La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - QF Marty1968 vs Skizzo/Pat_mustard

Who will win with player peaks in the specified leagues (not career peaks)?


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Skizzo

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I know he was brought up a little in the last match too, but it's probably worth looking at again since there's quite a gulf between the two keepers on show here.

So there's a few seasons mentioned for us to look at Lehmann here, so I thought we could take each one at a time.

Schalke was the start. Didn't get off too convincingly.


Dortmund probably went a little better...




Maybe not...And here he is at Stuttgart, assured as ever.


So while he may have had his good moments, it's clear throughout his career that he has some errors in him, which is another factor in a match like this.

All that being said, he might be off the pitch taking a piss anyway...

 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Whether Zamorano is going to be effective in this role is down to personal opinion. I think he'd still do well with the incredible talent and creativity around him which I have.

Besides Zamorano I have the two most prolific scorers on the pitch in Bale and Neymar both of whom average over a goal every other game.
I don't think the stats support that at all. Even leaving out Zamarano's relatively low-scoring stint at Sevilla, Bebeto had a significantly better scoring record during his 4 seasons at Deportivo than Zamarano did in his 4 seasons at Real Madrid:

Zamarano: 77 in 137 = 0.56
Bebeto: 86 in 131 = 0.65

As for the others, Bale and Neymar's tally across their 3 seasons at extremely talent-heavy and dominant Real and Barca teams is indeed better than Klinsmann' best consecutive 3 year stint in the Bundesliga:

Bale: 43 in 76 = 0.57 goals per game
Neymar: 52 in 85 = 0.61
Klinsmann: 48 in 91 = 0.53

Factor in the much more dominant teams Neymar and Bale have played in and its rather marginal. We've got a significant advantage in the supporting cast too:

Hierro: 21 goals in 37 games in what I think was his 1 full season in central midfield, followed by two more seasons where he hit double figures.
Moller: a near 1 in 3 record across the best part of a decade, 7 seasons where he hit double figures in the league, with a best tally of 16 in 32 games.
Baraja: 43 goals in 285 La Liga game (0.15) is identical to Seedorf's 59 in 396 Serie A games (0.15).
 

Skizzo

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I think he's a better right back than a central midfielder in a diamond.

Zanetti could play across the park and was always a competent midfielder but it was never his best role.
We'd agree that right back was his stand out position, but I'd say that calling him "competent" in midfield is a huge disservice.

He won a treble there. He played there with Maicon as right back, and was intelligent enough to know when to cover and when to attack himself.

Obviously we may disagree, and that's ok :) but we think he's well suited to that role. Especially when considering Gattuso appears to be playing a holding role on the opposite side.

Cheers for the feedback though :)
 

harms

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Not to mention that they both play in dominant teams, which you don't have here.
To be fair Bale played for an average Spurs team and for a weak Wales - yes, those teams should not be included in the La Liga league peak, but when he was "given a chance" to play for a lesser team he shone brightly anyway, so it's unfair to say that he can only play for a dominant side to be successful
 

harms

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and I can see him working well playing to his strengths, with good movement and exceptional ability in the air
How so? He plays against Ruggeri, who is the very definition of a physical defender and monster in the air (best in the draft, probably, in this capacity), and Chiellini, who has the same strengths (even if I think that he's overrated).
 

Skizzo

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To be fair Bale played for an average Spurs team and for a weak Wales - yes, those teams should not be included in the La Liga league peak, but when he was "given a chance" to play for a lesser team he shone brightly anyway, so it's unfair to say that he can only play for a dominant side to be successful
True, but his goal record also drops for both. That's not factoring him being the main man for Wales, or playing a completely different position for Spurs.

I get what you're saying though :)
 

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I'm a wee bit wary about the Zamorano stuff. Almost every striker from back in the day played in two striker systems, that in itself is not a reason to challenge their suitability for the role. We need to get into the why he wouldn't be good there. To be fair, the rationale put forward that he'd prefer crosses slung into the box for him to attack is a fair one. That said, he was a solid all rounder though so it's hard to envisage that he'd not do a half-decent job of occupying the centre-halves and doing some of the foil stuff for the more direct threats from out wide.
 

