I said that he was brilliant but after that i explained what i meant. He was brilliant compared to today CBs, comparing them to the guys from that era he wasnt on the Nesta/Maldini level but he was still good in both Lazio and Milan, at least in my opinion. From the memory i think he played a fair share of games at right-back for Milan because Cafu got injured and they didnt have backup so his performances out wide maybe throw a shadow on the performances in the middle of defence.
La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - QF Joga Bonito/Balu vs Sjor Bepo/anant
- Thread starter Marty1968
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I think the words of Sir Alex played a big part in forming the image of "the swan song" of Stam's career in Italy. Not often Sir Alex admits a mistake, so it must be a big and obvious one - that's how the mind works.
He certainly wasn't at his career peak there. But still, his last two seasons for Lazio were great, especially the last one before his transfer to Milan. He has the highest average rating in that Lazio team for 2003/04 season, for example. He lost some of his pace, which made him really special in his Manchester United spell, but was still great defensive-wise. His Milan years were decent, but nothing to write home about as far as I'm concerned
Naming him one of the top defenders in the draft, like someone did earlier, is over the top. Hierro, Costacurta, Puyol, Ferrara, Montero were better than him - and it's possible that I forgot someone.
He certainly wasn't at his career peak there. But still, his last two seasons for Lazio were great, especially the last one before his transfer to Milan. He has the highest average rating in that Lazio team for 2003/04 season, for example. He lost some of his pace, which made him really special in his Manchester United spell, but was still great defensive-wise. His Milan years were decent, but nothing to write home about as far as I'm concerned
Naming him one of the top defenders in the draft, like someone did earlier, is over the top. Hierro, Costacurta, Puyol, Ferrara, Montero were better than him - and it's possible that I forgot someone.
Yeah, that's fair I think. I'd add a few names to that list. Bergomi and Godin from this game here for example, but overall I agree with that.
Not totally. Depends what we're talking about, specifically. His peak was at United, that's clear enough for me. He went to Lazio, got busted for taking steroids, and didn't come back at quite the same, overall level. However, the difference between peak Stam (the United version) and Stam at his best for Lazio isn't that dramatic. In his last couple of seasons for Lazio he began losing some of his sheer beastliness, but you could probably argue that this period was his true peak as a game reading, defence leading player. So, if we go with that - he was physically less impressive, but mentally at his peak - the difference really isn't great.
Forgot the best fecking CB in the pool
And Godin belongs to that list too, I agree
I'm not fully convinced that his peak at Lazio as a less physical defender was close to his peak at United. But like I said, I could be wrong. I didn't see that many games of him at Lazio. But to back up my opinion, I wasn't impressed with his performances after 2001 for the Dutch nationalteam either, certainly didn't see a mentally at his peak version of him.
The way I look at it, at Lazio his performance possibly edge those of peak Miranda when he played next to Godin, and that was a damn hard CB pair to break.
Oh I wasn't trying to say that it wouldn't be difficult to score against those two, no doubt about that. I wasn't trying to imply that Stam was bad or a liability or anything like that. @Šjor Bepo built an excellent defense here and I like a lot about his team. The Kluivert - Totti combo was frightening and beautiful upfront.
But Stam was a first round pick and called one of the best defenders in the draft a bit too often for my liking, so I thought it would be an interesting discussion because it just didn't sit right with me. Especially because I believe he isn't even the best defender in Sjor's team.
Yeah, I wouldn't go that far.
By mentally I mean his positional intelligence and so forth, not his mentality as such. Most players (not least defenders) reach their peak as game readers around the 30 mark. I believe the same holds true for Stam: He gained a little more experience, became slightly better in the footballing brains department, after he left United.
What you seem to be hinting at here is a decline which is more dramatic than what I personally remember. He declined, yes - his peak was at United, yes. But if you factor in all relevant aspects, he was still pretty close to the same level.
What you could say, however, is that by losing some of his physical edge, he lost something which was crucial to his game as an absolute top, top player: It was the combination of overall defensive capability and that beastly physique of his which made him stand out. Lose the former to an extent and, well, perhaps he didn't truly stand out anymore. He went from top, top - to top. Arguably. Top is still pretty good, though.
That Draft Dream Team was just cobbled together in about 2 minutes, but I agree that Stam probably doesn't warrant one of the Serie A spots, but more due to the competition for them than his own performance level. I wasn't a prolific Lazio viewer either so my opinion is far from definitive but I don't think he dropped off much if at all from his Utd level for them. I remember him looking pretty sluggish at the tail end of his Utd career and then being impressed that he looked pretty much back to his athletic peak for Lazio. You mentioned his international performances declining from 2001 but then that Holland team was desperately under performing overall, and in any case I don't think he had the most stellar international career in general. I can't remember much about him in Euro 2000 but I think he was okay there, but I thought he looked poor at WC 98 and I was very worried we'd bought ourselves a donkey, especially after a bad debut for us in the Charity Shield.
