Keir Starmer Labour Leader

[DOTA]

It's nice not to have to give a shit about this. Very much not my party, not my problem.

 

[The Corinthian]

It’s an incredibly clumsily worded statement she made, but I understand what she’s getting at. But it’s never a good look to try and rank racism / prejudice if you’re a politician.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

It’s an incredibly clumsily worded statement she made, but I understand what she’s getting at. But it’s never a good look to try and rank racism / prejudice if you’re a politician.

Yeah, just avoid it.

I imagine as a black woman she is looking at the racism faced by black people which is perhaps could be deemed as more "visual" and say, less subtle than antisemitism.

 

[The Corinthian]

Yeah, just avoid it.

I imagine as a black woman she is looking at the racism faced by black people which is perhaps could be deemed as more "visual" and say, less subtle than antisemitism.

Yea and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with the sentiment that racism of colour is a lot more pertinent and significant in history and modern times. George Floyd, BLM, Windrush are only from the last few years. Stephen Lawrence was in the news as of yesterday. Even in the gov statistics on hate crimes, racist hate crimes based on colour is the highest and increasing. And mentioning this shouldn’t downplay or erase the difficulties faced by other communities who are struggling with their own issues of external prejudice/racism etc. But me saying it on an internet forum is a lot more palatable than a politician.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Yea and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with the sentiment that racism of colour is a lot more pertinent and significant in history and modern times. George Floyd, BLM, Windrush are only from the last few years. Stephen Lawrence was in the news as of yesterday. Even in the gov statistics on hate crimes, racist hate crimes based on colour is the highest and increasing. And mentioning this shouldn’t downplay or erase the difficulties faced by other communities who are struggling with their own issues of external prejudice/racism etc. But me saying it on an internet forum is a lot more palatable than a politician.

Agreed!

 

[Drifter]

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Completely ignoring travelers and the Irish that were mentioned. Straight to his agenda.

 

[UweBein]

Yeah, just avoid it.

I imagine as a black woman she is looking at the racism faced by black people which is perhaps could be deemed as more "visual" and say, less subtle than antisemitism.

But what she's alluding to is just wrong.
Jews were facing discrimination for centuries in Europe - really like no other group. Prejudices against jews are still widespread.

 

[Drifter]

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[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

But what she's alluding to is just wrong.
Jews were facing discrimination for centuries in Europe - really like no other group. Prejudices against jews are still widespread.

Black people weren't facing discrimination for centuries across Europe?!

 

[Drainy]

Black people weren't facing discrimination for centuries across Europe?!

Why strawman? This isn't the conservative party, noone is claiming racism against black people and other ethnic minorities isn't a serious thing in this discussion.

It's about a black woman downplaying the seriousness of antisemitism.

 

[dumbo]

She only has herself to blame for the stupidity of the comments but make no mistake, the right of the Labour party will use this to gleefully join the far right media in kicking the shit out of her because she's on the left, because she's unlikeable and because she's a black woman.

Keir and the Labour Party still don't take seriously the findings in the Forde Report, which included evidence of abuse and bullying of Dianne Abbott.

 

[Drainy]

Always had a soft spot for Diane Abbott, having first engaged with politics with This Week with Andrew Neil after QT. Abbott vs Portillo was great. Sickened by the abuse she got over the years.

She's properly messed up here and I don't see a way back for her even if the party wanted it.

Why do Labour politicians keep saying dumb things about race?

 

[The Corinthian]

She only has herself to blame for the stupidity of the comments but make no mistake, the right of the Labour party will use this to gleefully join the far right media in kicking the shit out of her because she's on the left, because she's unlikeable and because she's a black woman.

Keir and the Labour Party still don't take seriously the findings in the Forde Report, which included evidence of abuse and bullying of Dianne Abbott.

Yea, it's political point-scoring from Keir, 100%. I can't remember who said it in the other thread, but he really is a Tory in Labour clothing.

I also think there's still some animosity coming her way due to her closeness to Corbyn.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Yea, it's political point-scoring from Keir, 100%. I can't remember who said it in the other thread, but he really is a Tory in Labour clothing.

I also think there's still some animosity coming her way due to her closeness to Corbyn.

This letter was totally unnecessary. The outcome from this letter was totally predictable.

But it is concerning that Starmer and Co. refuse to accept there is a hierarchy of racism from Abbotts comments. Yet completely ignore the Forde report which indicates a wider problem with racism against black members in the party. And accuses factions of the Labour party of politicising anti semitism, to the detriment of actually fighting against it.

 

[UweBein]

Black people weren't facing discrimination for centuries across Europe?!

