This 100%. So frustrating to see our players panicking each time they have the ball. Everyone bar Pogba, De Gea and even Lindelof, are seriously lacking composure on the ball, considering they are paid a fortune to do exactly this. Smalling, for me, is the main culprit at this. He always looks like he has a mistake or two in him each game. Or maybe it’s due to his awkward passing style. When the day we finally manage our composure and first touch, we will be a force to reckon with.
Lack of composure
- Thread starter noodlehair
- Start date
Our attackers are fast with their legs, but not with their heads.
Composure on the ball is the thing that infuriates me most about the current United squad. The amount of players right now who when they receive the ball their first thought is to pass it backwards the way it came. In some ways to feels like a hangover from the LVG era. This is mostly evident with the CMs but it drives me absolutely crazy when I see Valencia/Young or Martial/Rashford when faced with only one defender on the wings just automatically passing it back 15 yards. Drive at them! Ask questions!
Any player in the premier league (hell, in any of the leagues) can do the easy pass and get good passing stats. What should differentiate a good player is their awareness. As the ball is coming in they should be lighting up and thinking 'is this an opportunity to spark something?'. This is what Pogba gives us, his awareness and touch is such that he can pick the ball up from someone and find a threatening forward pass.
This should be sorted out in training - isn't this what the infamous 'boxes' that Scholes used to excel at (and is probably even now still better than anyone in our team bar perhaps Pogba) is for? It reminds me of the old story about Roy Keane in training when a new player arrived giving them a blast, telling them to stop playing the easy ball coz "You're at United now" (btw - who was the player?)
Argghhh rant mode off
Composure on the ball is the thing that infuriates me most about the current United squad. The amount of players right now who when they receive the ball their first thought is to pass it backwards the way it came. In some ways to feels like a hangover from the LVG era. This is mostly evident with the CMs but it drives me absolutely crazy when I see Valencia/Young or Martial/Rashford when faced with only one defender on the wings just automatically passing it back 15 yards. Drive at them! Ask questions!
Any player in the premier league (hell, in any of the leagues) can do the easy pass and get good passing stats. What should differentiate a good player is their awareness. As the ball is coming in they should be lighting up and thinking 'is this an opportunity to spark something?'. This is what Pogba gives us, his awareness and touch is such that he can pick the ball up from someone and find a threatening forward pass.
This should be sorted out in training - isn't this what the infamous 'boxes' that Scholes used to excel at (and is probably even now still better than anyone in our team bar perhaps Pogba) is for? It reminds me of the old story about Roy Keane in training when a new player arrived giving them a blast, telling them to stop playing the easy ball coz "You're at United now" (btw - who was the player?)
Argghhh rant mode off
We certainly do need composure on the ball but I think we are missing a little in midfield and up front. Someone who can keep the ball at their feet and go past people and open up defences.
Good thread Noodle.
Here's my take on this. Mourinho is not setting up to play defensively, or to park the bus so to speak. It makes feck all sense to think that when he picks a striker, two forwards to play as wingers, a #10/SS, and two wingers as fullbacks from the start. The line up is as attacking as they come. The reason we drop so deep is because we can't hold on to the ball and we hoof it every time we get it, so it comes right back at us. Naturally we drop deeper and deeper as a result and camp at the edge of our box. It's the lack of composure on the ball as you say.
I also want to add say at this stage that I'm not buying into this "too reliant on Pogba" mantra people keep repeating. We all saw the match against Arsenal where we had our 2 best midfielders on the pitch. Yes we went ahead, but we were shit scared to play football for 75 minutes afterwards. We ended up with 25% possession. Yes, we are far more potent on the counter with Pogba instead of Herrera. He can pick better balls over the top to Lukaku and he can also run from deep to create goals. But it still doesn't solve the problem of bringing the ball from defence to the final 3rd with any composure. Pogba is not fixing this particular problem.
Now like you, I don't believe he's telling them to hoof the ball. The players are not responding to the tactics and not performing up to expectation. The thing is either way, it's ultimately his responsibility to fix. I don't know if he berates them in training when they lose the ball in their half or something but our players seem terrified to pass the ball when in their own half. I don't know if the issue is lack of quality or if it's coaching or what. But something's not right. And you can't argue that Mourinho has not had time or money to fix this either.
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Except in the last game, where he was probably MOTM.