Stam wasn't particularly impressive in 'that night in instanbul' either.
Didn't want to get into a deeper discussion during the game not to influence the voters with my opinion, but here goes:
Good game mate. Apologies if we were too harsh during discussions.
Anyway, more clarification on the rationale behind the forward duo not possessing synergy would be welcome
@Theon
@Enigma_87
I think the position you are describing is more of what Kun did when they both played together rather than Forlan. Forlan was the central forward and dropped deep, but it was Kun with the more free role:
Example of the game vs Fulham in EL.
^^ vs Valencia
vs Villareal
For me during his best time in AM he was the central forward and the main man.
The role you are describing is more of his Uruguay role where he played off Suarez.
There you have a point, but here we're talking about the league and to be honest I can see Suarez and and Kun a lot closer to the style that would make a much better match when you use Forlan in a combination of front 2.
Now for Crespo I can see him doing well in 4-3-3 as a lone up top and/or in 4-4-2 but in the same position Forlan occupied in Atletico. At Lazio he played in close to the same role as Forlan at AM and Claudio Lopez was on the leftish role feeding off him. In Milan he played with Sheva, but then Sheva is a bit different because his versatility helped him play with pretty much anybody apart from Crespo.
For me Crespo was best in his Lazio years, really deadly and possibly in his best shape in his career. Put Aguero next to him and I'd like that, Forlan... not so much. I think a lot of their roles and qualities will overlap and you can't get the best out of them in that formation.
Don't get me wrong I think both are quality players and on their own bring a lot to the table, but for me the best way to utilize them both is to pair them with a partner with fast feet, good technique, explosive, the ability to create space for himself and keep the defenders on their toes and thus also create openings for both Forlan and Crespo. Kun, Villa, Owen, Lopez, even Eto'o(although I think he's best in 4-3-3) are such players and close to what you look for to get the best out of him.A forward creator type with swift movement and the ability to run into free space and to stretch the central pair will be better choice.
Sure Forlan can play in that role it's not like he's in the wrong position and he has proven it at Uruguay, but to me I think you're losing some of his best qualities, both him and Crespo are excellent finishers that can also move well and fool the defenders, but making one of them the creator you're losing a bit of his best qualities. This is the reason why IMO Forlan turned so good in Spain and peaked at Atletico, a combination of those factors.
Sure Forlan can play in that role it's not like he's in the wrong position and he has proven it at Uruguay, but to me I think you're losing some of his best qualities, both him and Crespo are excellent finishers that can also move well and fool the defenders, but making one of them the creator you're losing a bit of his best qualities. This is the reason why IMO Forlan turned so good in Spain and peaked at Atletico, a combination of those factors.
Let's be honest the entire Milan defence, as incredible as it looked on paper, were all a bit past their best by the mid-2000s. As for Stam, I'm not sure he's a standout within the centre-half pool. There is a group of them, probably consisting of maybe half a dozen or so, on that top level, but no clear standout IMO.
Nah, I wouldn't take those formations at face value. It was quite clearly a fluid and interchanging forward duo with Forlan and Aguero having the freedom to interchange and drop deep. If you watch the videos (and just about most of the ones lying about on the net) that I posted above, you can quite clearly see that Forlan did drop deep, function as a roaming second-striker or as a centre-forward inter-changeably. Neither Aguero nor Forlan played a clearly defined role up front as a stereotypical 'creative second striker' or as a 'centre-forward up top', although I wouldn't mind playing either of them here with another second-striker myself, due to their complete roles playing for Atletico.
Nah, I'm hardly burdening him with a creative role, just as a facilitating roaming forward. Also I'd say Forlan was the more creative (or possessed more developed link-up play to put it in better terms) one out of the Aguero-Forlan pairing.
As you stated, it simply boils down to whether Forlan can function in his roaming role up top and whether he has the freedom to do so. Is another mobile striker prerequisite for the strike partner to drop deep or play in a roaming role? Does playing a focal point up top pigeonhole said strike partner into a static and rigid role? Hardly imo, both these type of forwards have their own set of merits but they clearly don't impede their partner's game, esp since one can argue that you have to play a dynamic and roaming sort of a strike partner behind a phyiscal spearhead. And that too in a 3-5-2 which is heavily designed to give the two forwards up top, lots of room and space to work with. There's hardly any overlap between Crespo and Forlan in their roles or qualities as far as I'm concerned.
At no point did they play the same roles for their clubs. They were chalk and cheese in terms of their game play.
