvG.

When you think about that some more, both their paths and styles make a lot more sense, and it probably also makes it easier to determine who is "greater".
 

CatsOfUlthar

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It's not a ridiculous notion. Jose has never had the same advantages handed to him, even under Abramovich, and despite his inability to adapt, he's done a remarkable job.

I would say a good amount hinges on Pep's complicity in financial doping. If he was aware of and engaged with it at Barca and City, then I don't think he deserves much credit at all.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Has any coach matched winning a league with Leicester?

Ranieri should be the GOAT
Not GOAT but better than these two bums that’s for sure

On the face of it Pep is better but the amount of his success that is achieved due to blatant fraud makes it a close contest.
 

Strelok

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Pep so far managed 3 clubs where he had everything going his way.
In Barcelona he has merit to make that team up but when you get Messi and the Spain golden generation core appearing in your time there's also a part of luck there, even if you also worked for it.
He then proceeded to screw up by getting rid of Etoo and getting Ibrahimovic (from Mou's Inter) which didn't work out for his system and in the following years watching Real build up and threaten his hegemony, which Real did, and in that precise moment Real was good enough to challenge him directly he left. I don't blame him, he had won everything with Barcelona, but in this analysis that timing clearly cut out a period where he could have been faced with competition from a team that matched his own.

In Bayern and City he had immense advantages.

In Bayern he inherited a treble winning team that had reached 3 CL finals in the 4 years before.
Reaching a CL final is not a sure measure of quality but he way he failed it says something - every time he faced an equal opponent he was crushed (0-4 at home to Real and 3-0 away to Barça) and with decent but not as good teams he struggled (losing to Atlético and struggling through extra time to get past Juventus). The only knock-out games he dispatched easily were against opponents one order of magnitude below his team.

In City he inherited an already very expensive team that was champion 2 years before, with a core of great players.
He then proceeded to just spend what others couldn't, amassing players after players and getting rid of the ones that didn't work out with no problem.
His team in City has been most of this time basically 2 teams, most of the players in his bench would start for any other team in the league.
With this squad he can rotate half the team and rest players with no drop in quality which left him with no consideration needed on what game is more important or not.
He did a great job in England and of the big teams the only one that was good enough to challenge him were Conte's (Conte won the league in the first year) that followed by lowering in quality quickly and Liverpool which rose in quality with Klopp.
He was fighting no one else: Man Utd was horrendous, Spurs are Spurs, Arsenal was still a wet noodle.
So he basically had to compete only with Liverpool after the 1st year, a Liverpool that again didn't have the luxury of his wide and star clad squad.
Then comes the CL and he failed miserably year after year being humilated by teams much weaker than his', he needed 6 years to finally beat it and when he did he benefited from other great teams either aging or not being able to afford the financial investment to keep / improve the squad especially after covid (not a problem in oilland).
Last year which big european team was good? Real had serious weaknesses, Barça was bad, Bayern was bad, he basically had no opposition, and that is where Pep shines: when he has a team one order of magnitude better than everybody else.

After Real Madrid on the other hand where did Mourinho get a team to challenge for the CL and the national titles seriously?
He did in Chelsea and he delivered, in his first year there he got 3rd place with a team with holes (winning home and away to the 2 teams above his') and the following year he bought 2-3 players and got the title.
He failed in his 3rd year spectualarly (fired when being almost in relegation zone) and then he had no other serious job to really contend in the level Pep had.
Man Utd were nowhere near a title challenge with a rotten useless squad, he actually won some minor things, he probably could have left Utd in a better situation but we're comparing to Pep and it's not possible, each one had very different tools to work with.
Then he went to Spurs.
Then he went to Roma, the perennial loser in Italy that was finishing in the lower CL places / Europa League places in the years before. He won a minor title there (something rare in Roma) and again maybe he could have improved Roma more by now but in the comparison Pep is sleeping in a completely different hotel.

Pep is clearly a good manager at managing at high level, he is able to make well organised teams that play to their strenghts and is able to keep it going after winning.
But I've never seen Pep do something more than what he was given. His Barça team was stacked, his Bayern team was stacked, his City team is stacked, and he was never faced with real competition to his jobs there - when he did he most often lost.
Mourinho has won a lot of stuff but he also had managed to get great victories with teams that clearly weren't the best in theory.
So I have to put Mourinho ahead of Pep, Pep so far has been handed golden platters every single time and sometimes he squandered it, Mourinho had both golden platters and wooden platters and he managed to win with both (not always obviously).
Not all what you said but I'd agree with most of it.