What game was that?
Pretty sure most of XI player like Smalling, Lingard, Herrea, Rojo, Young, Valencia played under LVG and they were instructed to keep ball and pass that give them more possession and limit their opponents, a lot of changed since Jose came and all we do is hoof and has less than 30% possession in some games like City and Liverpool game, just because the player can't hold the ball or make a pass? No, they were told to hoof it to the striker, that's tactical Jose set up against opponents. For an example, in Basel games. we had more than 70% possession in first half, it's because we didn't hoof and able to make a pass and press up against the opponents, why can't we do that again? No, that's because Jose changed his minds and set tactical differently in the second half to sit deeper and let Basel play their games, when we receive a ball, we hoof it sometimes cos we hope they'll fell into our hands when we counter-attacked them, it'd only work if we let them have a ball. Or for us having more possession of balls, less the counter-attacking chance will be created so basically we let them have ball most of the time whilst waiting for a counter-attacking opportunity. This is a style of play Jose prefer.
That's Jose's fault, not the players.
We setup deep, we're instructed at times to bypass midfield in order to beat the press.
Under LVG the same players were instructed to keep the ball instead. Not that it was effective but we didn't sit back.
The Arsenal game is a prime example, we started with a high press, we got a 2 goal lead, we still pressed to which at one point Matic is taking a shot at the edge of the box, Arsenal from that counter. Jose then calls Matic and Pogba over and screams instructions, from that moment we sit back. We do this by instruction, its what Jose wants us to do.
Playing the ball on the ground under pressure has never been part of Jose's philosophy and never will be. Its a big part of the reason of why these new age managers seem to have one over him. When he was a dominant coach, teams were just not pressing those well higher up the pitch, post Pep that's probably the biggest advancement in the game and he doesn't seem to be on the train. He see's it as high risk and unnecessary.
All the teams that have had success in recent years against these high pressing teams despite playing pragmatic football all have an aspect of being able to play out under pressure. Juve and Atleti being the most obvious examples didn't win those tie's by knocking hopeful balls up the pitch.
All the teams that have had success in recent years against these high pressing teams despite playing pragmatic football all have an aspect of being able to play out under pressure. Juve and Atleti being the most obvious examples didn't win those tie's by knocking hopeful balls up the pitch.
A person that disagrees that Mourinho's not doing his work will point out that it's reactionary just because we lost. If you look at the "Jose Mourinho assessments" threads, all of these criticisms people have had of Mourinho since last year. I want better quality players bu they're not the main problem, it's Mourinho's fault. There is no blueprint for an attacking system; the players don't hoofball because they're limited, they do so because they're instructed to; the players aren't poor in movement off the ball when going forward (not defensive pressing!) because they're all stupid, they're not being coached properly; United players aren't playing short forward passes into open space because they're "technically limited", it's because there are no in dept instructions on how they should proceed with an open field play. It's the management that's the issue, he doesn't know how to coach an attack and he doesn't know how to improve individual players.
People say "but it's counter attacking football!!!!" when what we do is simply utilize the pace of our forwards and Pogba's long-range genius, which tends to be lethal against small and mid-table teams. Even if Mourinho had an in depth counter-attacking system, being a counter-attacking team does not mean that you should forsake all ability in retaining possession. it's fine to make counter-attacks our main weapon, PSG, Madrid, and Chelsea have done it, what's not fine is to make it your ONLY effective method of open field play.
In a way the only reason I'm glad Jose came to us, is because he has the "face" to bring in world star players like Pogba.
People say "but it's counter attacking football!!!!" when what we do is simply utilize the pace of our forwards and Pogba's long-range genius, which tends to be lethal against small and mid-table teams. Even if Mourinho had an in depth counter-attacking system, being a counter-attacking team does not mean that you should forsake all ability in retaining possession. it's fine to make counter-attacks our main weapon, PSG, Madrid, and Chelsea have done it, what's not fine is to make it your ONLY effective method of open field play.
Good post. We all know Lukaku has poor first touch ball control and hold up play, but what Mourinho did was specifically play to those weaknesses throughout the entire match.
In a way the only reason I'm glad Jose came to us, is because he has the "face" to bring in world star players like Pogba.