Theon

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We'd agree that right back was his stand out position, but I'd say that calling him "competent" in midfield is a huge disservice.

He won a treble there. He played there with Maicon as right back, and was intelligent enough to know when to cover and when to attack himself.
I don't think it is personally and that's my honest view. Particularly in the context and standard of this draft competent generally is how I would describe his performances in midfield.

That's how I remember it anyway. And in terms of that '09/'10 Inter Milan team that you brought up I think both Cambiasso and Sneijder were more instrumental to the midfield.

Like I said though, Zanetti's intelligence and sheer physicality made him an all round footballer and he could play anywhere on the pitch to a good level.
 

Moby

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Havent played 16 yet, why do you ask? Is he listed as competent on there? :lol:
Haven't gotten my hands on 16 much yet but figured that you were a FM player after you listed his secondary position as competent. :lol:

We should absolutely have a FM draft where the match results are compiled by the FM engine. Perhaps someone like @Earthquake or other FM experts can handle the technical aspect. We have databases all over the place for older players and people here run custom sims all the time.

The managers can submit the tactical details to be put for their teams and everything.
 

Skizzo

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Haven't gotten my hands on 16 much yet but figured that you were a FM player after you listed his secondary position as competent. :lol:

We should absolutely have a FM draft where the match results are compiled by the FM engine. Perhaps someone like @Earthquake or other FM experts can handle the technical aspect. We have databases all over the place for older players and people here run custom sims all the time.

The managers can submit the tactical details to be put for their teams and everything.
:lol: those were Theons words, I just re-used them. I don't think Zanetti was close to just competent in any position he played, personally.

The FM draft sounds like it would be good for shits and giggles. Someone needs to get on that :)
 

Moby

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The FM draft sounds like it would be good for shits and giggles. Someone needs to get on that
Someone just needs to create the database. Rest is pretty easy.
Can download a classic database, and then make that as player pool for drafting so that the FM mod doesn't have to create new profiles.
Then just edit the teams when the drafting is done and arrange friendlies. Can be done.
 

Theon

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How so? He plays against Ruggeri, who is the very definition of a physical defender and monster in the air (best in the draft, probably, in this capacity), and Chiellini, who has the same strengths (even if I think that he's overrated).
I'm talking about how Zamorano would work in Martys team and interact with the other forwards tactically. I wasn't taking about how he matches up with Skizzo's defenders individually.

My point was that a direct forward like Zamorano would IMO work just as well with Neymar/Bale as an striker of a different type, someone who was more of a technician. As I see it the result will make the attack more direct at times but I don't think that's a problem, and his offensive movement should create space for Scholl, Seedorf and Neymar in particular.

FWIW I believe that he's a match for Ruggeri in the air, as his leap was ferocious and so much of a players offensive aerial threat is due to movement and ability to sniff out space.
 

Skizzo

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I'm a wee bit wary about the Zamorano stuff. Almost every striker from back in the day played in two striker systems, that in itself is not a reason to challenge their suitability for the role. We need to get into the why he wouldn't be good there. To be fair, the rationale put forward that he'd prefer crosses slung into the box for him to attack is a fair one. That said, he was a solid all rounder though so it's hard to envisage that he'd not do a half-decent job of occupying the centre-halves and doing some of the foil stuff for the more direct threats from out wide.
Granted it probably sounds like not-picking, but at this stage of the drafts, that's what it comes to at times. Figuring out who is doing a better, or worse, job of getting the best out of the sum of the parts.

Zamorano's physical game, and aerial threat, is well marshaled by the center backs, especially Ruggeri.