I hate Jose but imo prime Jose was a better manager and Pep has been a better coach with his constant evolving ideas while Jose is a dinosaur. And it's true Pep has always been lucky/have things so easy for him.

Anyway for me SAF is still the best. He took on a quite mediocre United back then and made it one of the best and biggest clubs in the world. Then keep doing it for many years even despite those greedy leechers.
 

Rojofiam

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My take on it is that when Mourinho burst onto the scene in the early 2000s, he was sort of a tactical pioneer and was ahead of everyone else in this regard, especially with focusing on small details that other managers at that time might've dismissed. For example, when Terry said that José told them exactly what Barcelona was going to do and how they were going to line up in the CL in 2005 when preparing them for the match. Up until 2015 his CV is incredible but since then it seems to me that he's become a shadow of his former self who didn't manage to stay relevant and reinvent himself out of stubbornness. I wouldn't want him anywhere near United but I'm sad that he's not one of the best managers around anymore because he's a huge entertainer and probably the closest thing to an "Anti-Pep" we've seen in football so far, and it would be great if we had someone like that managing one of the top clubs.

Pep and his football style is basically being copied by most good managers today and sadly he will have a long-lasting legacy on football in this regard. He's still a hypocrite and a cheat, mind you, but I don't see that becoming the general consensus that'll taint his Barcelona and City periods unless both those teams are severely punished in the future for their crimes.

Overall, Pep is way ahead but still a cnut that'll hopefully have his legacy rightfully tainted one day.
 

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Mourinho is a very good manager and a lot of positive things can be said about him. But it is truly bizarre that people are trying to argue that he mostly manages scrubs and underdogs. A guy who consecutively managed Chelsea, Inter, and Real Madrid.
 

Rojofiam

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Mourinho is a very good manager and a lot of positive things can be said about him. But it is truly bizarre that people are trying to argue that he mostly manages scrubs and underdogs. A guy who consecutively managed Chelsea, Inter, and Real Madrid.
And Chelsea again, and then United. Top clubs from 2004 to 2018.
 

Galactic

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Pep is overrated. He is indeed successful but only at clubs with lots of money and already with a big pulling factor.

He should test himself at Everton.
 

TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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Also, do people apply the argument about managing rich teams apply to other managers? Ancelotti, perhaps? After all, he couldn't work his magic at Everton or Napoli.

Mourinho had his day in the sun. He was arguably the finest product of his era. He embraced the contemporary trends of the time and turned his teams into winning machines. No one can take that away from him.

Having said that, his peak is synonymous mostly with great defensive displays. It was the time when the bore fests against Rafa's Liverpool in the CL were perceived as the pinnacle of football tactics. Games in which barely anything happened. Ferguson, who has a bad h2h record against Mou, was fighting the tide until he made his own concessions. Pep ended that era and that's a good thing in my eyes. Even if he's managing a cheating oil club.
 

Garnacho's Shoelaces

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Pep is overrated. He is indeed successful but only at clubs with lots of money and already with a big pulling factor.

He should test himself at Everton.
Agreed. I think you'd see a positive playing style still, like de Zerbi at Brighton. They'd be punchy and get the odd big result but also get heavily beaten here and there due to no Plan B and not having two world class players for every position.

I reckon Pep would elevate Everton slightly but you'd still be more likely to snatch a point at Anfield with Dyche.
 

norm87cro

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No its not. Jose has won the CL with Porto (with a bit of luck but a great side) and Inter. He has won the league in every country he has been to and has done exceptionally well with limited players (United) and resources (Roma).
On the down side he has been known to pick a fight with everybody but thats his nature.

Pep has a CL more. After doing a great job at Barca he signed for Bayern and really didnt grasp the nature of german football and its not tiki taka. He is stubborn in his ways and his teams often lost because of it. He needed 10+ years of heavy investment (both by Bayern and City) to win his third CL. He has also won the three major leagues. (which is not that impressive with Bayern City and Barca)

Success wise I would give it to Jose no doubt it really doesnt matter that Pep plays better/attacking football (aldo holding the ball for 70% of the time doesnt always suggest great football as often such teams just control the time when leading 2 0 so it can be conservative too)
 

amolbhatia50k

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And Chelsea again, and then United. Top clubs from 2004 to 2018.
I mean there’s no real comparison between the United than Jose took over and your typical ‘top club’. Look at how well City are run for example - lightyears between the clubs.
 