Anyway, to put it simply, Crespo has a plethora of service from the middle with creative influences such as Alonso and Häßler, with Dunga being a notable presence too, and someone who has excellent link-up play in Forlan, in addition to two wing-backs who provide a deluge of crosses from wide. Likewise Forlan has a centre-forward to play alongside, link-up with (Crespo wasn't a limited target man up front and had decent link-up play as his games with Shevchenko at Milan and Vieri at Inter iirc, would testify), freedom to move between the lines, drop deep or move up top etc. So I don't see an overlap there or how they are in-complementary in any way.
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Not that I don't agree with you mate, and Forlan certainly dropped deep as I've put it above, but to me it was Aguero in the more free roaming role rather than Forlan. From memories Forlan was a bit higher on the pitch than Aguero usually. Aguero also was left winger in some games with Forlan up on top. Agreed that they it was high mobile frontline and the ran into channels but this goes back to my point that I'd pair Forlan with a bit more energetic forward that has pace, technique and can stretch the defence, which is not Crespo.
It is debatable as Forlan was at his peak at the time and Aguero young and developing so naturally not as consistent as in his later years, so that's to be expected. I think that free roaming role will drag him outside the box and near the box quite a bit running into space to receive and ask for the ball which takes away his presence in the box.
Yeah it's no question for me if you can play Forlan as a SS or wide forward role, he can of course. For me tho if you stick him in Crespo's position with another forward in that roaming role it would be better. In that case you have the mobile and dynamic forward pair, you don't lose the finishing ability of Crespo as Forlan brings the same to the table, and you can field a forward that would be better in that supporting role, that's my take at least.
not questioning their overall game and admittedly they played in a different formation, but IMO in this set up you have you can acommodate a better free roaming forward instead of Forlan to work with Crespo or the other way around to create a dynamic front two in the Forlan/Aguero mold. You do have creativity from midfield no question about it, however I'm not sure how much Alonso and Dunga will contribute as they have the holding role in this draft where you usually have 3 central midfielders and generally more packed center half so probably they will have their hands full most of the time and IMO you'll need some additional creativity.
Congrats on your win btw and good luck forward.
Makes sense, he's basically playing like any dynamic left second striker would. Just got confused by the arrow in the formation, that he was previously used as a left winger and the "abundance of offensive width" talk. If there is one thing a winger-less formation naturally lacks it is certainly width and the only way I could see it having "an abundance" of it would be if Forlan was considered to provide a lot of width on the left. Not that you need wingers, just why I got a bit confused by the OP.
Fair enough, given their interchangeable roles for Atletico I can understand how it's open to different interpretations.
I don't mind both variations really, Forlan with another roaming forward or Forlan with a spearheading goalscorer. Both have their own merits and limitations.
Disagree with that, there is no need for additional creativity imo, esp with Häßler of all people being in front of Alonso and Dunga. I've banged on repeatedly about Alonso's playmaking ability, whilst Dunga is as good as it gets in a supporting role on the ball creatively. There's more than enough creativity to go around.
Thanks.
Oh that's fair enough I reckon.
Some good arguments here and I certainly agree with elements of it. I think the general view that a Forlan/Crespo partnership isn't similar to the Atletico partnership with Aguero is a fair one. I don't see them operating in a similar way with Crespo being much more of a target striker himself.Didn't want to get into a deeper discussion during the game not to influence the voters with my opinion, but here goes:
I think the position you are describing is more of what Kun did when they both played together rather than Forlan. Forlan was the central forward and dropped deep, but it was Kun with the more free role:
Example of the game vs Fulham in EL.
^^ vs Valencia
vs Villareal
For me during his best time in AM he was the central forward and the main man.
The role you are describing is more of his Uruguay role where he played off Suarez.
There you have a point, but here we're talking about the league and to be honest I can see Suarez and and Kun a lot closer to the style that would make a much better match when you use Forlan in a combination of front 2.
Now for Crespo I can see him doing well in 4-3-3 as a lone up top and/or in 4-4-2 but in the same position Forlan occupied in Atletico. At Lazio he played in close to the same role as Forlan at AM and Claudio Lopez was on the leftish role feeding off him. In Milan he played with Sheva, but then Sheva is a bit different because his versatility helped him play with pretty much anybody apart from Crespo.
For me Crespo was best in his Lazio years, really deadly and possibly in his best shape in his career. Put Aguero next to him and I'd like that, Forlan... not so much. I think a lot of their roles and qualities will overlap and you can't get the best out of them in that formation.
I would also say that Forlan struggled massively to link up with or form any sort of partnership with Ruud when he was at United, who is much more similar in style to Crespo than he is to Aguero or Suarez.
The issue I had originally with the partnership is that it doesn't have a lot of creativity, which IMO is vital in a 3-5-2 given the defensiveness of the system elsewhere. I would have preferred more of a creative second striker than Forlan in that role.