So looking at his all round game, does he bring enough from his all round game to get the best out of Neymar and Bale? I think it's a huge ask, especially as he wont vacate the space that both like to run into. As him being the link up for those two? I always saw him more as the one to try and add the finishing touch, rather than be the selfless forward to link play for Neymar.

For all that focus, there's still the issue on the other end of Gattuso playing some kind of Makelele role. Especially against the likes of Moller, who has Klinsmann/Bebeto ahead of him.

With that in mind, I think we have the better set up to get the best out of our attackers, and the better set up to handle the opposite threat.

Although of course I'd see it as such :)
 

Moby

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Do people rate Zamorano higher than Salas? I've always preferred El Matador out of the two. I believe based on these three league's form there isn't much but Salas was phenomenal at River.
 

Earthquake

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Haven't gotten my hands on 16 much yet but figured that you were a FM player after you listed his secondary position as competent. :lol:

We should absolutely have a FM draft where the match results are compiled by the FM engine. Perhaps someone like @Earthquake or other FM experts can handle the technical aspect. We have databases all over the place for older players and people here run custom sims all the time.

The managers can submit the tactical details to be put for their teams and everything.
If you wanted to use current players, it'd be really easy to shuffle players about, or even build some custom teams and a custom competition for them to battle it out(quite time consuming though). Might be difficult to lock them to preferred formations, but you could add a twist where as part of the the drafting process you have to draft a manager too. So you'd not only be drafting by player, but trying to match them with the best possible manager who plays in the style you envision.
 

Enigma_87

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Do people rate Zamorano higher than Salas? I've always preferred El Matador out of the two. I believe based on these three league's form there isn't much but Salas was phenomenal at River.
I do definitely. Salas was pretty enjoyable at Lazio, but IMO Zamorano is better and as well better choice for a 4-3-3. I always felt that although not much between them but Zamorano made the best of his career performing more consistently to his best level.
 

Enigma_87

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How so? He plays against Ruggeri, who is the very definition of a physical defender and monster in the air (best in the draft, probably, in this capacity), and Chiellini, who has the same strengths (even if I think that he's overrated).
pretty much spot on IMO.

Skizzo/Pat CB pair is perfectly equipped to deal with Zamorano. The problem might come dealing with Neymar/Bale cutting in. While I think Ruggeri is class and I won't question him dealing with that task, Chiellini is more of a suspect in that area.
 

Skizzo

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pretty much spot on IMO.

Skizzo/Pat CB pair is perfectly equipped to deal with Zamorano. The problem might come dealing with Neymar/Bale cutting in. While I think Ruggeri is class and I won't question him dealing with that task, Chiellini is more of a suspect in that area.
Lizarazu will be up to that though. Don't think Bale will have an easy time with that, and there's no one really making an overlap on that side that Lizarazu needs to be concerned about. Babbel pushing that far up will be suicide when the rest of marty's defense is paired up 1 v 1 with Klinsmann/Bebeto/Moller.

Plus with Zamorano there, and Bale and Neymar cutting in, they're basically collapsing into their space. With Chiellini, Ruggeri, Lizarazu and Mannini back, and Zanetti dropping in to help with Neymar, I just don't see a clear route through.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Do people rate Zamorano higher than Salas? I've always preferred El Matador out of the two. I believe based on these three league's form there isn't much but Salas was phenomenal at River.
Yeah I think so. I have fonder memories of Salas, namely his great performance against England right before he made the move to Europe IIRC, but Zamarano had the more impressive career IMO.
 

Tuppet

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On Skizzo's team I rate Klinsmann and Bebeto higher than most I suppose and I think thats a cracking partnership. At the same time I don't like Zanetti's role at all. He is obviously a good midfielder but atleast to me he is the best player on the park and I would rather see him on his best position. In the draft world Zanetti can shut out the best wingers/Inside forwards and I would totally buy him completely nullifying Neymar. As it is I find it hard to see the point of Mannini (Who I don't know much about) and if Zanetti is busy defending against Neymar it makes the "midfield battle" more equal for Marty. The other problem is I don't totally understand Hierro's role here. It seem he is not holding midfielder but rather more box to box, which is fine and he can do a job there as well I would personally prefer him in a more defensively solid Pirlo role, taking on and mostly winning with Scholl. I am also not a big fan of Chiellini, and while Ruggeri is certainly class, him spending only 1 albeit a pretty good season in la liga could be contentious.