Siorac

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and really didnt grasp the nature of german football and its not tiki taka.
What does this even mean? In his last season there, they won the league with 88 points - that was only bettered twice, once by Heynckes and once by, erm, Guardiola in his first season. The last time they exceeded 80 points was in 2020 and even then it was only 82.

Whatever you want to say about Pep's time at Bayern, it's baffling to claim that he somehow didn't understand German football. His team was an absolute machine, it utterly dominated German football to an extent that even Bayern usually don't.
 

RedUnited86

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Never in a million years does Pep win the Champions League with Porto and Inter.

Case closed.
 

ROFLUTION

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What a downfall Jose's had from what he once was. One thing you can argue against Jose is that Pep developed the style that outlasted Jose's at times hyperdefensive approach.

Mourinho has stuck in his old ways instead of evolving the way football evolved. Pep is having an easy time with his huge spend and what is probably cheating by City, but he's also developed most of the tactics that are succesful today. He's a grade a cnut that's for sure, but some of the tactics he's developed are the foundations of today's succesful teams and player types. It's even being considered giving an orange card now, due to the tactical fouls Pep has invented high up the pitch.

Gotta give credit where it's due: Mourinho won the Champions League as a huge underdog two times, so his tactics and spirit was clearly fantastic for a long period of time. He looked like having a depression at times at United, something mentally did happen to him I believe. He lost his hunger and cleverness at some point, where Pep has just continued.
 

Siorac

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Never in a million years does Pep win the Champions League with Porto and Inter.

Case closed.
Pretending that Inter were some sort of plucky underdog is really grating. They were full of top class players and Goran Pandev.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Pretending that Inter were some sort of plucky underdog is really grating. They were full of top class players and Goran Pandev.
Even the Porto CL win is a bit overrated.

It was an extremely freakish tournament in which the semifinalists were Deportivo La Coruña, Chelsea, Monaco, and Porto. A plucky underdog was going to win no matter what.
 

norm87cro

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What does this even mean? In his last season there, they won the league with 88 points - that was only bettered twice, once by Heynckes and once by, erm, Guardiola in his first season. The last time they exceeded 80 points was in 2020 and even then it was only 82.

Whatever you want to say about Pep's time at Bayern, it's baffling to claim that he somehow didn't understand German football. His team was an absolute machine, it utterly dominated German football to an extent that even Bayern usually don't.
Did they win the CL? Because thats what they signed him to do. He failed. Miserably i might add. (Heynckes won the CL playing german football)
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Did they win the CL? Because thats what they signed him to do. He failed. Miserably i might add.
By this standard, Mourinho failed miserably at Real Madrid. He was signed to win the Champions League, reached semifinals three times (like Guardiola at Bayern) but never a final.
 

norm87cro

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By this standard, Mourinho failed miserably at Real Madrid. He was signed to win the Champions League, reached semifinals three times (like Guardiola at Bayern) but never a final.
And I actually agree with that statement. I actually wanted to add that in my first comment but didnt.
I still think he is the better of the two more versitale to change and I think if Pep stayed at Barca it would be much better for him and the club.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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The Jose/Pep debates are a bit like the Messi/Ronaldo debates, in that instead of having a normal conversation about strengths and weaknesses, some people insist on the perverse position that one of them is Actually Not Good.
 

HTG

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Did they win the CL? Because thats what they signed him to do. He failed. Miserably i might add. (Heynckes won the CL playing german football)
This is an absurd statement. And I have no idea what German football is supposed to be. But what we were playing since 2010 was basically Van Gaal football that got slightly adapted by every following coach.
 

Siorac

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Did they win the CL? Because thats what they signed him to do. He failed. Miserably i might add. (Heynckes won the CL playing german football)
But... the Champions League isn't German football. You might say that he failed to understand European football.

This is a really weird argument anyway. "Tiki-taka" is about as far away from traditional English football as it's possible to get but I'd say he's done alright in England regardless.
 