Not like that. I am not a fan of Goat Rankings, but them Jews got the top spot in Europe easily.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Why strawman? This isn't the conservative party, noone is claiming racism against black people and other ethnic minorities isn't a serious thing in this discussion.

It's about a black woman downplaying the seriousness of antisemitism.

I'm not, it's just the point is you can't say one group has faced discrimination as if another hasn't across Europe.

We most likely agree on this point but are just approaching from different pov.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

I was thinking earlier that perhaps the UK as a nation takes antisemitism more seriously than black racism, because is it associated with and reflects something we are proud of as a nation defeating the Hitler and the Nazis (tied to our national identity & mythology).

Whereas black racism is more closely associated with things as a nation we are ashamed of/don't like to discuss, such as slavery and colonisation.

Probably wildly off the mark, due to a lack of caffeine.

 

[DOTA]

We don't really take antisemitism seriously. We just found a way to wield its name in defence of right wing political projects. It's ignored where it's not so convenient.

 

[hasanejaz88]

Yea, it's political point-scoring from Keir, 100%. I can't remember who said it in the other thread, but he really is a Tory in Labour clothing.

I also think there's still some animosity coming her way due to her closeness to Corbyn.

I've been saying for a while now that I wouldn't be surprised if years later we find out he was secretly installed by the Tories as a mole into the party to destroy it.

And ofcourse it's not surprising that in all of this no one is talking about her also ignoring racism faced by travelers/gypsies.

 

[horsechoker]

We don't really take antisemitism seriously. We just found a way to wield its name in defence of right wing political projects. It's ignored where it's not so convenient.

This.

 

[Smores]

Why strawman? This isn't the conservative party, noone is claiming racism against black people and other ethnic minorities isn't a serious thing in this discussion.

It's about a black woman downplaying the seriousness of antisemitism.

I don't think she was downplaying it at all? Which quotes support that claim?

She's always been useless conveying her point, she's a terrible representative of the left. She didn't really say anything wrong but to say it at all is so incredibly tone deaf.

 

[Frosty]

And ofcourse it's not surprising that in all of this no one is talking about her also ignoring racism faced by travelers/gypsies.

That's because racism against travellers and gypsy communities is a central policy offering.

 

[11101]

Yeah, just avoid it.

I imagine as a black woman she is looking at the racism faced by black people which is perhaps could be deemed as more "visual" and say, less subtle than antisemitism.

What could be less subtle than somebody attempting to exterminate your entire race?

She is thinking of the racism felt by herself and dismissing the experiences of others. She likely also thinks her lack of popularity is down to her race rather than her just being an idiot, and quite a nasty one at that. Probably the single most damaging figure to the Labour Party in the last election and Starmer must be delighted he can get rid of her.

 

[The Corinthian]

I am not a fan of Goat Rankings

Jews got the top spot in Europe easily.

Hmm.

 

[The Corinthian]

What could be less subtle than somebody attempting to exterminate your entire race?

She is thinking of the racism felt by herself and dismissing the experiences of others. She likely also thinks her lack of popularity is down to her race rather than her just being an idiot, and quite a nasty one at that. Probably the single most damaging figure to the Labour Party in the last election and Starmer must be delighted he can get rid of her.

I don't want to spend too much time going down this rabbit hole...but the Nazis also persecuted/exterminated Romani, blacks, gypsies, disabled, gays, Slavic etc as well as their Jewish population. All of it heinous. All of it disgusting. All of it a stain on shared human history.

But I don't see why that takes away from ~400-500 years of oppression and systemic racism that we still see today. Like I said in a previous post, BLM, George Floyd, anti-colonial/slave trade sentiment is only from the last couple of years. It's still a problem today. I agree that there's no benefit to try and get hierarchical about it, but she didn't say anything too outlandish either. It was clumsily worded, but nothing malicious in my opinion.

 

[DanH]

I don't think she was downplaying it at all? Which quotes support that claim?

Possibly the bit that drew a comparison with redheads?

 

[Rams]

I don't want to spend too much time going down this rabbit hole...but the Nazis also persecuted/exterminated Romani, blacks, gypsies, disabled, gays, Slavic etc as well as their Jewish population. All of it heinous. All of it disgusting. All of it a stain on shared human history.

But I don't see why that takes away from ~400-500 years of oppression and systemic racism that we still see today. Like I said in a previous post, BLM, George Floyd, anti-colonial/slave trade sentiment is only from the last couple of years. It's still a problem today. I agree that there's no benefit to try and get hierarchical about it, but she didn't say anything too outlandish either. It was clumsily worded, but nothing malicious in my opinion.