For Marty's team, the obvious problem is Guttoso's role. He is just not the type of player to sit back and be disciplined. He would definitely leave some holes for Moller to exploit. His wings are fantastic and while Benarrivo might get underrated, him and Neymar on left side is the obvious route for him. I see no problems in Zomorano's role, although on talent he is the third best striker on the pitch. I rate Marty's defense better and he would need them to play out of their skin to stop Skizzo's beastly central threat.

All in all its the age old wings vs narrow system debate and I can't quite pick a clear winner. Both teams have their faults, but on talent alone I am leaning toward Skizzo's team, although Bale and Neymar can have a stormer and decide the game on their own. If SkizzoPat can put a midfielder in place of Zanetti and move him to right back, I think that would pretty much nullify all of Marty's threat and be clear winner.

Also loved the idea of FM draft, I thought about it before as well. Creating the database would be the obvious problem, the ones floating around for old legends are horrible. Although one can just use the PES database to create the legend profiles (or just PES for the whole thing).
 

Gio

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Do people rate Zamorano higher than Salas? I've always preferred El Matador out of the two. I believe based on these three league's form there isn't much but Salas was phenomenal at River.
Salas arguably generated higher levels of excitement at his peak and before his move to Lazio. He was very much considered to be a potential Ballon D'Or winner at that point. Zamarano probably didn't hit those heights, but he had a far better career and was well proven across the board.
 

Skizzo

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I can imagine that being their plan going forward if they get through this.
Basically.

@Tuppet it's set up because with Gattuso playing a DM role like we thought he would, Baraja and Hierro match up to Scholl and Seedorf. I'd still edge that tussle our way, but wouldn't be shocked if it was seen as even. That leaves Zanetti in this role to help on defence, and then step into midfield to give us an advantage there, without leaving Neymar alone.

Mannini, while not a particularly well known name, was a solid full back for a very good Sampdoria side. I'm sure @Pat_Mustard would love to shed some more light on him :)
 

Tuppet

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Its not specific to this draft, but I think somehow Hierro has become the defensive equivalents of Di Stefano in these drafts, can be played anywhere and be considered class. To me his best position is ball playing CB, second best would be a deep lying playmaker / anchor in Pirlo or Carrick mode and no idea how to rate him as a box to box type. I know he played there earlier and was pretty good, but certainly thats not his best position. May be more knowledgeable poster can shed a light on that.
 

Skizzo

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Its not specific to this draft, but I think somehow Hierro has become the defensive equivalents of Di Stefano in these drafts, can be played anywhere and be considered class. To me his best position is ball playing CB, second best would be a deep lying playmaker / anchor in Pirlo or Carrick mode and no idea how to rate him as a box to box type. I know he played there earlier and was pretty good, but certainly thats not his best position. May be more knowledgeable poster can shed a light on that.
Not sure if you had a chance to read through the whole thing (wouldn't necessarily expect you to :lol: ) but when harms raised the question on Hierro earlier..

pat_mustard said:
Mostly due to my aesthetic preference for 4-3-1-2 rather than a diamond in the formation graphic :). But also to indicate a subtle difference in Hierro's role - with his goalscoring record from central midfield and the powerhouse defensive support he's got in this midfield we don't need to limit him to a pure DM/holding role. Rather he can pick his moments to burst forward
He's not in a full box to box role here, but without a designated AM on the opposition, he would be wasted just sitting deep all game and only pinging balls around. He won't be charging up and down the field, but with Baraja and Zanetti both capable of holding at times, Hierro choosing to make a run forward has the potential to catch the defense off guard. As his goal record as a box to box midfielder shows, he's an extra threat when he does venture up.
 