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The lack of composure comes from the negative tactics Pep employed. He was afraid of the mighty Man Utd's counter-attack. He dropped Sterling into midfield to stop us from getting the ball and so punishing his team on the break. This meant that when we did get the ball we weren't comfortable with it and felt like we had to do too much, hence the lack of composure. He is an enemy of football with his negative ball-hogging ways. The media didn't even remark that he fielded no striker for large portions of the game, an obvious negative tactic. How can you score if you have no striker? It's clear anti-United bias. Pep out!
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Our team is held back because it is filled with fear. They know that if they make a mistake that will be a death knell for them and they will be out of the team for a long period.
Gone are the days of Fergie encouraging the players to have fun and express themselves on the pitch. I don't blame Herrera for "forgetting" how to play football. Our tactics to "keep it safe" in the big games are the main culprits. If Guardiola was our manager (I'm not saying I prefer him over Mourinho bla bla) but he would feast with players like Martial, Rashford, Lingard, Lukaku, Mkh, Mata. Lingard would be our Sterling.
Gone are the days of Fergie encouraging the players to have fun and express themselves on the pitch. I don't blame Herrera for "forgetting" how to play football. Our tactics to "keep it safe" in the big games are the main culprits. If Guardiola was our manager (I'm not saying I prefer him over Mourinho bla bla) but he would feast with players like Martial, Rashford, Lingard, Lukaku, Mkh, Mata. Lingard would be our Sterling.
Herrera under Pep would be something to see.. He has turned Fernandino into a top top player and that clearly shows what kind of an effect Pep has on a player. Herrera was a fantastic player under Bielsa and has shown glimpses here. His quick pass and move was just great to watch and his engine was never really up for debate.. I just feel for him sometimes because bar Mata and Lingard there isn't really many options for him to do that in our team and he has never had long range of passing.. The reason why Fellaini became such an important player for us is because our setup plays to his strength, those lumped up passes from our defense really show his strength.. It saddens me too say it we look like a 80's English club rather than a multi culture modern top club.
Just like public speaking, there are 2 factors that impact on composure: Technical ability and mentally readiness.
Our player’s technical is so average it limit their executions during the match.
We also don’t drills our players enough with it.
During the preseason, I often watch our training session and we rarely do circle drills. When we do you can see clearly how bad our players are at this drill. They manage to get 4,5 pass before someone lost control of the ball or play a terrible pass. It was unbelievable how bad it was. Then you jump on youtube and search for Barca circle drills and they kill it. It is night and day different between the 2 group of players.
For some reason we don’t put technical ability very high up in the list of attribute when recruiting new players and top it up we don’t train them and prepare them enough to deal with pressure on the field.
Our player’s technical is so average it limit their executions during the match.
We also don’t drills our players enough with it.
During the preseason, I often watch our training session and we rarely do circle drills. When we do you can see clearly how bad our players are at this drill. They manage to get 4,5 pass before someone lost control of the ball or play a terrible pass. It was unbelievable how bad it was. Then you jump on youtube and search for Barca circle drills and they kill it. It is night and day different between the 2 group of players.
For some reason we don’t put technical ability very high up in the list of attribute when recruiting new players and top it up we don’t train them and prepare them enough to deal with pressure on the field.
This is exactly what we are lacking. Composure on the ball but we need to bring in a couple of players and allow them the freedom to express themselves.
Happened during the Chelsea game, the Liverpool game.. Even against Watford.. They might not be the manager's instructions but surely he has to do something about it..
Start some new training measures or get a new assistant coach with better ideas.. We can't just keep thinking that we will play on the floor only if Pogba is around..
Maybe we need to hire that passing training machine which Dortmund had during Klopp's reign..
For a team with height we are fecking shit at playing long ball.. Don't know why we even try..
Start some new training measures or get a new assistant coach with better ideas.. We can't just keep thinking that we will play on the floor only if Pogba is around..
Maybe we need to hire that passing training machine which Dortmund had during Klopp's reign..
For a team with height we are fecking shit at playing long ball.. Don't know why we even try..
Excellent thread OP and some really good posts. This was the main thing I took from the game. Our players played with fear. Fear of the opposition and fear of the ball. I know Mourinho's tactics can be negative but I don't see how that should stop players treating the ball like a hot potato. Matic and Lindelof the only players who did not panic and lose the ball. Until this is addressed we won't be catching up with City any time soon.