The 4-4-2 system employed at Atletico had more variety to the offence. I think the partnership with Crespo is less fluid than Aguero/Forlan anyway, and IMO it wouldn't translate as well to a 3-5-2.
It's obviously more similar to the system with Uruguay, but that team played as more than the sum of its parts and I don't think its comparable to this side.
It's interesting because they struck up a good partnership but I don't remember any of Forlans or Suarez goals in 2010 which came from interplay with one another. From recollection Forlans goals were long shots/set pieces and Suarez scored that great goal against Korea.
Hierro and Ferrara are the best of the bunch, in terms of the well-known CB. Your German CB, although hailed by Kickers as having 3 'WC seasons', strangely not much information about him.
What about Bergomi?
Of course he's too. Sorry. Totally forgot about him.
But, to be honest with you, I still don't get the hype about Bergomi. Imho, he's good, but can't see why so many considered him as one of GOAT cb. I might need to watch more games of his.
Don't worry about it. In the best 11's of the players that were blocked and the line ups suggested I forgot Diego fecking Maradona.
Poor man Charlie "the pivot" Adam.Don't worry about it. In the best 11's of the players that were blocked and the line ups suggested I forgot Diego fecking Maradona.
I think you could make a case for Hierro, Ferrara, Bergomi, Thiago Silva, Godin etc. But I don't really rate any of those and the others as a cut above the rest. Bergomi is probably the greatest in an all-time context, but I'd see him as a RCB or RB as much as anything else. I mean he's probably in the top 3 defensive right-backs of all time, but isn't on the same rarefied level as a centre-half. Of course he was very good there, particularly as a roaming man-marker.
@Šjor Bepo @anant are very lucky in this competition but luck is part of the game (previous game: penalties against EAP).
Always surprising to see a disqualified team comprising Bergomi/David Alves/Roberto Carlos/Ferri/Crespo/Xabi Alonso/Forlan
Hassler-Crespo-Forlan are all fantastic players but their complementarity is not very obvious to all while the winner could rely on the proven pair Enrique-Kluivert.
Congrats to all
Always surprising to see a disqualified team comprising Bergomi/David Alves/Roberto Carlos/Ferri/Crespo/Xabi Alonso/Forlan
Hassler-Crespo-Forlan are all fantastic players but their complementarity is not very obvious to all while the winner could rely on the proven pair Enrique-Kluivert.
Congrats to all
It is an interesting draft that way. Usually the greatest players stood out for some great NT or European performances and the amount who had flawless league seasons are way more common. It is a lot harder to try and separate the individuals and I think prejudism about the player will be the deciding factor for a lot of voters. In most drafts people will remember watching the players at the latter stages in the CL or in some national team tournament and base a lot of their view on the player on that.
Honestly have a hard time myself with plenty of these players when you have to take out the CL/WC performances from their record.
I don't get it. Did we lose? Are we disqualified?
@Downcast we lost mate and we didnt win the first game on penalties.....
good, im not the only one that doesnt get itI don't get it. Did we lose? Are we disqualified?
Sorry guys !!!
I thought Sjor won 11-10 but I have just seen Balu won 12-11 at the finish line.
I thought Sjor won 11-10 but I have just seen Balu won 12-11 at the finish line.
@Šjor Bepo Thanks for your gifs, you started an impressive recovery.
Nice game in any case with some twists
Nice game in any case with some twists
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Actually Joga won, I'm just the noisy sidekick
./edit:
and if it was my team, it would have ended in penalties. It always does
.Couldn't be more German if you tried.Actually Joga won, I'm just the noisy sidekick
/edit:
and if it was my team, it would have ended in penalties. It always does
Except the winning the penalties part...
He tends to be a little overrated because of the fact that he makes it into most people's Italy All-time XI. And in the eyes of people it makes him the equal of Scirea, Baresi, Maldini and Facchetti, when in fact the pool of Italian right backs is just not that impressive compared to CB's and LB's. He was a world-class defender though and an outstanding man-marker, which is why he can be used anywhere across the back four or five, just a little short of the true GOAT level (but in this draft, with so many players blocked, he is obviously one of the best defenders, if not the best)
Really? I've barely seen anyone rate him as an equal to those defenders.
It's all relative really, as ball-playing centre-backs, wing-backs tend to get more recognition etc. In his position, only Thuram, Vogts and Burgnich are in his tier imho, as Gio aptly stated one of the top 3 defensive FBs ever. Also I don't think there is a better defender than him in this draft by a considerable margin, he is one of the very few all-time greats remaining in the pool alongside Cafu etc. But hey, ho let's not start that debate as it's very subjective and we can go all day debating about the definition of GOAT, player preferences etc.
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He's definitely not overrated in my eyes, I think people tend to have a good view of him as one of the very best in his very unique role as a RB/RCB sort of defender.
Not consciously, but the company he is in elevates him, imo