Enigma_87

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I think Gattuso is often played as DM in drafts because of his aggressive and tough nature and how he's perceived rather than what he usually does and where he usually plays. I think he's an asset and with Seedorf on the left, which is proven partnership he would sit very well. However I see them LCM and RCM, not Gattuso anchoring. He's a great engine and adds a lot of steel and aggression but IMO lacks some crucial assets to be a great DM, particularly tactical discipline, reading of the game, agility and passing ability to link the defensive line with those ahead of him.

I still think they should be on one line. You can still have Seedorf running up and down/left the field it's what he does, but same has to be said about Gattuso and have them both holding/box to box in this game.

Given how the teams are set up, I'm slightly in favor of Skizzo/Pat at the moment. Sure Zanetti is definitely better at RB especially since he'll be up against Neymar who is Marty's best attacking asset which makes it logical to pair them both and probably free another midfielder to combat in the middle instead of sort of sacrificing Zanetti in this role, but I think it's a good choice doubling Neymar in this case along with Manini, while at the same time the CB pair is good enough to cope with Zamorano's best qualities. Which leaves only the right flank where Lizarazu is a nice match for Bale.

The midfield battle although influenced by Zanetti covering and moving wide and IMO Seedorf being the best midfielder on the pitch S/P team have a good answer in Baraja/Hierro.

Tight game this I can see it being a rather low scoring one and battle in midfield.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Its not specific to this draft, but I think somehow Hierro has become the defensive equivalents of Di Stefano in these drafts, can be played anywhere and be considered class. To me his best position is ball playing CB, second best would be a deep lying playmaker / anchor in Pirlo or Carrick mode and no idea how to rate him as a box to box type. I know he played there earlier and was pretty good, but certainly thats not his best position. May be more knowledgeable poster can shed a light on that.
That was one of the reasons I wanted to try him in this role, but no-one seems to have watched him week in week out in that era. I've been intrigued by this younger, free-scoring version of Hierro for ages, we were impressed by what we seen and read of him in that role, so we took the gamble.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
Some footage of Hierro in his CM days:

Hat-Trick vs Espanyol:


Well-timed run from CM:


And an enjoyably garbled Google Translate on an article from 1991:


The repeated command of Real Madrid in this league championship rests on an unusual fact: Fernando Hierro, theoretical specialist closing, send in laclasificación of top scorers with seven goals in ten games, similar to that of his partner Emilio Butragueno brand, worker qualified striker.The data becomes more brightness if you remember that Hierro, 23, had added only 17 points in the previous four years.The player, curiously, appeals to a metaphysical concept to explain the phenomenon: "Antic gives me freedom in exchange for goals."

Freedom spoken of iron is but a change of location in the field and, by extension functions.The player explains a commercial simile what their responsibilities Antic. "The coach gives me the freedom to reach the area in exchange for the responsibility of defining goals in that area My role is not strict scorer, for my basic job is to steal balls in midfield alongside Milla. However, after completing this facet, that is, when the team is on offense, I can get on the field. "The work of Mile, is therefore fundamental to the performance malagueño: "Indeed, by its characteristics as playmaker, Milla is a man who acts more delayed, so I covered the back when I go on the attack "Iron .The youth has played a key role in what happened."When the coach told me what he expected of me I explained that my usual position on the pitch was too comfortable for a man my age, who was in danger of settle down. He needed, he said, more responsibility to take match my terms. I have no obligation to score a goal in every game, but if I get to the area is to define. the truth is I did not imagine it could get so many goals. "

In his previous two season in Madrid, Hierro scored seven goals per year.In Valladolid, the two previous campaigns, their contribution in the area had been void: three goals in total.Medium point in their juvenile stage, with averages of 13 and 14 goals per season, Iron debut in First as a man closing in midfield, on the right, forming tandem with Minguela.Toshack, already in Madrid, central and used it as free.Antic, he insists, has given a push of a few meters and freedom, in exchange for accountability.