Camara

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The Jose/Pep debates are a bit like the Messi/Ronaldo debates, in that instead of having a normal conversation about strengths and weaknesses, some people insist on the perverse position that one of them is Actually Not Good.
As I mentioned in other topics previously those are exactly the same "conflict".
These "radicalisms" started in that era and keeps going to this day and seems it will continue but with other actors in the future.

IMO opinion this started when that super Barça team was assembled and for many it was the most beautiful thing ever created and the pinnacle of football and Guardiola the inventor of the sport.
Then at their peak Mourinho, that had before also called to himself a lot of mediatism and impact, landed a massive blow to that narrative with the Inter-Barça tie. It was a clash of football superstars, the two special ones.
From that moment on, instigated by Guardiola, Xavi, etc, everything that was not the Barça style was deemed anti-football and not the proper way to play. The Barça side came up with this cope mechanism and the media swallowed it whole.

Any team playing the Barça style, regardless of being shit and getting trashed every single game, was deemed "plays good football" and that manager praised.
Ronaldo and Messi happened to be amazing and on the opposite sides of the barricade, soon they were elevated to the pantheon on each side of the conflict alongside Mou/Pep.
If you notice Ronaldo and Messi are literally the player/style versions of Mourinho and Guardiola in this conflict: Ronaldo does whatever he needs to do to leave a mark (heading, long shot, dribble, physical power, raw speed, he doesn't care how he does it) while Messi is specialised in a playstyle to perfection (sheer outstanding technical ability and vision).
 

Ish

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I think the ten year stretch from 04-14 was almost as good as Peps 09-12/17-23. Peps across two chapters to be fair.

Mourinho could win with teams that were not meant to win, Pep has always won with teams that are meant to win. Pep also had the GOAT and several of the top ten players of their generation in one squad, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets etc
On the flip side of this argument, i think Mourinho also couldn't win with team who was meant to win...if that makes any sense?

I think the underdog mentality suited prime Mourinho to the tee. Prime Mourinho was indeed super impressive - he also had Chelsea/Madrid playing some great football, albeit they were super dominant in terms of "expensively assembled squads" - and he failed to deliver the UCL with them.
 

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Has any coach matched winning a league with Leicester?

Ranieri should be the GOAT
He doesn’t get the credit he should for that, probably because it’s pretty much an anomaly. What’s the biggest trophy he won besides that, the copa Del rey?
 

KeanoMagicHat

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This was a decent debate a few years ago, because Mourinho was a brilliant manager at his peak, maybe to the point where Mourinho was halfway through as United manager. His jobs since have just confirmed his biggest weakness, he's toxic and can't last more than a few years in a job, whereas the last few years have proved different for Pep, sustained success.

Mourinho has been sacked 5 times in his career now, leaving some teams at serious low points and in complete disarray. We will see what will happen with Roma, they've recovered a bit but wasn't looking good there for a while. Pep has never been sacked and never been close to being sacked in more than 15 years as manager.

Mourinho also never evolved his style whereas Pep has. Pep is always at the forefront of tactical trends, people still associate him with tika-taka but really he's long moved on from that and adapted to the modern game, Mourinho pretty much has kept the 'ball is the enemy' sort of tactics and as a result has moved down the ranks in prestige in terms of jobs he's able to take. Guardiola meanwhile has just won another treble on top of sustained brilliance over a long time.

What does this even mean? In his last season there, they won the league with 88 points - that was only bettered twice, once by Heynckes and once by, erm, Guardiola in his first season. The last time they exceeded 80 points was in 2020 and even then it was only 82.

Whatever you want to say about Pep's time at Bayern, it's baffling to claim that he somehow didn't understand German football. His team was an absolute machine, it utterly dominated German football to an extent that even Bayern usually don't.
Yep, Pep did everything that could be done in German football. In the Champions League they came up against arguably Messi's best ever CL season, arguably Ronaldo's best ever CL season and a freak game against Atletico in a semi-final where they had 33 shots, Muller missed a penalty and lost on away goals.

If he was at Bayern longer than 3 years, I'm sure he would have won the CL eventually. Also if it was so easy to win the Champions League for Bayern then they probably would have won it more often than 3 times in the past 40 years. If it was so easy to defend the Champions League after 2013, then surely more teams than just Real Madrid would have achieved that in the past 30 years.
 

WeePat

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I’m just here to say Mourinho is the goat.