Nobody is denying the oppression & racism towards black people, Abbot was denying the oppression & racism towards Jews. Get rid of!!!

 

[Frosty]

Starmer says Labour would outlaw spiking drinks because law must 'keep up with evolving crime'
The Labour party has sent out a briefing note on its proposal to create a new offence to outlaw spiking drinks (see 10.29am), instead of relying on existing offences to deal with the problem.

It would also consider allowing people to report spiking incidents anonymously, it says. The party explains:

Spiking is currently covered by several different offences but there is no single dedicated offence for police to use to catch dangerous perpetrators. The number of reported spiking incidents is on the rise, with a notable increase in the number of ‘needle spiking’, which is injecting someone with drugs without their consent.

Nearly 5,000 cases of needle and drink spiking incidents were reported to police in England and Wales in the 12 months to September 2022.

The home affairs select committee has recommended the creation of a separate criminal offence for spiking. However, that recommendation has been rejected by the government, arguing it was ‘unnecessary’. A spiking offence is supported by campaigners, police officers and the Association of Police and Crime Commissioners.

The next Labour government will also explore anonymous reporting systems for victims of spiking. Research suggests just 3% of spiking victims report to the police, making it a significantly under-reported crime.

Anonymous reporting would allow victims to report without shame or fear, but also allow police to identify spiking hotspots and flood resources to deal with perpetrators.

In a statement Keir Starmer said:

I saw first-hand as director of public prosecutions that victims are let down when the law doesn’t keep up with evolving crime. My government will recognise the reality of dangerous new crimes being perpetrated against, more often than not, young women, and we will act.


The rise of spiking sends terror through the heart of every parent with a daughter; and leaves young women feeling vulnerable. Women should not have to live in fear that when they go out, their drink may be spiked, or that they may be injected with a harmful substance. It is a pernicious, dangerous, and hateful crime, and Labour will punish it as such.

 

[The Corinthian]

Nobody is denying the oppression & racism towards black people, Abbot was denying the oppression & racism towards Jews. Get rid of!!!

She wasn't though. And in any case, saying that 'x group had it worse' isn't antisemitic.

 

[11101]

I don't want to spend too much time going down this rabbit hole...but the Nazis also persecuted/exterminated Romani, blacks, gypsies, disabled, gays, Slavic etc as well as their Jewish population. All of it heinous. All of it disgusting. All of it a stain on shared human history.

But I don't see why that takes away from ~400-500 years of oppression and systemic racism that we still see today. Like I said in a previous post, BLM, George Floyd, anti-colonial/slave trade sentiment is only from the last couple of years. It's still a problem today. I agree that there's no benefit to try and get hierarchical about it, but she didn't say anything too outlandish either. It was clumsily worded, but nothing malicious in my opinion.

I agree there is no sense getting hierarchical about it, but there are people alive today who survived the Holocaust (generations have passed since the last victims of the Atlantic slave trade). Anti-Semitism is alive and well in 2023 especially in the Middle East, and in the Labour Party apparently. You cant say that its a historic problem.

It's a malicious statement because she believes her experience matters more than other equally persecuted groups and is using her position to try and talk their experiences down.

 

[Jippy]

I don't want to spend too much time going down this rabbit hole...but the Nazis also persecuted/exterminated Romani, blacks, gypsies, disabled, gays, Slavic etc as well as their Jewish population. All of it heinous. All of it disgusting. All of it a stain on shared human history.

But I don't see why that takes away from ~400-500 years of oppression and systemic racism that we still see today. Like I said in a previous post, BLM, George Floyd, anti-colonial/slave trade sentiment is only from the last couple of years. It's still a problem today. I agree that there's no benefit to try and get hierarchical about it, but she didn't say anything too outlandish either. It was clumsily worded, but nothing malicious in my opinion.

I kind of understand what she was saying on one level, but I have no intention of what she was trying to achieve with this statement though. She was dismissive of antisemitism, whether she meant to be or not, and to tacitly link it with being having red hair is beyond stupid. Jewish people have been persecuted, massacred and ousted from countries for centuries.

I agree the bullying and abuse she has suffered is horrific and shameful for the country.

 

[WPMUFC]

She added needless controversy to a topic that doesn't need it. And by forcing comparisons, or borderline creating a "tier list" of racial oppression only made the argument weaker. It's all systemic racism that requires unique responses to how the racism is implemented. I really don't know what adding "you know there is worse racism for X people" does for your argument, certainly doesn't help it. Her article was the exact example of "kicking yourself in the face". Completely self-infected.