We don't have enough midfielders and defenders with composure on the ball
It'd be good if we could give mata another run in the team, at least hes comfortable in receiving the ball without shitting himself. Matic showed on sunday he can hold it, if his performance is anything to go by then Pogba who can also hold it and link up play was a huge miss on sunday.
Smallings a good defender but his ability on the ball really does affect us in the bigger games where theres pressure on us. I saw de geas interview with henry where he said the attack begins with him. Hes right but when we have smalling who cant pick a pass it stalls us alot. Its ok against the lesser teams but it affects us in the big games. Lindelof looked good when he came on. Itd be good to see him and bailly as a partnership, even jones in a 3 as theyre all competent enough with the ball
Smallings a good defender but his ability on the ball really does affect us in the bigger games where theres pressure on us. I saw de geas interview with henry where he said the attack begins with him. Hes right but when we have smalling who cant pick a pass it stalls us alot. Its ok against the lesser teams but it affects us in the big games. Lindelof looked good when he came on. Itd be good to see him and bailly as a partnership, even jones in a 3 as theyre all competent enough with the ball
It's not really to do with the players for me - we might miss Pogba, but no great team stops being able to play because of one injury. We've plenty of players capable of passing and moving, it's just that they don't.
It's surely to do with Mourinho and his setups/methods. Conceding possession and worrying more about not losing than winning is always going to lead to failure, or at least a weaker mentality. City aren't that much better, I just think they believe they are. They must go out every week, against Palace or Madrid, and expect to win playing their own game. That breeds confidence, and that's how winning teams are created. That's where composure comes from - believing in your own and your teams ability to thread a pass, take a risk, keep possession.
We might win something (as we did last year of course) playing tight, compact football with a couple of superstar players making the difference, but we'll always be much more at the mercy of injuries and suspensions, and we'll have to hope that in games like the one against City, the opposition aren't firing on all cylinders. An attacking, proactive, possession focused team on an off day struggle to score, a defensive, reactive, counter-attacking team on an off day struggle to stop the opposition scoring!
It's surely to do with Mourinho and his setups/methods. Conceding possession and worrying more about not losing than winning is always going to lead to failure, or at least a weaker mentality. City aren't that much better, I just think they believe they are. They must go out every week, against Palace or Madrid, and expect to win playing their own game. That breeds confidence, and that's how winning teams are created. That's where composure comes from - believing in your own and your teams ability to thread a pass, take a risk, keep possession.
We might win something (as we did last year of course) playing tight, compact football with a couple of superstar players making the difference, but we'll always be much more at the mercy of injuries and suspensions, and we'll have to hope that in games like the one against City, the opposition aren't firing on all cylinders. An attacking, proactive, possession focused team on an off day struggle to score, a defensive, reactive, counter-attacking team on an off day struggle to stop the opposition scoring!
CSKA.
it was only against city where we gave up before we started, I don't think we will make that mistake again
That is the problem, if you play with low defence line, once in possession the passing lanes are limited and you tend to loose possession easily.
See people will complain about a difference in quality in both teams, but those that will be sincere with themselves will know there is a difference in coaching of both teams, the game reflected the managers and their previous antecedants, it wasnt really a surprise.
The problem is that Mourinho is set in his ways, and I keep seeing people comparing our performances when Pogba is in the team and when he is out. I understand when people say we are a one man team and this must be addressed but the problem lies with the manager. If Pogba is out he goes for one formation the 4-2-3-1 and directly for Herrera as his replacement and we all know how that turns outs. If Fellaini was fit ( maybe also due to his contract issues) he would replace Herrera with Fellaini and that is where it stops.
Maybe once Carrick is fit he might use him but in the City game when we were truly screaming out for a creative player in midfield, Mata, Mihki and even Blind (who can also play in that position) were nowhere near the pitch. We have got a good little midfielder plying his trade in Spain at the moment, another who could also be put in midfield or as a fullback on loan at Crystal Palace. I am just saying we definitely have other options but if you don't try those options we will always end up playing the same way and the same dross without Pogba.
Maybe once Carrick is fit he might use him but in the City game when we were truly screaming out for a creative player in midfield, Mata, Mihki and even Blind (who can also play in that position) were nowhere near the pitch. We have got a good little midfielder plying his trade in Spain at the moment, another who could also be put in midfield or as a fullback on loan at Crystal Palace. I am just saying we definitely have other options but if you don't try those options we will always end up playing the same way and the same dross without Pogba.