Antic's opinion


The Yugoslav coach explained it like yesterday: "It's no secret what's going on with Iron is a very skilled player with great ability and sense of space and distance Your additions to the area from behind are perfect, because it has high.. , aggression and coldness when finishing off a goal situation. "

For Antic, "Hierro is simply a player who is hungry for a goal, although he also hope to retrieve balls when to defend." The player, however, makes a more anecdotal reading time living. In his view, the situation is merely circumstantial, the result of a fortunate situation and with little chance of continuity. "At this stage of the championship, think otherwise would seem nonsense". Antic does not share the restraint of his pupil. Much more optimistic, he is convinced that his scoring rate is still exhausting. "Iron is a euphoric man who complains about my views on him because he thinks and says its goals are are more than coincidences I say and I repeat that no. it may happen that, because of his youth, is unwilling to take respdnsabilidad that supposed to be the top scorer. " Iron prefer not to give in to euphoria: "We, each player template, we know perfectly how far we get The coach is convinced that I can score more goals, but I see very difficult to keep a streak like this'm not Hugo Sanchez.. a true specialist. " About Iron Antic has built one of his favorite when defending his work and his job at the opposite attitude of Mendoza arguments: "Your success is my success."
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I think Gattuso is often played as DM in drafts because of his aggressive and tough nature and how he's perceived rather than what he usually does and where he usually plays. I think he's an asset and with Seedorf on the left, which is proven partnership he would sit very well. However I see them LCM and RCM, not Gattuso anchoring. He's a great engine and adds a lot of steel and aggression but IMO lacks some crucial assets to be a great DM, particularly tactical discipline, reading of the game, agility and passing ability to link the defensive line with those ahead of him.

I still think they should be on one line. You can still have Seedorf running up and down/left the field it's what he does, but same has to be said about Gattuso and have them both holding/box to box in this game.

Given how the teams are set up, I'm slightly in favor of Skizzo/Pat at the moment. Sure Zanetti is definitely better at RB especially since he'll be up against Neymar who is Marty's best attacking asset which makes it logical to pair them both and probably free another midfielder to combat in the middle instead of sort of sacrificing Zanetti in this role, but I think it's a good choice doubling Neymar in this case along with Manini, while at the same time the CB pair is good enough to cope with Zamorano's best qualities. Which leaves only the right flank where Lizarazu is a nice match for Bale.

The midfield battle although influenced by Zanetti covering and moving wide and IMO Seedorf being the best midfielder on the pitch S/P team have a good answer in Baraja/Hierro.

Tight game this I can see it being a rather low scoring one and battle in midfield.
Good to hear this tactic getting some love :). We kind of knew it would divide opinion to some extent but thankfully plenty seem to rate the idea. A nice video of him performing a similar role against Milan late in his career:


Supports Maicon superbly, contributes in midfield, provides width and great ball-carrying on the attack, and pops up with the match-winning assist.
 

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Having studied some Zanetti's games during auction draft, I know that Zanetti will do well in midfield in the right setup. Can't always rely on reviews to determine if a player is limited to 1 best position only
 

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Off topic slightly, but how come you skipped a few drafts now?
Busy with real life. The time taken (if done properly) in drafts is more than WW. At least in WW, you can post gibberish for the sake of lolzy. Not in football drafts. Most have little sense of humour (maybe that is just me)
 

Skizzo

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Busy with real life. The time taken (if done properly) in drafts is more than WW. At least in WW, you can post gibberish for the sake of lolzy. Not in football drafts. Most have little sense of humour (maybe that is just me)
Try playing WW in a different time zone. You just spend the whole game trying to explain why you haven't posted all day. Then by the time you catch up, there's 38 new pages. And then after all that you get you slaughtered first night :mad: not that I'm bitter or anything.

You had some good showings in the drafts, just was curious if you got bored etc.