 

[DanH]

Starmer says Labour would outlaw spiking drinks because law must 'keep up with evolving crime'
The Labour party has sent out a briefing note on its proposal to create a new offence to outlaw spiking drinks (see 10.29am), instead of relying on existing offences to deal with the problem.

It would also consider allowing people to report spiking incidents anonymously, it says. The party explains:



In a statement Keir Starmer said:


I saw first-hand as director of public prosecutions that victims are let down when the law doesn’t keep up with evolving crime. My government will recognise the reality of dangerous new crimes being perpetrated against, more often than not, young women, and we will act.


The rise of spiking sends terror through the heart of every parent with a daughter; and leaves young women feeling vulnerable. Women should not have to live in fear that when they go out, their drink may be spiked, or that they may be injected with a harmful substance. It is a pernicious, dangerous, and hateful crime, and Labour will punish it as such.

At first glance, this seems a good policy.

 

[Drainy]

I don't think she was downplaying it at all? Which quotes support that claim?

She's always been useless conveying her point, she's a terrible representative of the left. She didn't really say anything wrong but to say it at all is so incredibly tone deaf.

She said it was like redheads

 

[The Corinthian]

I agree there is no sense getting hierarchical about it, but there are people alive today who survived the Holocaust (generations have passed since the last victims of the Atlantic slave trade). Anti-Semitism is alive and well in 2023 especially in the Middle East, and in the Labour Party apparently. You cant say that its a historic problem.

It's a malicious statement because she believes her experience matters more than other equally persecuted groups and is using her position to try and talk their experiences down.

It's not necessarily the fact that generations have passed since the slave trade, more that that effects are still being felt, and that they're still so widespread. It's crazy what black people have to go through in the US, and Europe. I'd like to think we in the UK are better but there's still massive room for improvement. Systemic racism is a massive thing in day to day life. And mentioning this doesn't downplay antisemitism either. But also saying that racism of colour is worse than antisemitism isn't in itself antisemitic.

Antisemitism is 'alive and well' (hate that phrase) like so many other forms of prejudice - anti-LGBT, Islamophobia, misogyny but I wouldn't say that these are systemic the way racism of colour is and has been. There's still swathes of information out there showing how BAME people are at an disadvantage based on colour, name, when applying for jobs, opportunities.

Lastly, I don't think she was being malicious though. She was being hierarchical...which isn't a good look for a politician.

CCing @Jippy as I've seen you replied to my post too.

 

[Frosty]

At first glance, this seems a good policy.

If there is a masterplan, it would be to drop policy after policy that are so self-evident that they cannot be criticised, before launching a full manifesto probably next Spring.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I was thinking earlier that perhaps the UK as a nation takes antisemitism more seriously than black racism, because is it associated with and reflects something we are proud of as a nation defeating the Hitler and the Nazis (tied to our national identity & mythology).

Whereas black racism is more closely associated with things as a nation we are ashamed of/don't like to discuss, such as slavery and colonisation.

Probably wildly off the mark, due to a lack of caffeine.

Not a bad analysis. Certainly possible as a contributing factor.

Also blackness is more easily and more instantly physically recognisable for the (more often than not simple minded) racists.

This could also be off the mark though as I'm on a caffeine free day today too!

 

[Fluctuation0161]

We don't really take antisemitism seriously. We just found a way to wield its name in defence of right wing political projects. It's ignored where it's not so convenient.

For example, this guy didn't get instantly concerned and lose the whip from Starmer did he?

The politicising of anti semitism by the Labour right and the UK media seems to mean it only counts if your politics are left leaning. It should always be dealt with and not accepted, consistently, if we have a zero tolerance approach.

Huddersfield MP apologises for alleged anti-Semitic tweet
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-53628761

 

[The Corinthian]

I was thinking earlier that perhaps the UK as a nation takes antisemitism more seriously than black racism, because is it associated with and reflects something we are proud of as a nation defeating the Hitler and the Nazis (tied to our national identity & mythology).

Whereas black racism is more closely associated with things as a nation we are ashamed of/don't like to discuss, such as slavery and colonisation.

Probably wildly off the mark, due to a lack of caffeine.

There's definitely some European cultural guilt with the holocaust when it comes to antisemitism. I think there's an overreaction almost in such circumstances (how Keir is behaving right now is a prime example).

I think black racism is so ingrained, subconsciously or otherwise, that we're just so blind to our biases, behaviour, and words until we're made aware. That incident with whatsherface from the Royal Family asking the black lady about 10 times where she's from is a good example of that.

 

[hasanejaz88]

That's because racism against travellers and gypsy communities is a central policy offering.

Also to do with a certain amount of lobbying and money being provided by pro-Israel/Zionist groups that influence their reaction.