Aren't these the same guys who passed and passed and passed under van gaal until it became boring??? They have it in them I think, it's just jose not letting them. My thoughts.
Partly, although its a lot simpler to roll the ball backwards and forwards between the CBs and out to the FBs. Also feels like a lot more teams utilise a high press now rather than sit deep.
We need another player alongside Pogba who is comfortable against the press from opposition, whether thats a midfielder with Pogba and Matic, or a wide player who can drift in and help control our tempo. As soon as Pogba is out even our better players seem to go into their shells.
I think they just wanted to clear the area.
I remember when Alan Hansen said way back: if in doubt, launch it.
TBH, I have no issues with defenders hoofing the ball out (at least it gets the ball away from our goal), but once the ball landed in the midfield area, it would always fall to a MCFC player, which was frustrating.
Yes they passed a lot.
But they did safe, back/side passing. Not forward passes.
This is why we were one of the worst sides, when it came to creating chances.
Our players just could not pass forward, even though they were in the attacking third of the pitch.
I agree with many of the posts here, I was thinking about this issue throughout the game, and what you mention in your poat was one of those things. City were lightyears better than us at moving the ball and retaining possession with intricate passing and movement. We actually looked abysmal. If what you say is true about our circle drills then it really is a massive problem that will limit this team even if playing counter attacking football. Jose may be a dinosaur after all.
We should at least try to play on the ground as the long high balls are not picking out our players.
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This was ever present in the last 30 minutes last night. Shocking stuff.
I believe this is part of Pep’s secret: The one touch Rondo drill
This is Barca
This is City
This is Bayern when Pep was still their manager
There aren’t too many clips of us doing it so here are the few I can find
I will leave it to you guys to judge.
This is Barca
This is City
This is Bayern when Pep was still their manager
There aren’t too many clips of us doing it so here are the few I can find
I will leave it to you guys to judge.
The blame should lie on the manager for this, after taking lead teams like City, Chelsea finish the game by controlling and maintaining possession but under Mourinho we are often conceding the midfield and expect our defenders to keep them out.
bit of a pointless thread, the few times we put pressure on city on sunday they were the same giving the ball away, the problem lies in most of our players movement to make space, we are way to static almost all the time. most of the players who are mentioned constantly played possesion football under LVG Although to a pointless degree. its the tactics Jose wants to play, take Rojo in the 1st half must have just punted it aimless at least 10 times. where under LVG he hardly ever done that.
So you think our midfielders and defenders hoofing the ball at any sign of pressure is due to instructions from the manager?
Obviously yes because the same players managed to pass it under LvG. The same defenders managed to pass it in the ground under LvG as he emphasized on passing the ball out from the back.
I think the back passing was enforced because none of our midfielders or attackers were mobile enough to go past the opponents back line. Regardless of our managers when the players have been mobile we have played some pretty good stuff. As soon as we stop, we become lethargic, lack of ideas, and have very few players who will take the initiative and run at the opponents. I think in the last month or so, we have seen Pogba, Shaw, Martial, Young and Lingard attempt attacking runs at the opponents, but this is very rare, and very few other players follow them, so the threat is not so great.
C'mon, we all know you're part of the "We love Pep" brigade. At least try to rein it in a bit when you want to make a point.
We used to pass sideways and backwards under LvG. We are still infuriatingly good at that. Anything past the halfway line though, and most of our players crumble and fumble the ball because that's where the opposition will press them. We may not have Rondo drills everyday in training, but we've got a bunch of technically limited players that have had terrible composure on the ball since forever. Even our midfield maestro Carrick used to play terribly against opposition that applied any form of pressure. This is why everyone fell asleep watching LvG games and wanted him out ASAP.
Our biggest problem with LVG was like you said our ability to hit the accelerator in the final third, but his major issue was we didnt have a team with a Ronaldo, Messi or Robben so it was a filosssofee with a massive shortcoming. Jose's problem is that we cant even play out from the back. The hoof ball was embarassing and ineffective. Luckily we are defensively awesome, very awesome, because our general possession play is pretty woeful. Jose is showing himself to be a dinosaur and no clever press conferences can paper over this fact.